Daenerys Stormborn - A Re-read Project Part VI: ADWD

[BearQueen87]

I hope their parallels are not that close, although I fear my beloved queen won't outlive the series. :crying:

I think your experience is very apt, you do need checks and balances but that doesn't mean that a system should stay stagnant. Sometimes the only way to change is through drastic measures. You do, however, have to temper that afterwards, revolution for revolution sake is not good either. That's where a Great Council can be very useful.

For what Egg was trying to accomplish his easygoing attitude was not useful, he was trying to revolutionize a system that had been in place for a long time. You have to be forceful when trying to destroy an old system and create a new one.

Dany has already succeeded where Egg failed - hatching the dragons. Perhaps she will be able to accomplish her revolution, although, I think much of it will be completed by the slaves themselves as it'll take time. But Dany realized that she had a power given to her by the dragons to make a difference, she forgot about it, but she remembered again. The dragons don't have to plant trees to do great and good things - they are many ways to change the world. Sadly slavery won't be ended by tree planting.

Anyhow, there is the nice quote from the Dunk and Egg novellas that a good comparison for Egg and Dany:

"You know who I am cousin."

"Your squire is insolent ser. Lord Rivers said to Dunk. "You ought to beat that out of him.

"I've tried m'lord but he is a prince though.

"What he is," said Bloodraven, "is a dragon. Rise ser."

Damn straight!

Speaking of Dragons...

Aemon compares Jon to Egg and tells him to kill the boy and let the man be born. I think the same piece of advice is something Dany learned/has learned/will prove in Winds. She had to kill the young girl she often professes to be to let the woman and Queen be born. And yeah, where Egg failed, Dany succeeded. She has the tools (of a winged variety) to make real lasting honest to goodness change.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Excellent observation and I completely agree with you. :cheers:

TWoIaF

I was actually pleasantly surprised at the similarities between Egg and Dany. They are both idealist in many ways, who want to make the world around them better by empowering the "weak" and downtrodden.

It's funny that it now makes you see that Dany and Egg's journey's have similarities which we never discussed before. Unlike many or most of the protagonist they have lived lives that have allowed them to see and live experiences which most nobility have no clue about. Both Dany and Egg were princess that live simple lives (for a time) Egg by choice and Dany by necessity. Yet, the lessons they learned shaped them into the people they would become.

I feel bad that Egg had such struggle and disappointment in his reign because he was a good man, however, it helps put Dany and her struggles into perspective. Egg had the best at his disposal, an education, the best advisers, a family to love, and yet he still ended up in a similar place as Dany, a girl who had no education, few advisers and no family. The only difference here is that Dany does have the one thing Egg didn't: dragons and that's what will help her achieve what Egg couldn't.

Dany is not going to abandon her people, she's going to save them.

The bolded part is a very good point. I often see some posters make Dany's time in Meereen seem like something that is extremely easy and thus due to her failure they conclude that she is horrible ruler, I don't believe the author expected us to come to that conclusion. Based off Egg(who is educated and had advisers) also having similar problems it seems more to me that the author is sending a message that change and reform is difficult., because the nature of the person and the nature of the task.

I think the dilemma here in Planetos is that most of the people that have the ideas of reform (Dany and Egg) are people that are sweet natured and have a lot of sympathy (based off their upbringing) so they tend to do it in a peaceful way but the catch is that they have to go against their good nature if they want to succeed. On the other hand we have character like Stannis that are willing to be harsh but he won't ever think or plan on change and reform.This is just like ice and fire meeting, someone sweet has to do something ruthless in order to get the job done.

^ I just hope they don't end up the same :(

It kills me completely that this is taken as a negative thing. It's oversimplify what ruling means.

For instance, when we had a civil war here, everybody agreed on the need of forceful reforms because it was needed for the survival and peace of the country and its people. The problem was that the government abused of that power and they ended up murdering more people than the enemies they were fighting, and stepping over human rights. Ironically, twenty years later and with the main responsible in jail, despite we have a government more inclined to not repeat those mistakes, mostly keep asking it to have a "stronger hand" and I definitely agree. A stronger hand is definitely needed to rule. A subversion of this would be the Bible. A lot of rules we find there

are ridiculous now, but in those times, they made sense. Now, as we have

evolved as a society, we don't need them any more. Marriage, for

instance, is not the same as it was back them: now is not wrong to marry

someone who is not from your same land, or you same 'race'. Insist on

using them is ridiculous.

A smaller example is parenthood (which isn't that far from the identity of Dany as a "mother"). When you have younger kids, the rules are definitely more strict, because you are shaping a person: "it's completely forbidden for you to leave the house alone". When the kids are a bit older, the rules don't need to be as tight: "you can go out alone, but return before sunset".

Egg's rule was not a good rule because he became a permissive leader. Maybe her heart was in the right place, but his own children abused his good nature (sound similar?). "Yeah, we're marrying people we shouldn't. Dad will have to suck it". Maekar was also a permissive father and that caused Daeron and Aerion, a drunkard and an cruel idiot. Egg should have explained his children better that if he married the woman he married it was because he wasn't meant to be a King, while they were now princes with different obligations: he did not have a stronger hand with them. And the NEED of having a strong rule with dragons was what destroyed his family at the end.

Your comparison is spot on, \i don't believe it is ever possible to make change by being "soft", cause you're dealing with people that are completely married to their old ways so no matter what you try and do, they are just going to find loop holes to bring their old system back . The children parallel is also interesting, thinking about it Dany was also quite soft on her children (Dragons) after Astapor, it was not until she became dominant and put Drogon in his place then he started to obey her.

Speaking of Dragons...

Aemon compares Jon to Egg and tells him to kill the boy and let the man be born. I think the same piece of advice is something Dany learned/has learned/will prove in Winds. She had to kills the young girl she often professes to be to let the woman and Queen be born. And yeah, where Egg, Dany succeeded. She has the tools (of a winged variety) to make real lasting honest to goodness change.

:agree:

[SeanF]

it would be nice to know what reforms Egg was trying to achieve.

We have reason to believe that both Aerys II and Tywin, as Hand, enjoyed considerable respect among the Smallfolk, even though Tywin seems to have abandoned Egg's policies. Perhaps Egg was in the really difficult position that some reformers have found themselves in, that even the intended beneficiaries of his reforms don't appreciate them very much. At least in Dany's case, most slaves to appreciate being freed.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Speaking of Dragons...

Aemon compares Jon to Egg and tells him to kill the boy and let the man be born. I think the same piece of advice is something Dany learned/has learned/will prove in Winds. She had to kill the young girl she often professes to be to let the woman and Queen be born. And yeah, where Egg failed, Dany succeeded. She has the tools (of a winged variety) to make real lasting honest to goodness change.

Yeah and Dany didnt even have some older Targaryen/Yoda-type figure giving her sage advice like Jon did.

[BearQueen87]

Yeah and Dany didnt even have some older Targaryen/Yoda-type figure giving her sage advice like Jon did.

LOL. If Quaithe is Sheira Seastar (which I believe) then she did, but her Yoda figure totally sucks at giving advice or being in any way helpful.

Speaking of...

according to the worldbook, Asshai is like a terrible hellscape! Why would Quiathe want Dany to go there? Is it to "bring back the light" as it were...

[Dragon's Daughter]

I just powered through most of this thread and I am impressed. I mostly lurk, but it was nice to see a conversation about Dany's arc and Mereen that was discussed in detail rather than just being bashed. I am a big fan of Dany and Jon, which seems pretty uncommon in these parts! Perhaps I will have to join in the discussions in the next couple months.

The comments about Dany & Egg in the last few pages really made me think. Off to re-read the Egg pages in TWOIAF!

[BearQueen87]

I just powered through most of this thread and I am impressed. I mostly lurk, but it was nice to see a conversation about Dany's arc and Mereen that was discussed in detail rather than just being bashed. I am a big fan of Dany and Jon, which seems pretty uncommon in these parts! Perhaps I will have to join in the discussions in the next couple months.

The comments about Dany & Egg in the last few pages really made me think. Off to re-read the Egg pages in TWOIAF!

way to go powering through! Love to hear your thoughts on our upcoming Dany et al re-read

[Fire Eater]

One last thing about Dany's POV I want to mention:

The green sea opened.

A possible reference to Moses opening the Red Sea? Dany is the Moses of ASOIAF. Especially when you also add in her time in the Red Waste as a kind of wandering in the desert.

[SeanF]

One last thing about Dany's POV I want to mention:

The green sea opened.

A possible reference to Moses opening the Red Sea? Dany is the Moses of ASOIAF. Especially when you also add in her time in the Red Waste as a kind of wandering in the desert.

Dany as Moses:-

1. She's in danger as a baby, and has to be taken into hiding.

2. She's marked out for some great destiny, for reasons that are yet unclear.

3. She is appalled by the treatment of slaves, and liberates them.

4. She leads them on a journey to a destination that they have yet to find.

5. She overturns established ways of thinking.

[BearQueen87]

One last thing about Dany's POV I want to mention:

The green sea opened.

A possible reference to Moses opening the Red Sea? Dany is the Moses of ASOIAF. Especially when you also add in her time in the Red Waste as a kind of wandering in the desert.

Yes, I agree that if there is any Dany-as-Biblical-Figure here, she's Moses; like Nymeria was before her.

[MoIaF]

Yes, I agree that if there is any Dany-as-Biblical-Figure here, she's Moses; like Nymeria was before her.

Indeed and GRRM has compared Dany and Nymeria so he is drawing a parallel there.

[BearQueen87]

Might be worth pointing out that Moses dies before ever reaching the Promised Land, though he sees it from a distance, but cannot reach it.

Now I think Dany will get to Westeros, no question. And she'll live there for some time while she and everyone else battles the Long Night, but if we take Promised Land = Dany's concept of home, red door and all, it might foreshadow that our Silver Queen never really finds her idealized version of home.

And THAT is your "happy holidays" message of this morning.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Might be worth pointing out that Moses dies before ever reaching the Promised Land, though he sees it from a distance, but cannot reach it.

Now I think Dany will get to Westeros, no question. And she'll live there for some time while she and everyone else battles the Long Night, but if we take Promised Land = Dany's concept of home, red door and all, it might foreshadow that our Silver Queen never really finds her idealized version of home.

And THAT is your "happy holidays" message of this morning.

Yes I agree with this, and the Moses parallels :) Happy December 22nd to everyone :)

[Fire Eater]

Dany as Moses:-

1. She's in danger as a baby, and has to be taken into hiding.

2. She's marked out for some great destiny, for reasons that are yet unclear.

3. She is appalled by the treatment of slaves, and liberates them.

4. She leads them on a journey to a destination that they have yet to find.

5. She overturns established ways of thinking.

6. She made the Yunkish slave masters allow their slaves to pick from amongst their belongings as reparations for slavery like Moses had the slaves ask for articles of gold, silver and clothing as reparations for slavery.

7. The slavers lived in pyramids while the Egyptians are famous for their pyramids.

8. Plagues afflicting the slavers (the enslaved as well) in the form of the bloody flux.

9. Had a vision that told her to go back to the place of her birth, Westeros. Quaithe tells Dany the glass candles are burning, likely how Quaithe speaks to Dany, using a glass candle. Marwyn describes a glass candle thusly :"it burns but is not consumed," the exact same description given to the burning bush.

10. Is connected with a messianic prophecy (by the time Moses was born there was a prophecy circulating among the Egyptian priests of a messianic deliverer of the Hebrew slaves).

11. One of the plagues of Egypt was fire hailing from the sky. Drogon delivered on that part.

Might be worth pointing out that Moses dies before ever reaching the Promised Land, though he sees it from a distance, but cannot reach it.

Now I think Dany will get to Westeros, no question. And she'll live there for some time while she and everyone else battles the Long Night, but if we take Promised Land = Dany's concept of home, red door and all, it might foreshadow that our Silver Queen never really finds her idealized version of home.

And THAT is your "happy holidays" message of this morning.

That is a really good conclusion to draw from. That is one of her biggest tragedies. What she really wants is some stability in her life, a place she can call home, yet she can never seem to find it.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

6. She made the Yunkish slave masters allow their slaves to pick from amongst their belongings as reparations for slavery like Moses had the slaves ask for articles of gold, silver and clothing as reparations for slavery.

7. The slavers lived in pyramids while the Egyptians are famous for their pyramids.

8. Plagues afflicting the slavers (the enslaved as well) in the form of the bloody flux.

9. Had a vision that told her to go back to the place of her birth, Westeros. Quaithe tells Dany the glass candles are burning, likely how Quaithe speaks to Dany, using a glass candle. Marwyn describes a glass candle thusly :"it burns but is not consumed," the exact same description given to the burning bush.

10. Is connected with a messianic prophecy (by the time Moses was born there was a prophecy circulating among the Egyptian priests of a messianic deliverer of the Hebrew slaves).

11. One of the plagues of Egypt was fire hailing from the sky. Drogon delivered on that part.

That is a really good conclusion to draw from. That is one of her biggest tragedies. What she really wants is some stability in her life, a place she can call home, yet she can never seem to find it.

Plus don't a lot of the followers of Moses die on the way to the promise land? I am not so familiar, but a lot of people die along the way of the very long march correct? Dany has already been through that once to get through the red waste.

[BearQueen87]

That is a really good conclusion to draw from. That is one of her biggest tragedies. What she really wants is some stability in her life, a place she can call home, yet she can never seem to find it.

*silently cries in corner*

Plus don't a lot of the followers of Moses die on the way to the promise land? I am not so familiar, but a lot of people die along the way of the very long march correct? Dany has already been through that once to get through the red waste.

Well it does take them 40 yrs to find (men, they never ask for directions!)

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Moses was a child of three.

[Ser Creighton]

Moses was a child of three.

So was I, and the youngest, number 3. Lets see maybe a little drink of Wild fire, to see if I am a Dragon. Damn no Wild fire, oh wait I got Jack, close enough, I drink enough of it and I probably will think I am a dragon.

You know I am sorry I never had much chance to participate in the re read, but as MoIaF knows my schedule can be very erratic often meaning I am gone for months at a time making it hard for me to participate in anything this extensive.

But I did want to address something. Back when I was first reading Dance, I had some concerns about Dany. As some of you know when I research the books I focus heavily on inverse parallels, themes, cycles and symbolism. So as I followed Dany I became increasingly concerned for her. Old Valyria went to war with Ghis they started out as slaves, broke their chains and eventually became what they despised.

As I read I feared this may be a direction Martin takes Dany. You began to see her drift in certain directions. She began to become somewhat cruel towards her enemies. With the slavers it is sometimes easy to overlook someone sticking it to them, their list of atrocities reads like a demons resume. But the question becomes is it healthy for Dany? Then she married a slaver, she began to allow certain forms of slavery while trying to pacify both parties, she married a slaver and allowed the fighting pits open. All of it was done in the name of pacification and she had her reasons, but that's how it starts. When she took the whip to Drogon it became almost solidified for me that she was heading down a very dangerous slope. But there is a very symbolic moment when Dany loses the whip and Drogon returns to her. For me that ended Dance on a high note and gave me hope for Winds.

It may only be symbolism but you never want to become what you despise and it is often all to easy to do just that. I do admire the fact that Martin showed that anyone no matter how good can lean into those waters even with the best of intentions. But a mother needs no whip for her children and neither does justice and freedom.

[BearQueen87]

So was I, and the youngest, number 3. Lets see maybe a little drink of Wild fire, to see if I am a Dragon. Damn no Wild fire, oh wait I got Jack, close enough, I drink enough of it and I probably will think I am a dragon.

You know I am sorry I never had much chance to participate in the re read, but as MoIaF knows my schedule can be very erratic often meaning I am gone for months at a time making it hard for me to participate in anything this extensive.

But I did want to address something. Back when I was first reading Dance, I had some concerns about Dany. As some of you know when I research the books I focus heavily on inverse parallels, themes, cycles and symbolism. So as I followed Dany I became increasingly concerned for her. Old Valyria went to war with Ghis they started out as slaves, broke their chains and eventually became what they despised.

As I read I feared this may be a direction Martin takes Dany. You began to see her drift in certain directions. She began to become somewhat cruel towards her enemies. With the slavers it is sometimes easy to overlook someone sticking it to them, their list of atrocities reads like a demons resume. But the question becomes is it healthy for Dany? Then she married a slaver, she began to allow certain forms of slavery while trying to pacify both parties, she married a slaver and allowed the fighting pits open. All of it was done in the name of pacification and she had her reasons, but that's how it starts. When she took the whip to Drogon it became almost solidified for me that she was heading down a very dangerous slope. But there is a very symbolic moment when Dany loses the whip and Drogon returns to her. For me that ended Dance on a high note and gave me hope for Winds.

It may only be symbolism but you never want to become what you despise and it is often all to easy to do just that. I do admire the fact that Martin showed that anyone no matter how good can lean into those waters even with the best of intentions. But a mother needs no whip for her children and neither does justice and freedom.

Hm. I'm not sure I agree that Dany using the whip initially on Drogon was a potential sign that Dany was heading down a dark and dangerous path. Look at her and Drogon's relationship prior to him being brought to heel. She had chained his brothers and was hunting for him; she had chained her own metaphorical dragon and given way to the old Ghis ways out of "peace." She's not herself anymore and because she rejected him, he rejects her right back. Drogon has always been (and always will be---yes, Fire Eater, I see you waving your hand in protest--) Dany's dragon and is a reflection of her own state of mind. When she whips Drogon in the pit it's not a "bad" thing because 1) he is a dragon...big beasty with fire and teeth who is currently snacking... and 2) it's how she reclaims her own sense of self. She has to tame him in order to ride him in order to become The "Last Dragon" once more. Just walking up to him and asking him to politely stop eating people wasn't going to work: she had to make a choice, am I Harpy or am I Dragon. She chose the dragon.

Now, I agree with you that her losing the whip is highly significant and symbolic but not for the reasons you state. I think it speaks more to Dany's connection to Drogon--they are so strongly linked in such a unique way that she doesn't need to the tools of old Valyria--like the whip and spells and horns--to keep her dragon. One stern whipping and one eye-to-eye stare down did it. That's how connected they are; that's how much of a dragon Dany is herself.

One final note and that's the idea that a mother needs no whip for her children...ok, no maybe not a literal whip (though, find me another mother who is raising fire breathing lizards who, so far as we know, don't have a sense of self and are cognizant of their own actions...). But children do need discipline. They do need a firm hand, just not one raised in anger and violence. Dany's role as mother with Drogon, Viserion, and Rhaegal is unique and requires a different set of disciplinary principles. Maybe freedom and justice don't need a whip either but, like children, you can't just let it run amok. You do need a metaphorical whip--I believe we call them laws and regulations.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

So was I, and the youngest, number 3. Lets see maybe a little drink of Wild fire, to see if I am a Dragon. Damn no Wild fire, oh wait I got Jack, close enough, I drink enough of it and I probably will think I am a dragon.

You know I am sorry I never had much chance to participate in the re read, but as MoIaF knows my schedule can be very erratic often meaning I am gone for months at a time making it hard for me to participate in anything this extensive.

But I did want to address something. Back when I was first reading Dance, I had some concerns about Dany. As some of you know when I research the books I focus heavily on inverse parallels, themes, cycles and symbolism. So as I followed Dany I became increasingly concerned for her. Old Valyria went to war with Ghis they started out as slaves, broke their chains and eventually became what they despised.

As I read I feared this may be a direction Martin takes Dany. You began to see her drift in certain directions. She began to become somewhat cruel towards her enemies. With the slavers it is sometimes easy to overlook someone sticking it to them, their list of atrocities reads like a demons resume. But the question becomes is it healthy for Dany? Then she married a slaver, she began to allow certain forms of slavery while trying to pacify both parties, she married a slaver and allowed the fighting pits open. All of it was done in the name of pacification and she had her reasons, but that's how it starts. When she took the whip to Drogon it became almost solidified for me that she was heading down a very dangerous slope. But there is a very symbolic moment when Dany loses the whip and Drogon returns to her. For me that ended Dance on a high note and gave me hope for Winds.

It may only be symbolism but you never want to become what you despise and it is often all to easy to do just that. I do admire the fact that Martin showed that anyone no matter how good can lean into those waters even with the best of intentions. But a mother needs no whip for her children and neither does justice and freedom.

IMO Dany is simply understanding/embracing the fact that as a ruler/queen you cannot make everyone happy. Many times throughout her chapters in DwD she admits or thinks that all she is doing, is for peace. She admits several times that all of this is the price of peace. She does not want her people to die for her or because of her, she also does not want open war. In Astapor and Yunkai she gets through on being more clever than all the SB great Master morons with hardly any deaths, except Reznak (giggle).

BUt then comes the day of Daznaks pit, and Dany realizes, for the first time, that to have peace she must also; 1. Allow fighting pits, 2. be married to Hizdhar, 3. eventually kill her dragons, 4. never be in love, 5. stay in Meereen FOREVER.

Which is why, IMO, she throws her floppy ears away and goes to save her dragon instead of letting them kill it 'for peace'. I think she has realized that peace to these people = fighting pits and slavery and a dead dragon queen. So she chooses differently, she decides that this is not what she wants, none of it is, so she runs towards her dragon and chooses them over the Meereneese, which, if you ask me, was the right decision. Will more citizens of SB die because of it? Most likely, but to be fair, she did give them a chance, a very long good chance to do right, to stop slaving, to stop the fighting pits, but they fought against her until they got it back where they wanted. So they made their choices, they prefer death and enslavement, and she accepted their choice. But now they will have to pay for it. She gave them every chance to change their ways, and I know posters will say, "well how does Dany know best for people in SB, she is so arrogant to think she knows better!!!"

My answer to that is "Well it's sort of obvious that she knows better, almost any way of life is better than the way of life in SB." Dany is just the one who happens to be there and cares enough to try and change/stop the slave trade. So anyway I think you are right Ser C, she might be getting a bit darker and more fierce, not desiring peace above all anymore. But only against the masters and any army coming at her. NO way will she ever turn in to a tyrant psycho killing children and burning people for no reason. That is what so many think she is headed towards and that is what they are wrong about. Just because she is going to man up and take out some of these fucks in SB does not = her going mad and destroying the world with her dragons.