Heresy 135 The Hammer of the Waters

[Melifeather]

This thought just came to my mind, I'm not sure if it has already been discussed, I apologize if so.

From Tyrion chapter and the recent excerpt from AWOIAF we know that the water magic of the people of Rhoyne on the Valyrians and Volantenes caused Garin's curse. Is it then possible that the Hammer of the waters by the CotF produced something similar, possibly the first white walkers?

I had proposed a similar thought, but instead of the White Walkers the curse is the wights. Greyscale is the curse on the fire side and wights are the curse on the ice side. Both versions trap the spirit inside.

[Phillip Frye]

& this is no doubt why Moat Callin was built of Basalt... I don't think there is a geological or magical explanation for this occurrence, GRRM just didn't think that deep into it.

Hello, friend! Glad to see you return. Did you convert anyone to your cause on R+L=J?

[Mace Cooterian]

War of the Five Kings: Epilogue

On the heels of the just completed Heresy Project (War of the Five Kings) I wanted to take this opportunity and provide three shout-outs.

First, I want to thank Black Crow for allocating time and thread space to allow this exchange of ideas and opinions. Call it Lady Luck or Fortuitous planning, but BC and I were able to squeeze these five topics into the schedule with time to spare before the release of the World Book, which is currently slated for October 31-ish (crossing fingers as I complete this sentence).

Secondly, a big round of applause should be made to the Heresy community for their support of the projects and staying on topic. It is both exciting and curious to me to watch the progression of ideas and how they are vetted through these specialized topics. The Heresy topics started out as a means by which points and counterpoints could be made on specific topics. During the early stages of the Centennial Project, the projects themselves evolved into a “repository” by which ideas and opinions are now catalogued for each topic so that “newbies” and “senior-posters” have a means to easily go back and gauge for themselves where the Heresy community stands on such topics. NOTE: Thank you to Snowfyre Chorus for the use of the word repository in your Weirwood thread.

Lastly and most importantly let’s take this moment and applaud our editors/authors for their respective op-ed intros. It is very apparent to me from reading the intros that an extraordinary amount of time was spent in the creation and development of these pieces. Words are not available for me to try and describe my appreciation and respect for the effort that was put into these five topics, henceforth known as “The War of the Five Kings”:

Azor Ahai versus the Prince That Was Promised (Butcher Crow)

The Wildings (Wolfmaid7)

Weirwoods (The Snowfyre Chorus)

The Faceless Men (butterbumps)

The Hammer of the Waters and the Shattering of the Arm (Eira Seren)

[Mace Cooterian]

A PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUCEMENT

It was the intentions of Black Crow to leave this thread open for any further comments. While I was compelled to post well wishes above, especially to the authors of our Five Topics please do not take this as a means of closing out this thread. H135 thread is currently running simultaneously with H136, The Heart of Darkness.

[DarkRose_9]

Hello all. Coming out of lurking to post excerpts from the World Book which is fascinating. I am reading on Google books, which unfortunately is not showing page numbers.

Under the heading “The Coming of the First Men” in the ancient history section is this entry:

But the first men grew too powerful, and the children are said to have been driven to a desperate act.

Legend says that the great floods that broke the land bridge that is now the Broken Arm and made the Neck a swamp were the work of the greenseers, who gathered at Moat Cailin to work dark magic. Some contest this however: The First Men were already in Westeros when this occurred, and stemming the tide from the east would do little more than slow their progress. Moreover, such power is beyond even what the greenseers are traditionally said to have been capable of … and even those accounts appear exaggerated.

It is likelier that the inundation of the Neck and the breaking of the Arm were natural events, possibly caused by a natural sinking of the land. What became of Valyria is well known, and in the Iron Islands, the castle of Pyke sits on stacks of stone that were once part of the greater island before segments of it crumbled into the sea.

Make of that what ye will. ^_^

[Mace Cooterian]

Hello all. Coming out of lurking to post excerpts from the World Book which is fascinating. I am reading on Google books, which unfortunately is not showing page numbers.

Under the heading “The Coming of the First Men” in the ancient history section is this entry:

But the first men grew too powerful, and the children are said to have been driven to a desperate act.

Legend says that the great floods that broke the land bridge that is now the Broken Arm and made the Neck a swamp were the work of the greenseers, who gathered at Moat Cailin to work dark magic. Some contest this however: The First Men were already in Westeros when this occurred, and stemming the tide from the east would do little more than slow their progress. Moreover, such power is beyond even what the greenseers are traditionally said to have been capable of … and even those accounts appear exaggerated.

It is likelier that the inundation of the Neck and the breaking of the Arm were natural events, possibly caused by a natural sinking of the land. What became of Valyria is well known, and in the Iron Islands, the castle of Pyke sits on stacks of stone that were once part of the greater island before segments of it crumbled into the sea.

Make of that what ye will. ^_^

Dark Rose-9

Good post and many things are becoming clearer today upon the release of World Book. You are welcome to join the current Heresey Wave (#139) within this forum. Look us up and jump right in.

[Black Crow]

Indeed. I noticed that passage and while short on detail it definitely establishes whatever happened as a single cataclysm. The breaking of the Arm and the Hammer of the Waters were indeed, as we discussed above a single event. It does, obviously, re-raise those questions about the true nature of Moat Caillin.

[Mithras]

When it comes to "higher arts" or greenseeing, Yandel sucks. I don't think what he wrote about the Hammer of the Waters are true. It is funny how the tales about the greenseers he ridiculed are being done by Bran live.

[Black Crow]

Interesting complete page on the breaking of the arm in the Dorne chapter.

[Frey family reunion]

Interesting complete page on the breaking of the arm in the Dorne chapter.

Yea, I saw that. It looks like Martin is straddling the line as to whether the breaking was done in a day or over a period of centuries. If the former is true, I'm holding to my theory that a water hammer effect occured, with a tidal wave breaking the arrm, if it's centuries in the making then I think you theory of successive floodings is most likely true.

[DarkRose_9]

Yea, I saw that. It looks like Martin is straddling the line as to whether the breaking was done in a day or over a period of centuries. If the former is true, I'm holding to my theory that a water hammer effect occured, with a tidal wave breaking the arrm, if it's centuries in the making then I think you theory of successive floodings is most likely true.

It reminds me of geological features such as, say, the grand canyon. Per the theory of evolution, the canyons were created over millienia, but if one subscribes to creationist thinking, the canyons are in fact the result of a single (40 days/nights per Noah's flood) cataclysmic act. Both sides have been argued many times, and I have to wonder if such debates informed Martin's detailing of the events. Of course, when magic is involved...

[Eira Seren]

It suggests to me that if it wasn't a single event, but occurred over time, then for sure Moat Cailin may have been a much older site, perhaps with various purposes, and one that the First Men appropriated from someone else.

[Mithras]

Pyke is neither the largest nor the grandest castle on the Iron Islands, but it may well be the oldest, and it is from there that the lords of House Greyjoy rule the ironborn. It has long been their contention that the isle of Pyke takes its name from the castle; the smallfolk of the islands insist the opposite is true. Pyke is so ancient that no one can say with certainty when it was built, nor name the lord who built it. Like the Seastone Chair, its origins are lost in mystery. Once, centuries ago, Pyke was as other castles: built upon solid stone on a cliff overlooking the sea, with a wall and keeps and towers. But the cliffs it rested upon were not as solid as they seemed, and beneath the endless pounding of the waves, they began to crumble. Walls fell, the ground gave way, outer buildings were lost.

What remains of Pyke today is a complex of towers and keeps scattered across half a dozen islets and sea stacks above the booming waves. A section of curtain wall, with a great gatehouse and defensive towers, stretches across the headland, the only access to the castle, and is all that remains of the original fortress. A stone bridge from the headland leads to the first and largest islets and Great Keep of Pyke. Beyond that, rope bridges connect the towers one to the other. The Greyjoys are fond of saying that any man who can walk one of these bridges when a storm is howling can as easily run the oars. Beneath the castle walls, the waves still smash against the remaining rock stacks day and night, and one day those too will doubtless crash into the sea.

Pyke will definitely be hit by the Hammer of the Waters sent by Bran.

There is an interesting piece of information. Pyke's origins were lost in history. Ironborn are clearly a tribe of First Men, who practiced thralldom. However, how did they manage to build a seafaring culture, how did they start to use iron and call themselves ironborn; these are all important questions. Considering the Nagga's ribs were once a massive weirwood circle and the current islands cannot sustain large amount of forestation needed by the CotF, maybe the Iron Islands were part of the main island but seperated by a Hammer of the Waters.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

The page from TWoIaF on The Breaking:

We have two versions here. What if it is both? The sudden tectonic snafu then abnormal seasons that grew even more abnormal, eventually lasting for years at a time. The suggestion of long hot summers and short warm winters sounds like one long summer.

What seems more plausible to me is the opposite. The Singers begin to meddle with the seasons to flood the land bridge. The manipulation of the seasons is a slow process. Eventually the giants are awoken to bring the hammer down on the Arm. The seasons grew more erratic and have been so ever since.

Also 'giants awoke in the earth' harken back to the tale of Joramun's horn waking giants. I like the previously discussed idea in the weirwood thread that the giants are weirwoods, fwiw.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

It suggests to me that if it wasn't a single event, but occurred over time, then for sure Moat Cailin may have been a much older site, perhaps with various purposes, and one that the First Men appropriated from someone else.

Yes. Running with the info from the world book, the Basalt wall is most likely from an earlier time and people.

An earlier people that predated the migration of First Men. I think it may be these people/race did not belong in Westeros in the way that dragons don't belong there, and may possibly have been dragon riders/tamers, or at the least fire mages of a sort. (The basalt coming from volcanic sources and the deal with Oldtowns lighthouse stone base) Or they got bored and moved on to other lands.

I bet Moat Cailin was chosen for its magical properties. Just one of those places that had the right stuff.

[nanother]

I don't recall much being said about MC, even less about it's origins - what did I miss? Is there a reason to think that MC has the same material as the Oldtown rock?

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Pieces from the world book. Just the black stone blocks that are scattered about at the Moat. There are different stone relics/structures around the world, and some are from so long ago that none knows who the original builders/sculptors were.

The stones are not the same, yet the origins are similarly strange.

[Black Crow]

I think the problem is that making due allowance for uncertainty and above all dates we have a fairly straightforward progression of time which can be broadly likened to the arrival of the Celtic peoples in Britain, the coming of the Anglo-Saxons and then the arrival of Bill the Conqueror to bring us up to the High Middle Ages and the Wars of the Roses. Obviously there are twiddly bits like dragons, dodgy seasons and magick, but the basic background and in this case the evolution of castles is there. Against that we have structures built of an oily black basalt rock which don't appear to fit into that narrative. They just exist with no history or tradition of who built them.

In the case of Moat Cailin we have a ruined castle with no tradition of who built it or who ruined it and a contradictory recollection by Catelyn Stark of a wooden keep within that rotted away 1000 years ago, which allowing for hyperbole and the usual reservations about timelines suggests that the First Men were camping out in the ruins long before the Pax Targaryeana was imposed just 300 years ago.

[Mithras]

The history of Oldtown section changes everything.

How old is Oldtown, truly? Many a maester has pondered that question, but we simply do not know. The origins of the city are lost in the mists of time and clouded by legend. Some ignorant septons claim that the Seven themselves laid out its boundaries, other men that dragons once roosted on the Battle Isle until the first Hightower put an end to them. Many smallfolk believe the Hightower itself simply appeared one day. The full and true history of the founding of Oldtown will likely never be known.

We can state with certainty, however, that men have lived at the mouth of the Honeywine since the Dawn Age. The oldest runic records confirm this, as do certain fragmentary accounts that have come down to us from maesters who lived amongst the children of the forest. One such, Maester Jellicoe, suggests that the settlement at the top of Whispering Sound began as a trading post, where ships from Valyria, Old Ghis, and the Summer Isles put in to replenish their provisions, make repairs, and barter with the elder races, and that seems as likely a supposition as any.

Yet mysteries remain. The stony island where the Hightower stands is known as Battle Isle even in our oldest records, but why? What battle was fought there? When? Between which lords, which kings, which races? Even the singers are largely silent on these matters.

[Summer Is Coming!]

With all of the mention of basalt at Moat Cailin, there is one almost certainly volcanic location in Westeros: Dragonstone.

The descriptions in the World Book of the black base at the Hightower also seem to link the ancient structures in Oldtown and the Neck, despite the current difference in their regard among the people of Westeros.

We also have more evidence of magic involving water thanks to the water wizards of the Rhoynar. If there was a massive amount of flooding due to changes within the ice or ice caps north of the Narrow Sea, perhaps that stirred something up in the Land of Always Winter, starting the Long Night? It would have had both magic and physical consequences.