Heresy 135 The Hammer of the Waters

[Black Crow]

I was not the one trying to connect the crannogmen to Moat Cailin, you were. I was pointing out that the Marsh King story was too close to the present story to be a factor in either the destruction of Moat Cailin or part of the hammer.

So now that we've established that the overthrow of the Marsh King is within 500 years and had nothing to do with the ruins of Moat Cailin (and we know that because the wooden structures are said to have rotted 1000 years ago). Furthermore, there's no connection between Moat Cailin and the crannogmen other than the stronghold is at the edge of the marshy bog where the crannogmen live...

...If the Children's Tower was there before the hammer, then can we assume that the Children were aligned with the men that held Moat Cailin? Couldn't the inverse be true and have one or more of the Children sneak inside in order to cast their magic spell inside a structure that they perhaps wanted to do away with? What reason could there be for the Children to want to destroy a defensive structure if they were allies? What if they weren't allies. Would there be a good reason to destroy your enemy's structure? I guess so if it also meant that everyone inside also perished.

I did indeed try to link in the Marsh King, but the point I was making and still do is that at the time when the greenseers called down the hammer of the waters, moat cailin wasn't occupied by the First Men but by the crannogmen and the children and that the castle came later after the site was captured by the First Men -where things have changed is that it now appears those First Men were the progenitors of House Marsh [not improbably related to House Mudd] rather than House Stark, and that it was they, not the Starks who defended the Neck against the Andals.

As to the building and destruction of the castle of Moat Cailin, I really don't find anything to connect the children. I'm happy with the identification of the site as being where the calling was done, but not the structures. Neither the children nor the crannogmen do structures. I'd therefore be inclined to see this as the First Men taking the site and turning it into a fortress, initially with wooden walls and wooden towers, trying at some later point to upgrade to stone and failing. Thus the damage to the Children's Tower is down to structural instability and neglect - especially as it may never have been finished - and the rest is just legend.

[Melifeather]

That doesn't sound so crazy.

It would likely mean that if the Hammer is a second attempt to separate the land, it must have happened after the Pact (or was the thing that broke the Pact).

I don't think there's any reason to not believe there were two separate events, but I've questioned the Children's strength of defenses leading up to the Pact. If the First Men's fire and bronze was overpowering the Children, why would they even feel compelled to agree to a Pact if they were in a position of strength? If Moat Cailin was destroyed by the Children, it was a show of strength and ability and meant to bring the First Men to the bargaining table.

I did indeed try to link in the Marsh King, but the point I was making and still do is that at the time when the greenseers called down the hammer of the waters, moat cailin wasn't occupied by the First Men but by the crannogmen and the children and that the castle came later after the site was captured by the First Men -where things have changed is that it now appears those First Men were the progenitors of House Marsh [not improbably related to House Mudd] rather than House Stark, and that it was they, not the Starks who defended the Neck against the Andals.

As to the building and destruction of the castle of Moat Cailin, I really don't find anything to connect the children. I'm happy with the identification of the site as being where the calling was done, but not the structures. Neither the children nor the crannogmen do structures. I'd therefore be inclined to see this as the First Men taking the site and turning it into a fortress, initially with wooden walls and wooden towers, trying at some later point to upgrade to stone and failing. Thus the damage to the Children's Tower is down to structural instability and neglect - especially as it may never have been finished - and the rest is just legend.

I agree that the castle was built by First Men and not the Children. That part seems obvious since the Children are not stone builders, but I am beginning to think that the Children needed to do something desperate to get the First Men to agree to a truce.

[Makrell]

Great discussions :D

I think the hammer has more to do with the andals than with the first men. I dont see anywhere suggesting that the andals ever agreed to the pact, or even had much to do with the COTF. The COTF mightve migrated northward by that time.

[alienarea]

Just a thought: as the CotF do not build structures, maybe the Tower of the Children was a tower where the CotF where jailed up and they called the Hammer down to break free?

And to add one more crackpot: as the timelines are blurry, did that happen before the First Men arrived and Moat Cailin was built by the ancestors of the Others? Who were wiped out by the CotF then and came back with a vengeance in the Long Night?

[Black Crow]

Great discussions :D

I think the hammer has more to do with the andals than with the first men. I dont see anywhere suggesting that the andals ever agreed to the pact, or even had much to do with the COTF. The COTF mightve migrated northward by that time.

I have to disagree. On one level its plausible that the hammer was called down in a vain attempt to hold off the Andals, but Maester Luwin is the key to it being otherwise.

According to his history lesson the greenseers caused the waters to rise and break the Arm, but this fails to defeat the First Men so after much bloodshed the Pact is agreed and lasts until the Andals come, conquering Westeros in their turn [apart from the North] and slaughtering the children wherever they found them. There is conspicuously no mention of the hammer being deployed at this point in either version of the history. Yet Maester Luwin does know of the hammer and references it in relation to the children and the crannogmen growing close. Since he doesn't treat the breaking of the Arm and the hammer of the waters as two separate events its therefore reasonable to suppose that it was the hammer of the waters which broke the Neck.

I dare say the forthcoming World Book will clarify this, but for the moment...

[Makrell]

I have to disagree. On one level its plausible that the hammer was called down in a vain attempt to hold off the Andals, but Maester Luwin is the key to it being otherwise.

According to his history lesson the greenseers caused the waters to rise and break the Arm, but this fails to defeat the First Men so after much bloodshed the Pact is agreed and lasts until the Andals come, conquering Westeros in their turn [apart from the North] and slaughtering the children wherever they found them. There is conspicuously no mention of the hammer being deployed at this point in either version of the history. Yet Maester Luwin does know of the hammer and references it in relation to the children and the crannogmen growing close. Since he doesn't treat the breaking of the Arm and the hammer of the waters as two separate events its therefore reasonable to suppose that it was the hammer of the waters which broke the Neck.

I dare say the forthcoming World Book will clarify this, but for the moment...

But then had the future crannogmen society already grown prior to the breaking of the arm? After how many hundred yearts after the first first men crossed the arm did the hammer occur? If there were several hundred thousand first men in westeros already there is no reason to break the arm, as it would obviously be futile, the children would never be able to defeat several hundred thousand, and if there were fewer first men i see no reason for the first men to move as far north as the neck, as the land further south is far richer in prey and is ample.

[Black Crow]

But then had the future crannogmen society already grown prior to the breaking of the arm? After how many hundred yearts after the first first men crossed the arm did the hammer occur? If there were several hundred thousand first men in westeros already there is no reason to break the arm, as it would obviously be futile, the children would never be able to defeat several hundred thousand, and if there were fewer first men i see no reason for the first men to move as far north as the neck, as the land further south is far richer in prey and is ample.

We're not really given a lot of information on that, but as I said earlier the narrative which we do have implies a certain period of co-existence before things turned nasty, rather than a steady advance northwards. In any case calling down the hammer from a sacred site at Moat Cailin doesn't necessarily imply that the First Men were actually banging on the gates [assuming it had any] at the time.

[Melifeather]

I have to disagree. On one level its plausible that the hammer was called down in a vain attempt to hold off the Andals, but Maester Luwin is the key to it being otherwise.

According to his history lesson the greenseers caused the waters to rise and break the Arm, but this fails to defeat the First Men so after much bloodshed the Pact is agreed and lasts until the Andals come, conquering Westeros in their turn [apart from the North] and slaughtering the children wherever they found them. There is conspicuously no mention of the hammer being deployed at this point in either version of the history. Yet Maester Luwin does know of the hammer and references it in relation to the children and the crannogmen growing close. Since he doesn't treat the breaking of the Arm and the hammer of the waters as two separate events its therefore reasonable to suppose that it was the hammer of the waters which broke the Neck.

I dare say the forthcoming World Book will clarify this, but for the moment...

That is an interesting way to view the text and there's certainly room to interpret it that way. That opens up discussion as to whether or not the Moat Cailin castle was there prior to the Arm of Dorne washing away, or if it was built later. It's supposedly 10,000 years old with Winterfell 12,000 years old. So, did some of the destruction come from the spell that was cast? Are we now looking at a single event? This is definitely Heresy, which we're all accustomed to and open to discussing.

Very interesting idea...

[Frey family reunion]

Why is Moat Cailin called a moat?

Its a good question which has given me some thought and another reason why I think that it was once a religious site. In Britain at least such sites could take various forms [usually circular] such as mounds, banks, ditches and so on, but usually constituting some kind of enclosure. The ditch might be a dry one, as for example at Stonehenge, or it could be a wet ditch or moat. In the case of Moat Cailin there might once have been a formally defined ditch or moat, or the waters of the marshes might have served equally well, ie; the sidhe hill at its heart might well be GRRM's version of the Arthurian Isle of Avalon.

Just a thought but there is such a thing called a "moat" in a hurricane or a cyclone. Basically it is an area between the eyewall of the storm and an outer rainwall. Considering the fact that we also have a Lake called the God's eye (the eye of a tornado is often called by storm enthusiasts as the eye of god) I wonder if Martin is making a subtle reference to a storm pattern that might center from the Isle of Faces. If there was such a scenario and the storm wall was just south of Moat Cailin, (which granted would be a really big storm) then that may explain why Pyke was described by Martin as

The point of land on which the Greyjoys had raised their fortress had once thrust like a sword into the bowels of the ocean, but the great waves had hammered at it day and night until the land broke and shattered, thousands of years past. All that remained were three bare and barren islands and a dozen towering stacks of rock that rose from the water like the pillars of some sea god's temple, while the angry waves foamed and crashed around them.

If we assume that the God's eye was the eye of the storm and Moat Cailin marks the distance to "moat" of the storm, then that would put both Pyke and Storm's end roughly in line with the eyewall which is the most destructive part of a hurricane.

[Armstark]

Yes, I agree the clues are not definitive and it could go either way, but again I will state that the date, time or period of the hammer of waters is the key to the timeline. If we knew when exactly it happened, I think the rest could be sorted out in a more concrete manner. Maester Luwin puts the Andal invasion after the Pact, but it's a suspicion of mine that the Maesters deliberately manipulated history. If Moat Cailin was built and controlled by the First Men 10,000 years ago, who were the "southron armies" that they held back? The age of the ruin should make any reader suspicious of the Andal version.

The following are some passages, that when read together, I feel cast some doubt onto the Andal version of an invasion after the Pact.

Moat Cailin was a stronghold of the First Men.

“…Bran heard talk of Moat Cailin, the ancient stronghold the First Men had built at the top of the Neck.”

“ Catelyn recognized the banner, the bull moose of the Hornwoods, brown on its dark orange field. Just beyond , through the mists, she glimpsed the walls and towers of Moat Cailin … or what remained of them….

….All that was left of the great stronghold of the First Men were three towers … three where there had once been twenty , if the taletellers could be believed.”

The North controlled Moat Cailin.

(per Catelyn POV)

“…It’s said that the old Kings in the North could stand at Moat Cailin and throw back hosts ten times the size of their own.”

“Robb will never look on Winterfell again,” Theon promised. “He will break himself on Moat Cailin, as every southron army has done for ten thousand years. We hold the north now, ser.”

“How will you get the northmen to the north?” her brother Edmure asked. “The ironmen control the sunset sea. The Greyjoys hold Moat Cailin as well. No army has ever taken Moat Cailin from the south. Even to march against it is madness. We could be trapped on the causeway, with the ironborn before us and angry Freys at our backs.”

The Andals are stopped at the Neck

Bran POV per Maester Luwin

“The Andals were the first, a race of tall, fair-haired warriors who came with steel and fire and the seven-pointed star of the new gods painted on their chests . The wars lasted hundreds of years, but in the end the six southron kingdoms all fell before them. Only here, where the King in the North threw back every army that tried to cross the Neck, did the rule of the First Men endure. The Andals burnt out the weirwood groves, hacked down the faces, slaughtered the children where they found them, and everywhere proclaimed the triumph of the Seven over the old gods. So the children fled north—”

I think a lot of the confusion and uncertainty comes from the (likely) fact that neither the First Men nor the Children of the Forests were homogeneous groups. So when we are told for example that southern armies were beaten back for thousands of years at Moat Calin (by First Men) we can not deduct a lot from that, it could have been Andal armies that were being beaten back and that that was MC's purpose all along, but it is much likelier that it just refers to other First Men for the most part.

Ah, but this is where I'm a bit wary cos it aint necessarily so, and there are a couple of quite different possible scenarios.

We're not really given any detail of the conflict between the First Men and the Forest Civilisation, other than that it lasted for a long time. However the context offered in both Maester Luwin's history lesson and the Hedge Knight introduction suggests an initial period of co-existence before it turned nasty, rather than the First Men arriving at Dover and fighting their way northwards. We're probably looking at more localised conflicts spread over a wide area rather than a military campaign as waged by Aegon the Conqueror - or Harren the Black come to that. Such a conflict would also see localised alliances and feuds and account for the crannogmen and the children growing close in the face of a threat to both from a particular warlord or king.

I think understanding this is key, there was no war between First Men and CoF - it was war between parts of the First Men and parts of the CoF (the larger parts of both). In other areas there might have been cooperation and sharing of knowledge between the two races and I believe Maester Luwin refers to those parts when he says that the wise of both races prevailed.

But I also believe that the sharing of knowledge lead to the creation of the Others. because Men would not be sad. Men would be wroth. Men would hate and swear a bloody

vengeance. The singers sing sad songs, where men would fight and kill.

Imagine a First Men warrior armed with the knowledge of the children and worshiping the old gods. He sees the Trees influence dwindle and the old races go extinct despite the Pact. I believe it was such a man who decided to take matters into his own hands. This is also the reason why the CoF did not help in the Long Night: They did not want to break the pact and intervene in the struggle between men. Along comes the Last Hero and convinces them that these are no longer men but Others.

[Black Crow]

Just a thought but there is such a thing called a "moat" in a hurricane or a cyclone. Basically it is an area between the eyewall of the storm and an outer rainwall. Considering the fact that we also have a Lake called the God's eye (the eye of a tornado is often called by storm enthusiasts as the eye of god) I wonder if Martin is making a subtle reference to a storm pattern that might center from the Isle of Faces. If there was such a scenario and the storm wall was just south of Moat Cailin, (which granted would be a really big storm) then that may explain why Pyke was described by Martin as...

If we assume that the God's eye was the eye of the storm and Moat Cailin marks the distance to "moat" of the storm, then that would put both Pyke and Storm's end roughly in line with the eyewall which is the most destructive part of a hurricane.

Interesting one although I have to say that while the account of the destruction of Pyke and the attempted destruction of Storms End both sound very similar, the latter is definitively attributed to the Storm God[s?] rather than the three-fingered tree-huggers, and would account for Damphair's distrust of crows, as agents of the Storm Gods.

However, that being said there is a possible connection in Maester Luwin's reference to the children and the crannogmen being close when the hammer was brought down. As I mentioned earlier there is supposedly a connection between the Crannogmen and the Sistermen and definitely a connection between the latter and the Storm God and Lady of the Waves. Perhaps therefore instead of fingering the tree-huggers for the hammer we ought to consider an alliance between them and the web-footed lot to create the hammer.

While the Crannogmen and House Reed are portrayed as stout and true, there is a bit of an Arkham feel to the Sistermen.

[Black Crow]

That is an interesting way to view the text and there's certainly room to interpret it that way. That opens up discussion as to whether or not the Moat Cailin castle was there prior to the Arm of Dorne washing away, or if it was built later. It's supposedly 10,000 years old with Winterfell 12,000 years old. So, did some of the destruction come from the spell that was cast? Are we now looking at a single event? This is definitely Heresy, which we're all accustomed to and open to discussing.

Very interesting idea...

I'm not sure whether it is heresy or just a "correcting" of a reader myth.

As to Moat Cailin I'm sure that it has indeed been there for a very long time, but like Winterfell I very much doubt that it took the form we see now - even allowing for Cromwell having knocked it about a bit.

[Black Crow]

We're not really given a lot of information on that, but as I said earlier the narrative which we do have implies a certain period of co-existence before things turned nasty, rather than a steady advance northwards. In any case calling down the hammer from a sacred site at Moat Cailin doesn't necessarily imply that the First Men were actually banging on the gates [assuming it had any] at the time.

An obvious historical precedent here would be part played by the Island of Mona [Anglesey] in the Roman Invasion of Britain. Initially it did not come under direct attack, but served as the centre of British resistance, until the Romans mounted an expedition to capture it and destroy the druids and their sacred groves there.

Moat Cailin may have served the same purpose with its capture by the First Men breaking the back of the resistance by the Forest peoples and forcing them to negotiate.

[Frey family reunion]

Interesting one although I have to say that while the account of the destruction of Pyke and the attempted destruction of Storms End both sound very similar, the latter is definitively attributed to the Storm God[s?] rather than the three-fingered tree-huggers, and would account for Damphair's distrust of crows, as agents of the Storm Gods.

However, that being said there is a possible connection in Maester Luwin's reference to the children and the crannogmen being close when the hammer was brought down. As I mentioned earlier there is supposedly a connection between the Crannogmen and the Sistermen and definitely a connection between the latter and the Storm God and Lady of the Waves. Perhaps therefore instead of fingering the tree-huggers for the hammer we ought to consider an alliance between them and the web-footed lot to create the hammer.

While the Crannogmen and House Reed are portrayed as stout and true, there is a bit of an Arkham feel to the Sistermen.

Of course the Storm Gods are given through the filter of the Iron Islanders who would not have had much contact with the Children. So perhaps actions of the Children were interpreted by them to be actions of the Storm God. And it at least appears that the ravens may be agents of the Children as well.

In googling Hammer of Waters, I did notice a phenomenon known as a "water hammer" or a "fluid hammer". Basically when water is moving in a particular direction is suddenly stopped, it results in a shock wave which continues in the direction that the water was originally traveling. Know granted I'm no meteorologist, but if a massive storm did originate out from the Isle of faces with a eye wall stretching all the way out to Pyke and Storm's end, then as I understand it, the water in the ocean and sea would get pushed out away from the storm. If this storm surge is abruptly halted (perhaps by the Arm of Dorne?) then could an ensuing shock wave then be responsible for the shattering of the land bridge?

[Black Crow]

Of course the Storm Gods are given through the filter of the Iron Islanders who would not have had much contact with the Children. So perhaps actions of the Children were interpreted by them to be actions of the Storm God. And it at least appears that the ravens may be agents of the Children as well.

In googling Hammer of Waters, I did notice a phenomenon known as a "water hammer" or a "fluid hammer". Basically when water is moving in a particular direction is suddenly stopped, it results in a shock wave which continues in the direction that the water was originally traveling. Know granted I'm no meteorologist, but if a massive storm did originate out from the Isle of faces with a eye wall stretching all the way out to Pyke and Storm's end, then as I understand it, the water in the ocean and sea would get pushed out away from the storm. If this storm surge is abruptly halted (perhaps by the Arm of Dorne?) then could an ensuing shock wave then be responsible for the shattering of the land bridge?

My first instinct would be to be sceptical that such a phenomenon would have the necessary power. However while looking to the historical creation of the Straits of Dover provides an exact scientific precedent for the Breaking of the Arm, [down to the creation of the Stepstones] we need to remind ourselves that we are in a world of magic and that GRRM has flatly stated that the dodgy seasons have a magical rather than a scientific explanation.

Therefore while the "sensible" explanation would be a massive tsunami triggered by a calving of the ice cap, a massive storm surge offers a "magical" solution which comprehends the children, the crannogmen and the Storm God and Lady of the Waves.

[Melifeather]

Just a thought but there is such a thing called a "moat" in a hurricane or a cyclone. Basically it is an area between the eyewall of the storm and an outer rainwall. Considering the fact that we also have a Lake called the God's eye (the eye of a tornado is often called by storm enthusiasts as the eye of god) I wonder if Martin is making a subtle reference to a storm pattern that might center from the Isle of Faces. If there was such a scenario and the storm wall was just south of Moat Cailin, (which granted would be a really big storm) then that may explain why Pyke was described by Martin as

If we assume that the God's eye was the eye of the storm and Moat Cailin marks the distance to "moat" of the storm, then that would put both Pyke and Storm's end roughly in line with the eyewall which is the most destructive part of a hurricane.

I very much like the visual explanation your theory provides in my mind's eye. I think it's a splendid idea.

I'm not sure whether it is heresy or just a "correcting" of a reader myth.

As to Moat Cailin I'm sure that it has indeed been there for a very long time, but like Winterfell I very much doubt that it took the form we see now - even allowing for Cromwell having knocked it about a bit.

Uh, isn't correcting assumptions what Heresy is all about? :dunno:

[Black Crow]

Uh, isn't correcting assumptions what Heresy is all about? :dunno:

True... true... [sometimes] :cool4:

[Edmure's Floppy Fish]

I have recently started stalking the Heresy threads and this is my 1st post. I want to apologize for derailing the current conversation, but this has been on my mind!

First, and foremost, let me say, I have a tremendous amount of respect for all the heretics. You guys know more about The North, than Old Nan!

So my input/question is this, Could whatever happened at Moat Caillin be a failed attempt to build/construct what we now know as The Wall. It failed because the "ice magic" wasn't as effective because it was too far south, resulting In a flooding, vice a frozen wall. If you look at a map, the southern point of the neck is very similar in width to the current location of The Wall. Maybe the Children chose this spot because of the width of the land mass, but it was too far south and the "ice" the Children brought down eventually melted.

On the same hand, maybe what is now known as the wall is just a frozen example of what happened at Moat Caillin, just is too far North so the water froze instead of flooded. So it could work either way. If this has been brought up before, I apologize. Thanks guys!

[Phillip Frye]

While the Crannogmen and House Reed are portrayed as stout and true, there is a bit of an Arkham feel to the Sistermen.

I think that you mean Innsmouth, not Arkham. <Stares without blinking>

[Phillip Frye]

From where do we reckon that those colossal pieces of black basalt came? Dorne?