Heresy 135 The Hammer of the Waters

[Black Crow]

Why is Moat Cailin called a moat?

Its a good question which has given me some thought and another reason why I think that it was once a religious site. In Britain at least such sites could take various forms [usually circular] such as mounds, banks, ditches and so on, but usually constituting some kind of enclosure. The ditch might be a dry one, as for example at Stonehenge, or it could be a wet ditch or moat. In the case of Moat Cailin there might once have been a formally defined ditch or moat, or the waters of the marshes might have served equally well, ie; the sidhe hill at its heart might well be GRRM's version of the Arthurian Isle of Avalon.

[Melifeather]

It does make you wonder which came first, the hammer of waters or moat cailin since the name suggests the water was already there. So why destroy a stronghold?

[Black Crow]

Yes, I agree the clues are not definitive and it could go either way, but again I will state that the date, time or period of the hammer of waters is the key to the timeline. If we knew when exactly it happened, I think the rest could be sorted out in a more concrete manner. Maester Luwin puts the Andal invasion after the Pact, but it's a suspicion of mine that the Maesters deliberately manipulated history. If Moat Cailin was built and controlled by the First Men 10,000 years ago, who were the "southron armies" that they held back? The age of the ruin should make any reader suspicious of the Andal version.

Not necessarily. In the first place there's nothing to prevent sacred places of one people being turned into a fortress by others, or even serving both purposes at once. Thus we can easily have a site sacred to the Crannogmen becoming a fortress of the First Men. Indeed it would be difficult to see the First Men building a fortress there before the defeat of the Marsh King.

As to the "Southron armies", being held at bay for thousands of years, their being referred to as such rather than specifically identified as Andals suggests they include those earlier armies of the First Men domiciled in the south.

[King Tyrion XX]

The name Avalon sounds awful familiar :)

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Well! Just going by the in story dates-

If the FM held the area that is Moat Cailin 10000 years ago, then that gives them 2000 years for a group of FM to establish a hold and build. It may have been the greatest hold at the time.

If the Neck and the Stepstones were created at the same time by the crushing waters, as being suggested, then the waters would do away with the great hold of the FM.

This would give the other FM, say the crannogmen or anyone else, to establish a foothold on the swampy area around Moat Cailin and all the rest that came afterwards. Like more towers being built throughout the years by different groups of men fighting one another.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Moat Cailin, like Winterfell, really could have been built in stages. Something happened there, though, that made all future repair or building stop, and that event seems to point to the Hammer. It seems odd that the North continued to use it, but not regularly man it and invest in repairing it. The place gives a lot of characters the creeps; I'm sure they see those "cold northern ghosts" lurking out beyond the light of the cookfire.

So the stones could possibly be from other fortifications or structures nearby.

It's pretty clear though, that the majority of the towers and the curtain wall are fairly demolished. There's not much talk about nearby villages or fortifications being built later. Often these materials are lifted from ruins to be recycled in other building projects. It seems unweildy to cart these gigantic stones off thru the marshes, though maybe the Crannogmen know a way. . .

What I see is that a Hammer of Waters that scattered these cottage size blocks that made up a wall would also take down the smaller stone, top heavy towers. So I am thinking that the towers came after the wall fell.

:dunno:

[Melifeather]

Not necessarily. In the first place there's nothing to prevent sacred places of one people being turned into a fortress by others, or even serving both purposes at once. Thus we can easily have a site sacred to the Crannogmen becoming a fortress of the First Men. Indeed it would be difficult to see the First Men building a fortress there before the defeat of the Marsh King.

As to the "Southron armies", being held at bay for thousands of years, their being referred to as such rather than specifically identified as Andals suggests they include those earlier armies of the First Men domiciled in the south.

The defeat of the Marsh King was only a few centuries ago. Too close to the present story to be before the fortress was built.

[Black Crow]

The defeat of the Marsh King was only a few centuries ago. Too close to the present story to be before the fortress was built.

That actually raises an interesting question and having checked the relevant passage it isn't so straightforward as it appears.

Bran is identifying the statues in the crypts and names one of them as the Rickard Stark who "took the Neck from the Marsh King and married his daughter". He's also said to be the son of the Jon Stark who built the castle at White Harbor, so that would indeed place him about 500 years ago - and 500 years after the keep at Moat Cailin had rotted away, rather than thousands of years ago per the wiki, so in that you're quite right.

Where the problem arises is that the Marsh King isn't referred to as a Crannogman in text, and nor is Marsh included among the Crannogmen names, while conversely we have Bowen Marsh, who may be many things although being a Crannogman isn't one of them. That would suggest that House Marsh was a First Men family who held Moat Caillin, rather than Frog-Eaters.

[Eira Seren]

I don't think so. The phrase "dark magics" is used in the context of the breaking of the Arm, not the Hammer and Moat Caillin, and its also according to the singers - ie; an oral ballad tradition rather than something written down by Andal septons

That could be. However much I might think Maester Luwin is well-intentioned and careful in his accounting, I do wonder

1) Who collected the songs and transcribed them? Hopefully much of it has been conveyed rightly, and 'dark magics' isn't a matter of interpretation by an Andal translator. Or did the songs come from the First Men? They had writing, but also seem to have a transition occurring there, bridging writing and oral tradition, and maybe not all saw the Singer's magic as benign. ETA: I keep thinking about the Roman's, carefully compiling information on the Druids, much of which is considered highly suspect today.

2) Are the songs still being sung? Are they like 'the Horn that Wakes the Sleepers?' and still feature in northern memory? Some threads ago a bunch of the songs were discussed, maybe we should have a discussion around songs again sometime.

3) Even if we leave the Hammer of the Waters and Moat Cailin out of the dark magical stuff, there does seem to be an assumption that these 'dark magics' may have gone into the building of the Wall. If the Singers are responsible for the Arm, the Hammer, and the Wall, why wouldn't they have used dark magic with the Hammer, when they did at the other two?

[Eira Seren]

Ah, but this is where I'm a bit wary cos it aint necessarily so, and there are a couple of quite different possible scenarios.

We're not really given any detail of the conflict between the First Men and the Forest Civilisation, other than that it lasted for a long time. However the context offered in both Maester Luwin's history lesson and the Hedge Knight introduction suggests an initial period of co-existence before it turned nasty, rather than the First Men arriving at Dover and fighting their way northwards. We're probably looking at more localised conflicts spread over a wide area rather than a military campaign as waged by Aegon the Conqueror - or Harren the Black come to that. Such a conflict would also see localised alliances and feuds and account for the crannogmen and the children growing close in the face of a threat to both from a particular warlord or king.

In other words the Hammer of the Waters and the breaking of the Arm may indeed be one and the same and called down from a sacred site now known as Moat Cailin and in this context its worth reflecting that cailín is a Gaelic word for a young maiden and here we have to note that the Sistermen, who are related to the Cannogmen, worship the Lady of the Waves as well as the Storm God. Thus, Moat Cailin perhaps shouldn't be regarded as originally a fortress but as a sidhe hill surrounded by water and thus sacred to the Crannogmen as well as the children.

This is pretty compelling.

Its a good question which has given me some thought and another reason why I think that it was once a religious site. In Britain at least such sites could take various forms [usually circular] such as mounds, banks, ditches and so on, but usually constituting some kind of enclosure. The ditch might be a dry one, as for example at Stonehenge, or it could be a wet ditch or moat. In the case of Moat Cailin there might once have been a formally defined ditch or moat, or the waters of the marshes might have served equally well, ie; the sidhe hill at its heart might well be GRRM's version of the Arthurian Isle of Avalon.

And a lot of these sites in Britain have a kind of causeway or approach built into them, Stonehenge and the Ness of Brodgar both do. Eman Macha in Ireland is built this way, too. When they excavated the mound, they found a wooden hall beneath it.

The other thing about the sites mentioned above is that once they are no longer used, they are often either built over, possibly added onto later or viewed as mysterious and avoided. The hall in Eman Macha was stuffed with items, much of it rubble and possibly refuse. The Temple at the Ness of Brodgar seems to have been given the same treatment. So, the ship was scuttled, so to speak, buried, and henceforth avoided. Stonehenge has seen some use since, apparently mainly religious in nature.

Archaelogists are still puzzling over the apparent abandonment of some of those once-religious sites.

Moat Cailin wasn't really avoided, just repurposed. But notice it was done with timber, a structure that even the builders must have known wouldn't be as long-lasting as the stone in a wet environment. Possibly they had no more stone to work with, or didn't want to expend the manpower and resources to work with the available material from the ruins. Still, it has that air of mysterious disuse about it, used for fortification, but the builders seem to have tread carefully after the moment of ruination? As if to say, 'let's not do too much to offend the northern ghosts. . . ' or as if they'd made a wary deal: use only on an as-needed basis for defending the north, not to set up house and make too much of a hoo-ha about occupying it.

What I see is that a Hammer of Waters that scattered these cottage size blocks that made up a wall would also take down the smaller stone, top heavy towers. So I am thinking that the towers came after the wall fell.

:dunno:

This is a good explanation. To play devil's advocate, supposedly it had more than twenty tours, and only a few are now left standing. Why build the towers but not rebuild the curtain wall?

Unless by that time there was an alliance with the Crannogmen, and the marsh made the castle impassable except via the causeway, so there wasn't a need for one, just the wooden keep? The 3 notable remaining towers are in the right position to defend the whole complex.

[Black Crow]

That could be. However much I might think Maester Luwin is well-intentioned and careful in his accounting, I do wonder...

Even if we leave the Hammer of the Waters and Moat Cailin out of the dark magical stuff, there does seem to be an assumption that these 'dark magics' may have gone into the building of the Wall. If the Singers are responsible for the Arm, the Hammer, and the Wall, why wouldn't they have used dark magic with the Hammer, when they did at the other two?

I don't think we're actually in conflict here, I was just pointing out that the "dark magics" stuff is specifically referenced as coming from ballad singers rather than an historical account by Septons.

[alienarea]

What I see is that a Hammer of Waters that scattered these cottage size blocks that made up a wall would also take down the smaller stone, top heavy towers. So I am thinking that the towers came after the wall fell.

:dunno:

Using logic in a heresy thread, ts.

[Eira Seren]

I don't think we're actually in conflict here, I was just pointing out that the "dark magics" stuff is specifically referenced as coming from ballad singers rather than an historical account by Septons.

Sorry if I came across that way, was just enjoying the debate. You're right, the ballad singers would be a much better source than the Septons. And it seems consistent with the northern views on things like the 'sacrificing to the Others' part of the NK story.

You don't suppose the ballad singers decided to spice things up a bit by calling it dark magic, do you? It makes for a much more interesting story. . .

[Black Crow]

I don't think anything we're told about this far back is reliable.

[alienarea]

I wonder whether the First Men in Westeros had magicans of their own or maybe called for someone from Ass'hai when they encountered the magic of the children?

The order of the Green Men in my understanding implies that the First Men weren't warriors only.

[Melifeather]

That actually raises an interesting question and having checked the relevant passage it isn't so straightforward as it appears.

Bran is identifying the statues in the crypts and names one of them as the Rickard Stark who "took the Neck from the Marsh King and married his daughter". He's also said to be the son of the Jon Stark who built the castle at White Harbor, so that would indeed place him about 500 years ago - and 500 years after the keep at Moat Cailin had rotted away, rather than thousands of years ago per the wiki, so in that you're quite right.

Where the problem arises is that the Marsh King isn't referred to as a Crannogman in text, and nor is Marsh included among the Crannogmen names, while conversely we have Bowen Marsh, who may be many things although being a Crannogman isn't one of them. That would suggest that House Marsh was a First Men family who held Moat Caillin, rather than Frog-Eaters.

I was not the one trying to connect the crannogmen to Moat Cailin, you were. I was pointing out that the Marsh King story was too close to the present story to be a factor in either the destruction of Moat Cailin or part of the hammer.

So now that we've established that the overthrow of the Marsh King is within 500 years and had nothing to do with the ruins of Moat Cailin (and we know that because the wooden structures are said to have rotted 1000 years ago). Furthermore, there's no connection between Moat Cailin and the crannogmen other than the stronghold is at the edge of the marshy bog where the crannogmen live.

As for Bowan Marsh, while his last name is certainly suggestive, we don't have any textural evidence as to where he was born or to what region of Westeros he hails from. The wiki doesn't mention anything, whilst the World app states he's from the "north".

The reason behind the destruction of Moat Cailin has not been explained. We know it was a stronghold built by the First Men and used as a defensive structure to hold the North. There's a tower named after the Children, but whether or not it existed at the time of the hammer, or built afterwards is not clear:

"The Gatehouse Tower looked sound enough, and even boasted a few feet of standing wall to either side of it. The Drunkard’s Tower, off in the bog where the south and west walls had once met, leaned like a man about to spew a bellyful of wine into the gutter. And the tall, slender Children’s Tower, where legend said the children of the forest had once called upon their nameless gods to send the hammer of the waters, had lost half its crown. It looked as if some great beast had taken a bite out of the crenellations along the tower top, and spit the rubble across the bog. All three towers were green with moss. A tree was growing out between the stones on the north side of the Gatehouse Tower, its gnarled limbs festooned with ropy white blankets of ghostskin."

If the Children's Tower was there before the hammer, then can we assume that the Children were aligned with the men that held Moat Cailin? Couldn't the inverse be true and have one or more of the Children sneak inside in order to cast their magic spell inside a structure that they perhaps wanted to do away with? What reason could there be for the Children to want to destroy a defensive structure if they were allies? What if they weren't allies. Would there be a good reason to destroy your enemy's structure? I guess so if it also meant that everyone inside also perished.

[Eira Seren]

I don't think anything we're told about this far back is reliable.

It is known. It's almost as bad as searching for definitive answers on the internet. . .

I wonder whether the First Men in Westeros had magicans of their own or maybe called for someone from Ass'hai when they encountered the magic of the children?

The order of the Green Men in my understanding implies that the First Men weren't warriors only.

Or were they more like Wolfmaid's woods witches? The name Green Men doesn't really fit with Val and Dalla, but why wouldn't there be a group of priest-types as well?

[Melifeather]

A crazy thought just occurred to me. What if Moat Cailin was the first "Wall", and the Children purposely destroyed it, only to have the First Men build the (second) Wall?

[Eira Seren]

A crazy thought just occurred to me. What if Moat Cailin was the first "Wall", and the Children purposely destroyed it, only to have the First Men build the (second) Wall?

That doesn't sound so crazy.

It would likely mean that if the Hammer is a second attempt to separate the land, it must have happened after the Pact (or was the thing that broke the Pact).

[Black Crow]

Now we're looking at this business very closely I'm having trouble separating the breaking of the Arm from the hammer and very much looking at it as the greenseers calling down the hammer from Moat Cailin to break the arm.