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Daenerys Stormborn - A Re-read Project Part VI: ADWD

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RE: Moses



I'd be careful to make a one to one comparison. Martin certainly takes inspiration from history, however, he does not follow it to the letter. That is not to say that Dany might not die, the is certainly a good chance of that, however, I'm sure that GRRM will do things differently whatever that may be.



RE: Dany and the whip



I think you all have a point. In many way Dany was allowing herself to be part of the slaver culture in the name of peace, I won't say she was becoming one of them because she was not. However, she participated and thus in a manner (to those observing from the outside) was endorsing part of their culture. We see that in the way she dresses (tokar) in her marriage ceremony to Hizzy, in her allowing slavery outside her walls, and of course the pit Had she continues in this vain it would have been an extremely slippery slope.



When Dany locked her dragons she was locking away the uncontrollable power that they represented, this is both true for the dragons and for herself. As her time in Meereen progressed she further continues to give away her power because she does not see herself as capable of wielding it. It's almost a crisis of confidence. The Peace that Dany was working towards was in many ways a form of barriers impose upon herself. The restrictions that came with it where these barriers she allowed to be setup that will restrict the power she knew she could wield, she was so paralyzed by the fear of the power and destruction that she way capable of that she was basically loosing herself on purpose. She stopped being Daenerys and became the Queen. In some ways it sort of remind me of when Galadriel is offered the One Ring and refuses it because she knows how having the kind of uncontrolled power can corrupt you. However, as time progresses Dany begins to see that the peace is not what she had envisioned as everything she had fought for is eroding right in front of her eyes, as she sees the slave market outside her walls on the day of her wedding, she realize that the peace had become an avenue of empowering her enemies at the cost of her people and herself.



As we arrive at Daznak's Pit Dany is at her boiling point. Then she finds herself facing Drogon, staring him right in the eye. She can either give in to the fear and be destroyed or she can choose to conquer her fear, live and regain the power she had so willingly given away. So now actually she's in the opposite situation as Galadriel because choosing not to control the power is choosing her death and the death of those she loves and wishes to protect but choosing to control the power is choosing to save them all. The whip them is a metaphor for her deciding that she will take charge, she will control the power - she uses the whip because that's how she believes she has to control that power: by force.



Her time in the Dothraki sea shows her the importance of taking that power and embracing it, not only embracing the dragon but embracing herself. She lost herself and her dragons in Meereen because she wanted to hide away from what she had seen. However, as she heads towards her Walk of Triumph she realizes that she can't deny who she is and want her dragon are no more than she can cover the sun with one hand. Accepting this and embracing it is the best way to control it. She doesn't need the whip anymore because as BearQueen87 said they are part of each other, if she can control herself, she controls him.



Sorry if that doesn't make sense, it sounded way better in my head. :dunno:

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I suppose if Martin had written LOTR, Galadriel would have taken the Ring, subjugated Rohan, the Shire, Dale, and Gondor, and waged war to the death against Sauron (which is essentially what Glen Cook does with the heroine of the Black Company series). People don't win by being humble, and renouncing power, in ASOIAF.

The problem for Dany (and anyone else) is how to be brutal enough to govern effectively, in a cruel world, when still retaining a sufficient ethical compass to avoid being a tyrant. Dany hasn't got it right, but then nor has anyone else.

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RE: Moses

I'd be careful to make a one to one comparison. Martin certainly takes inspiration from history, however, he does not follow it to the letter. That is not to say that Dany might not die, the is certainly a good chance of that, however, I'm sure that GRRM will do things differently whatever that may be.

That's a good point, GRRM doesn't have to follow the exact storyline of Moses for the parallels to work. In order to change it, Dany might come to realize that home is not necessarily a place--she doesn't need an actual building with a red door to be at home. At the end of the day, a house is just a structure, red door or not. What makes a house a home are the memories you make and the feelings you associate with that house. That's why the red door is so important: the emotions it and the memories of it elicit for Dany, namely being safe and at peace.

The Dothraki sea has no red doors (or doors for that matter) yet in GOT Dany III, we have her standing in the Sea, dirty and oiled and barefoot...and at peace. Vaes Tolloro had no red doors, yet Dany and her people began to create a life there, complete with safety and sweet tasting fruits (the peach) that Dany can savor and enjoy. They don't just rest there, they start to live. It's the city of bones, but from it comes life and renewal--and you see this with the work the khalasar puts into making the city livable again and on a more personal note, the way Dany starts to heal those around her, like tending to Jorah's wounds herself (small sob). It could have been home (eliciting safety and peace) had the outside world not infringed.

Moses never reached the Promised Land, an actual place, but Dany might realize that her own "promised land" is wherever she can be Daenerys Targaryen, woman and mother of dragons, having come to find peace within herself and the outside world.

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I suppose if Martin had written LOTR, Galadriel would have taken the Ring, subjugated Rohan, the Shire, Dale, and Gondor, and waged war to the death against Sauron (which is essentially what Glen Cook does with the heroine of the Black Company series). People don't win by being humble, and renouncing power, in ASOIAF.

I would say that's true in the real world as well. Power doesn't have to be necessarily military it can be "power of the people". However you chose to wield power, it's the only way you can change the status quo.

The problem for Dany (and anyone else) is how to be brutal enough to govern effectively, in a cruel world, when still retaining a sufficient ethical compass to avoid being a tyrant. Dany hasn't got it right, but then nor has anyone else.

True. We'll have to see how sh chooses to use what she learned in Meereen and how that will affect her goals moving forward. I personally believe that her need to take care of her people will help mitigate her more violent tendencies. Let's not forget that the tipping point in Daznak's pit was the senseless brutality she was witnessing.

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That's a good point, GRRM doesn't have to follow the exact storyline of Moses for the parallels to work. In order to change it, Dany might come to realize that home is not necessarily a place--she doesn't need an actual building with a red door to be at home. At the end of the day, a house is just a structure, red door or not. What makes a house a home are the memories you make and the feelings you associate with that house. That's why the red door is so important: the emotions it and the memories of it elicit for Dany, namely being safe and at peace.

The Dothraki sea has no red doors (or doors for that matter) yet in GOT Dany III, we have her standing in the Sea, dirty and oiled and barefoot...and at peace. Vaes Tolloro had no red doors, yet Dany and her people began to create a life there, complete with safety and sweet tasting fruits (the peach) that Dany can savor and enjoy. They don't just rest there, they start to live. It's the city of bones, but from it comes life and renewal--and you see this with the work the khalasar puts into making the city livable again and on a more personal note, the way Dany starts to heal those around her, like tending to Jorah's wounds herself (small sob). It could have been home (eliciting safety and peace) had the outside world not infringed.

Moses never reached the Promised Land, an actual place, but Dany might realize that her own "promised land" is wherever she can be Daenerys Targaryen, woman and mother of dragons, having come to find peace within herself and the outside world.

Well said.

I don't know what GRRM will eventually identify for Dany as home but whatever it is it won't be what she imagine, me thinks.

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RE: Dany and the whip

I think you all have a point. In many way Dany was allowing herself to be part of the slaver culture in the name of peace, I won't say she was becoming one of them because she was not. However, she participated and thus in a manner (to those observing from the outside) was endorsing part of their culture. We see that in the way she dresses (tokar) in her marriage ceremony to Hizzy, in her allowing slavery outside her walls, and of course the pit Had she continues in this vain it would have been an extremely slippery slope.

When Dany locked her dragons she was locking away the uncontrollable power that they represented, this is both true for the dragons and for herself. As her time in Meereen progressed she further continues to give away her power because she does not see herself as capable of wielding it. It's almost a crisis of confidence. The Peace that Dany was working towards was in many ways a form of barriers impose upon herself. The restrictions that came with it where these barriers she allowed to be setup that will restrict the power she knew she could wield, she was so paralyzed by the fear of the power and destruction that she way capable of that she was basically loosing herself on purpose. She stopped being Daenerys and became the Queen. In some ways it sort of remind me of when Galadriel is offered the One Ring and refuses it because she knows how having the kind of uncontrolled power can corrupt you. However, as time progresses Dany begins to see that the peace is not what she had envisioned as everything she had fought for is eroding right in front of her eyes, as she sees the slave market outside her walls on the day of her wedding, she realize that the peace had become an avenue of empowering her enemies at the cost of her people and herself.

As we arrive at Daznak's Pit Dany is at her boiling point. Then she finds herself facing Drogon, staring him right in the eye. She can either give in to the fear and be destroyed or she can choose to conquer her fear, live and regain the power she had so willingly given away. So now actually she's in the opposite situation as Galadriel because choosing not to control the power is choosing her death and the death of those she loves and wishes to protect but choosing to control the power is choosing to save them all. The whip them is a metaphor for her deciding that she will take charge, she will control the power - she uses the whip because that's how she believes she has to control that power: by force.

Her time in the Dothraki sea shows her the importance of taking that power and embracing it, not only embracing the dragon but embracing herself. She lost herself and her dragons in Meereen because she wanted to hide away from what she had seen. However, as she heads towards her Walk of Triumph she realizes that she can't deny who she is and want her dragon are no more than she can cover the sun with one hand. Accepting this and embracing it is the best way to control it. She doesn't need the whip anymore because as BearQueen87 said they are part of each other, if she can control herself, she controls him.

Sorry if that doesn't make sense, it sounded way better in my head. :dunno:

I agree, the whip was doesn't mean she is becoming part of the slavers culture.

Your bolded point is also a popular symbol in a lot of stories such as "Kindred", where holding a whip represents embracing power.

And nice comparison between Dany and Galadriel.

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I suppose if Martin had written LOTR, Galadriel would have taken the Ring, subjugated Rohan, the Shire, Dale, and Gondor, and waged war to the death against Sauron (which is essentially what Glen Cook does with the heroine of the Black Company series). People don't win by being humble, and renouncing power, in ASOIAF.

The problem for Dany (and anyone else) is how to be brutal enough to govern effectively, in a cruel world, when still retaining a sufficient ethical compass to avoid being a tyrant. Dany hasn't got it right, but then nor has anyone else.

ahahahhahhaa, She so would have!!!

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Well I am not talking about Dany becoming a slaver, even on a surface level, or how she is perceived, I am speaking about how Dany was seeing herself. Although some could of looked at her that way but it's not really the point.

Now of course she wanted peace and she was tired. Now Dany of course does not belong in slavers bay and she does not want to be there. But she is stuck there, the fight has gone out of her a bit, she is tired. The story starts to become where do you draw the line in order to attain peace. All these things start happening and Dany starts giving in little by little. Her floppy ears as they are well known. She looks for conciliation between the slavers and the slaves. But the slavers are not giving anything and Dany is. In that search for peace, we see Dany lock away the dragons. Now for me this is not symbolic of Dany locking away her power. It's more symbolic to me of her locking away who she is. And during that time the Dragon becomes much more dormant within Dany herself. Problems heavily begin to escalate with the salvers. Her city is surrounded, she does nothing, she tries adapting to their ways, she dresses like them, she gets married to one, she allows the fighting pits, her city becomes surrounded with slavery taking place right outside her gates. Her people get murdered and nobody is brought tot justice.

Now the story builds up to the seen in the fighting pits. Those are slavers cheering for Dany, and she is disgusted by it, the whole thing disgusts her. Now there is a very symbolic moment where Dany is like that's it, I am done with this, and she takes off her floppy ears and of course right after that Drogon shows up. And think that is what the build up is, you watch Dany sort of give into the slavers little by little through her chapters. Until that moment. That part of Dany that was missing that part that she couldn't lock up, returned.

Now some see what Dany did was getting Drogon to yield using the whip, that she dominated him. Domination and control is not a bond. Drogon did hot even feel the whip, what Dany did was not back down, which she had been doing with slavers for awhile. Of course we see Drogon yield to the whip which is a metaphor for what has been going on with Dany. but she can't really control him. He does not do what she wants, they fly off but he refuses to return to Meereen. Now you can get into the Dragon bond aspect of it, but that is not my focus.

“The dragonlords of old Valyria had controlled their mounts with binding spells and sorcerous horns. Daenerys made do with a word and a whip.”

The whip goes against everything Dany believes, and was never part of their relationship. She does not need, she just needs to be true to who she is. Which she has not been, in a sense she has been locking that part of her away.

“And no matter how far the dragon flew each day, come nightfall some instinct drew him home to Dragonstone. His home, not mine. Her home was back in Meereen, with her husband and her lover. That was where she belonged, surely.”

Of course the "surely in that statement is really important because it shows doubt.

Now of course one important aspect of her final chapter is Dany is moving again, Meereen is very stagnant and Dany herself became very stagnant there. Now of course Martin separates her from Meereen because it is important for Dany to get some perspective, which is why most of the chapter is Dany reflecting.

Another important part is Dany tries to abandon Drogon, she even says it. But it is a struggle, because she says it she is still trying to convince herself that Meereen is now her home.

“It was time, though. A girl might spend her life at play, but she was a woman grown, a queen, a wife, a mother to thousands. Her children had need of her. Drogon had bent before the whip, and so must she.”

She is trying to convince herself of something that is actually bad. You know what whips are symbolic of. Lets not forget this will not be the first whip Dany drops. It happened before in Astapor.

“As she walked, she tapped her thigh with the pitmaster’s whip. That, and the rags on her back, were all she had taken from Meereen.”

So Martin is making sure we don't forget that whip because he is setting up a choice, you know what the whip is symbolic of and you know what the Dragon is symbolic of.

Now up to this point she is still thinking about Meereen and getting back there and floppy ears and all that.

Now Dany next goes through a period of denial. Her people must be coming for her, her lover, her husband, her blood riders, and Selmy. For they must have been released by now.

“Only Daario had been given to the Yunkai’i, a hostage to ensure no harm came to the Yunkish captains. Daario and Hero, Jhogo and Groleo, and three of Hizdahr’s kin. By now, surely, all of her hostages would have been released. But …”

“He boasts of bedding me, you mean. But Daario would not have been so foolish as to make such a boast amongst her enemies. It makes no matter. By now the Yunkai’i will be marching home. That was why she had done all that she had done. For peace.”

Now of course Dany is constantly in doubt of her own statements and thoughts. There is a reason for this, Dany does not want to go back to that life. Now of course Drogon and her have a symbiotic relationship and he knows this, which is why he doesn't take her. More reflection time.

“So once again she turned her back upon the distant hill and closed her ears to the song of flight and freedom that the wind sang as it played amongst the hill’s stony ridges.”

Here she is once again closing her ears to freedom, trying to convince herself that Meereen is where she belongs.

“upon her leg with the whip, trying not to think about how far she had to go,”

Of course Martin shows the whip again, time to unclog her ears.

And almost like a thought in the back of her mind, Drogon.

“Thrice that day she caught sight of Drogon. Once he was so far off that he might have been an eagle, slipping in and out of distant clouds, but Dany knew the look of him by now, even when he was no more than a speck. The second time he passed before the sun, his black wings spread, and the world darkened. The last time he flew right above her, so close she could hear the sound of his wings. For half a heartbeat Dany thought that he was hunting her, but he flew on without taking any notice of her and vanished somewhere in the east. Just as well, she thought.”

All these questions about Meereen, about what she is doing, about what she had given into.

“Remember who you are, Daenerys,” the stars whispered in a woman’s voice. “The dragons know. Do you?”

Of course this leads Dany to reflect on the wall of Westeros. Gosh I wonder why. Nope no question mark after why, don't need an answer.

“The sun was only just coming up. A few bright stars lingered in the cobalt sky. Perhaps one of them is Khal Drogo, sitting on his fiery stallion in the night lands and smiling down on me. Dragonstone was still visible above the grasslands. It looks so close.”

We already know what fiery stallion is watching her and shares the name Drogo.

But again she turns away from Dragonstone.

“Her whip slapped softly against her thigh, wap wap wap.”

She has a very interesting Dream of Viserys who is in denial even in her dream. Which is something Dany has to deal with right now.

“I am the blood of the dragon,” she told the grass, aloud.

Once, the grass whispered back, until you chained your dragons in the dark.”

There is that denial, you see saying your something and being that are two different things, and Dany locked that part of her up. Well most of it, part of it refuses to be locked up.

“I will never have a little girl. I was the Mother of Dragons.”

Aye, the grass said, but you turned against your children.”

And reality sets in, the Dragons are not her only children. Of course she had her reasons for trying what she was trying but it was not helping either of them. The slavers on the other hand were starting to get what they wanted.

“In the stream or out of it, I must keep walking. Water flows downhill. The stream will take me to the river, and the river will take me home.”

This is what she has been calling Meereen. This was a big concern of mine a long time ago, must of what you see her reflecting on in 71 was a concern for me when I read her chapters. And there is a reason, that is what the author wants. He is showing you a different Dany, and a slope she could slide down. Not to say she did but he placed it there.

“Except it wouldn’t, not truly.

Meereen was not her home, and never would be. It was a city of strange men with strange gods and stranger hair, of slavers wrapped in fringed tokars, where grace was earned through whoring, butchery was art, and dog was a delicacy. Meereen would always be the Harpy’s city, and Daenerys could not be a harpy.”

And there is Dany.

“I am dreaming,” she said. “A waking dream, a walking dream. I am alone and lost.”

Lost, because you lingered, in a place that you were never meant to be, murmured Ser Jorah, as softly as the wind. Alone, because you sent me from your side.”

Well Jorah does have to show up and lecture at some point. And he is not wrong.

“You took Meereen, he told her, yet still you lingered.

“To be a queen.”

You are a queen, her bear said. In Westeros.”

Taking Meereen, freeing slaves, getting food for free slaves, kicking slaver ass all good. Fuck level the place if you want. Just don't take up with them.

“It is such a long way,” she complained. “I was tired, Jorah. I was weary of war. I wanted to rest, to laugh, to plant trees and see them grow. I am only a young girl.”

No. You are the blood of the dragon. The whispering was growing fainter, as if Ser Jorah were falling farther behind. Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words.”

Now it may seen almost cruel to say Dany is born for war. But she is, it may not be fair but that's life. There is a war she was born for, there is a bigger picture to this.

Funny thing happens in the stream, she trips on a stone.

“She fumbled in the water, found a stone the size of her fist, pulled it from the mud. It was a poor weapon but better than an empty hand. From the corner of her eye Dany saw the grass move again, off to her right. The grass swayed and bowed low, as if before a king, but no king appeared to her.”

Dany the dragon holding a stone and references to a king. Oh and in water no less.

Of course then come the bells and she reflects on what Mirri said to her.

“She called until her voice was hoarse … and Drogon came, snorting plumes of smoke. The grass bowed down before him. Dany leapt onto his back. She stank of blood and sweat and fear, but none of that mattered. “To go forward I must go back,” she said. Her bare legs tightened around the dragon’s neck. She kicked him, and Drogon threw himself into the sky. Her whip was gone, so she used her hands and feet and turned him north by east, the way the scout had gone. Drogon went willingly enough;”

The Whip is gone and Drogon returns, of course there is a lot of other symbolism with the grass bowing down to him.

You know it's funny thing, but

Sun + Moon = Dragons

R+L=J

It's sort of interesting how Jon sits in the same position as Drogon. Now you can look at the king allusions or you can look at the mount metaphors, dragon symbolism. The use of water. There is a lot there between those two. Oh and she even thought about the wall in this chapter and things coming over it to attack her.

Either way the whip is gone and she does not need it and never did. She just thought she did.

“In Meereen I was a queen”

"Was" Cause the past is in the past, just like the whip. Now granted she will have to face her past again just like with the Dothraki, but who returns Meereen is not who left, and that was my point. It was the floppy eared queen who left Meereen, it is the Mother of Draogns who will return.

You have seen this before, in fact it is happening right now. Full circle. The inverse of the slavers of Meereen, now that Drogon has eaten Dessert is serving itself. Well the Dothraki, the mobile slavers who live in no cities. She was a queen among them as well. Though she was happy there to an extant and she did try to implement change. And now those that left her for dead come to her and the dragons are no longer eggs.

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@Ser Creighton

Your post is rather long so I'm only going to touch on a few things and I know you just left for the holidays, so maybe you'll see it when you get back.

The whip goes against everything Dany believes, and was never part of their relationship. She does not need, she just needs to be true to who she is. Which she has not been, in a sense she has been locking that part of her away

I disagree because Dany reclaimed the symbology of the whip in ASOS when she used it against the Masters of Astapor. She took their weapon of pain and torture and slavery and used it to free the slaves, who now consider her their Mhysa. The whip is not just a negative symbol--no symbol is only strictly one thing. It's a symbol of dominance for the slavers, but for Dany's it's when she took control of the situation and became the mother of the slaves. Here, in the pit, the whip once more becomes her righting a wrong. She chooses to be the Dragon once more, and uses the whip to free another of her children--her real child, Drogon. The whip is part of her reclaiming her power and her identity. Its not simply a tool of the oppressors.

You know it's funny thing, but

Sun + Moon = Dragons

R+L=J

Ok here is my problem with this. First, you know how much time I spend in RLJ. I spend most of my time on this forum fighting for RLJ and even more for RL = Legit J. But not every little sentence in ASOIAF has to do with Jon or RLJ. Dany is a character in her own right and taking her Walk of Triumph (as we will forever call it now, thanks Kyoshi) and give parts of it to Jon feel like a disservice to Dany herself. Dany has her own sun and moon journey that doesn't need to be relegated back to Jon and his parentage. This is an incredible chapter and we need not tie Jon into it to make it special. Do I think your RLJ conclusion is wrong? No certainly not. But these three visions and what is going on are important to Dany her very self, solely independent of Jon. And I will forever disagree about Drogon being Jon's mount if you made that suggestion (seriously, you wrote a lot...)

I think the Quaithe, Viserys, and Jorah visions and really that entire chapter, perhaps apart from the stone under Dany's foot, belong exclusively to Dany. Now there are other ways of looking at it, leaving Jon back on the Wall. I for one gave my own spin, and maybe it's utter hogwash and we all know I have a bias (though I did try to leave it behind and present a textual analysis) but at least it gives Dany ownership of her own chapter.

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Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays, all my Dany Re-Read compatriots! Can't wait to start our second round of Dany talk in January!


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Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays, all my Dany Re-Read compatriots! Can't wait to start our second round of Dany talk in January!

Thank you so much. And Merry Christmas / Happy Holidays to you and every else as well. A ditto too for or next re-read project.

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@Ser Creighton

Your post is rather long so I'm only going to touch on a few things and I know you just left for the holidays, so maybe you'll see it when you get back.

I disagree because Dany reclaimed the symbology of the whip in ASOS when she used it against the Masters of Astapor. She took their weapon of pain and torture and slavery and used it to free the slaves, who now consider her their Mhysa. The whip is not just a negative symbol--no symbol is only strictly one thing. It's a symbol of dominance for the slavers, but for Dany's it's when she took control of the situation and became the mother of the slaves. Here, in the pit, the whip once more becomes her righting a wrong. She chooses to be the Dragon once more, and uses the whip to free another of her children--her real child, Drogon. The whip is part of her reclaiming her power and her identity. Its not simply a tool of the oppressors.

Ok here is my problem with this. First, you know how much time I spend in RLJ. I spend most of my time on this forum fighting for RLJ and even more for RL = Legit J. But not every little sentence in ASOIAF has to do with Jon or RLJ. Dany is a character in her own right and taking her Walk of Triumph (as we will forever call it now, thanks Kyoshi) and give parts of it to Jon feel like a disservice to Dany herself. Dany has her own sun and moon journey that doesn't need to be relegated back to Jon and his parentage. This is an incredible chapter and we need not tie Jon into it to make it special. Do I think your RLJ conclusion is wrong? No certainly not. But these three visions and what is going on are important to Dany her very self, solely independent of Jon. And I will forever disagree about Drogon being Jon's mount if you made that suggestion (seriously, you wrote a lot...)

I think the Quaithe, Viserys, and Jorah visions and really that entire chapter, perhaps apart from the stone under Dany's foot, belong exclusively to Dany. Now there are other ways of looking at it, leaving Jon back on the Wall. I for one gave my own spin, and maybe it's utter hogwash and we all know I have a bias (though I did try to leave it behind and present a textual analysis) but at least it gives Dany ownership of her own chapter.

Oh BQ, I am not giving anything to Jon or taking anything from Dany. Never would. But I will explain it later, I am referring to a shared parallel there and symbolism. It has nothing to do with Dany and what she has done in her life or what she has overcome, everyone knows how many props I give Dany and how much I respect her character and what she has done. And don't worry it will be much shorter, I do go on in my posts some time, but that is only because of my respect for her chapters and how much I enjoy talking about her.

I also need to address that whip issue, which will be very short. Well short for me, but I will not lie I think some have the wrong idea about that. But I don't have the time just now, but promise later today.

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Hey Creighton!

I thought I'd add my two cents before you post your reply. Although I agree with much of what you wrote there are two points in which I'm in disagreement.

First:

But the slavers are not giving anything and Dany is. In that search for peace, we see Dany lock away the dragons. Now for me this is not symbolic of Dany locking away her power. It's more symbolic to me of her locking away who she is. And during that time the Dragon becomes much more dormant within Dany herself.

I don't believe these two things Dany loosing herself and locking aaa her power are mutually exclusive. they actually go hand in hand. The dragon are not only representative of herself they are a physical representation of the power she can wield if she so choses to. She basically puts away her greatest weapon in fear that she cannot control it.

From the text:

"In some of those pyramids, the Sons of the Harpy are plotting new murders even now, and I am powerless to stop them."

~~*~~
“They are mocking me to my face, making a show of how powerless I am to stop them.”
Is she truly powerless to stop them or is she allowing herself to be powerless because she refuses to let loose the dragons. She can stop them if she releases her dragons and asserts her authority once again but she is choosing not to in fear. Nw, the dragons are a representation of herself, she has locked herself away, she's forgotten who she is and her purpose.
Not only are the dragons are great weapon but they are also a symbol. Her people continued to follow her even though she had locked away her dragons but her enemies stopped fearing her. That's a problem, you do need a carrot when ruling but you also need a stick.
Second point:

Funny thing happens in the stream, she trips on a stone.

“She fumbled in the water, found a stone the size of her fist, pulled it from the mud. It was a poor weapon but better than an empty hand. From the corner of her eye Dany saw the grass move again, off to her right. The grass swayed and bowed low, as if before a king, but no king appeared to her.”

Dany the dragon holding a stone and references to a king. Oh and in water no less.

Of course then come the bells and she reflects on what Mirri said to her.

“She called until her voice was hoarse … and Drogon came, snorting plumes of smoke. The grass bowed down before him. Dany leapt onto his back. She stank of blood and sweat and fear, but none of that mattered. “To go forward I must go back,” she said. Her bare legs tightened around the dragon’s neck. She kicked him, and Drogon threw himself into the sky. Her whip was gone, so she used her hands and feet and turned him north by east, the way the scout had gone. Drogon went willingly enough;”

The Whip is gone and Drogon returns, of course there is a lot of other symbolism with the grass bowing down to him.

You know it's funny thing, but

Sun + Moon = Dragons

R+L=J

It's sort of interesting how Jon sits in the same position as Drogon. Now you can look at the king allusions or you can look at the mount metaphors, dragon symbolism. The use of water. There is a lot there between those two. Oh and she even thought about the wall in this chapter and things coming over it to attack her.

So, I actually have a different interpretation of this as well. It's interesting that we all read this and see different things in it. I'm not sure if we are all right or all wrong but the text is open to interpretation. During the re-read when this chapter was review I put forward my interpretaiton:

Tyrion ADWD:

"The next evening they came upon a huge Valyrian sphinx crouched beside the road. It had a dragons body and a womans face. A dragon queen, said Tyrion. A pleasant omen. Her king is missing. Illyrio pointed out the smooth stone plinth on which the second sphinx once stood, now grown over with moss and flowering vines. The horselords built wooden wheels beneath him and dragged him back to Vaes Dothrak.

Dany X ADWD

"The grass swayed and bowed low, as if before a king, but no king appeared to her."


~~~*~~~

"When the sound of his hooves had faded away to silence, she began to shout. She called until her voice was hoarse and Drogon came, snorting plumes of smoke. The grass bowed down before him."

The grass bowing to Dany's right where a king would stand and then bowing down to Drogon (a king amongst dragons?) shows us what Dany has been missing. During Tyrion's travels he saw one half of a couple of Valyrian sphinxes, the king missing taken to Vaes Dothrak. Dany's true king has been missing, he has fled tot he Dothraki sea.


After the events in Daznea's Pit and the flight the matching pair of Valyrian sphinxes king and queen are reunited in the Dothraki sea. This also might correspond to the matching pair of rider and dragon or as represented by the Valyrian sphinx half person and half dragon. As Dany thought during her flight, on dragon's back she felt whole. Like the Valyrian sphinx Tyrion saw half woman and half dragon.

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I hope you will excuse this quick rant while I sit in hiding at an old friends house. But Christmas at home with my family could easily be renamed A Christmas with the Lannisters. Walking into my mothers house for me is like Ned Stark skipping into Kings Landing. It's a trap. Apparently the theme this year is to marry me off, again. Ok that's enough.

So really quickly.

The whip, I do not believe in the inversion the symbolic nature of the whip, just like I don't believe in any good form of slavery. The whip is one of the most oppressive symbols in the history of man, there is no getting around it for me, and I don't think Martin ever intended for it to represent anything good, he is pretty cut and dry with slavery. That is my opinion of that.

“Make way!” Jhogo shouted as he rode before her litter. “Make way for the Mother of Dragons!” But when he uncoiled the great silver-handled whip that Dany had given him, and made to crack it in the air, she leaned out and told him nay. “Not in this place, blood of my blood,” she said, in his own tongue. “These bricks have heard too much of the sound of whips.”

This a very important quote for me, because it's this quote that tells you Dany was never planning on a slave army. Even though she was full into the ruse at this point. And I completely agree with her here. There is a lot in that chapter, and if you note her Dragons to try and come to her when she becomes stressed and when the slavers come to see them Drogon tries to escape.

After she strikes her deal for drogon, her temperament changes, she becomes rather determined.

“I know what Aegon proved. I mean to prove a few things of my own”

“Your name is Oh?”

“No. Your Grace, forgive this one her outburst. Your slave’s name is Missandei, but …”

“Missandei is no longer a slave. I free you, from this instant.”

She frees her just as freed the slaves that had stayed with her after Drogo died.

“Dany handed the slaver the end of Drogon’s chain. In return he presented her with the whip.”

“Dany turned the whip in her hand. Such a light thing, to bear such weight. “Is it done, then? Do they belong to me?”

“It is done,” he agreed, giving the chain a sharp pull to bring Drogon down from the litter.”

A dragon in chains and a whip. Things come full circle on the slavers here. The whip has not and will never be something that is symbolic of Dany or the dragons, and know this for certain, because a dragon is not a slave.

“He will not come,” Kraznys said.

“There is a reason. A dragon is no slave.” And Dany swept the lash down as hard as she could across the slaver’s face.”

Dany kept her word and excepted the deal, but she never intended for the Unsullied to be slaves to her or anyone else ever again. It's not the inversion of power, the Masters created the unsullied, their crimes and evil comes back and hits them right in the face. It is not the taking of the whip or the unsullied that is important here. The whip did not give them freedom, it did not become a power for Dany, it became a power she destroyed.

“She raised the harpy’s fingers in the air … and then she flung the scourge aside. “Freedom!” she sang out.”

Freedom. That is the source of Dany's power.

As for Dance 71, I feel very much the same way, I feel in Dance we see Dany attempting compromise with the slavers. But at some point I feel she began to give to much to compromise to much. At what point do her ideals, her beliefs, her truths become compromised. Now she was not trying to go out and compromise any of that, but sometimes it happens and that is the danger of compromise, in some cases there are just some things you do not compromise.

“Drogon had bent before the whip, and so must she.”

This is that kind of reflection on that compromise. I do not feel Dragon came to her because of the Danger. I think Drogon set out that day for Meereen because Dany' frustration was building regarding the Blood pits. By the time he arrives Dany is fed up and taking off her floppy ears.

The whip itself is a point of conflict that carries over into the next chapter. But Drogon did not really bend to the whip, it couldn't even hurt him. He did not let Dany ride him because of the whip he did it in spite of the whip. Dany stood up to him and did not back down. Martin makes a point of that whip over and over in 71 but when it was gone?

“Her whip was gone, so she used her hands and feet and turned him north by east, the way the scout had gone. Drogon went willingly enough;”

Whips are bad things unless it is mutual among consenting adults and they happen to be into that sort of thing. But in this book, they are bad and very symbolic of the slavers as it is true history.

As for R+L=J and the Sun and Moon quote I am not sure where you are getting I am giving Jon anything from Dany? I do parallels between Jon and Dany I do not give credit for the others actions at any point. So I am not sure what to say about that. You read Sun and Moon I have not said anything like that, so I am guessing a misinterpretation of what I am saying because I have very clear stance on those 2 and always have, and stealing credit or things from either of them is not part of it.

R+L=J

Sun + Moon=Dragons

Azor Ahai = Nissa Nissa = Lightbringer

The Lione of Night and the Maiden made of light = Emperor

Those are just shared parallels I look at between the two and where either of them sits in terms of symbolism in each case. And how all of them relate to each other.

Ok so not short but much shorter than before. So now I am off because I guess it's my turn to bend to the whip that is my family.

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@SC



Bullet point style response given that I too am in hiding from family.





As for R+L=J and the Sun and Moon quote I am not sure where you are getting I am giving Jon anything from Dany? I do parallels between Jon and Dany I do not give credit for the others actions at any point. So I am not sure what to say about that. You read Sun and Moon I have not said anything like that, so I am guessing a misinterpretation of what I am saying because I have very clear stance on those 2 and always have, and stealing credit or things from either of them is not part of it.




First, an apology because I read back my response and realized I was rather snippy in my response above. Blame holidays, working retail, and probably more than those other factors, a trend I see in the forums at large: Dany, and everything she wants or has, is only for Jon. Dany's claim is really Jon's (not something I wholly disagree with as you know), Dany's dragons are really just being held for Jon (especially Drogon), Dany will simply die or sit on her ass while Saint Jon Snow, the most special snowflake on Planetos, goes off to save the world all by himself. It...irks me to a great extent both as a Dany fan and as a Jon fan that Dany's importance to ASOIAF gets relegated to "just for Jon." So it's very possible that I misread your long post up thread as "this chapter is important cause RLJ" and took what you said the wrong way and it triggered an irritation that has been brewing for awhile now (though, of course not at you specifically. Story time with Ser Creighton is still my favorite!)



Ok, now that that was out of the way, on to something else





The whip, I do not believe in the inversion the symbolic nature of the whip, just like I don't believe in any good form of slavery. The whip is one of the most oppressive symbols in the history of man, there is no getting around it for me, and I don't think Martin ever intended for it to represent anything good, he is pretty cut and dry with slavery. That is my opinion of that.




I get your opinion, and I'll briefly give mine. I think a whip (which already has a negative connotation imbued because of our cultural understanding of what it has meant for our own history) is simply a tool. It in and of itself is neither good nor evil. It's a tool and it's "goodness" or "evil" is based on the person wielding it. When the Masters use it, it's a tool of oppression and hatred and vile slavery. But when Dany uses it in the same manner (striking another person) it turns into a symbol of her freeing the slaves and defending them against what the whip was previously used for. A whip (and any weapon) is like a dragon, neither good nor evil until it has a rider or someone controlling it and then we see what it and the person are.



I don't think there is any good form of slavery and I certainly don't think Martin is trying to make a case otherwise..in fact, at the risk of trying to get you to read my stuff, I did Tyrion XI for the re-read where I discussed a lot of Martin's own views on slavery by the way he set up slave to slave relation. But when Dany uses the whip both in Astapor and the pit she isn't using it to oppress anyone...she's using it to first save the slaves and second save the people of Meereen from being dragon food. (She's also mastering Drogon which is also mastering herself, making the decision to be the dragon, not some Harpy-As-Dragon or whatnot--I think it's a totally empowering moment and her loss of the whip isn't about the rejection of the slaver's morality or deciding not to be like them it's about her and Drogon's relationship)


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I get your opinion, and I'll briefly give mine. I think a whip (which already has a negative connotation imbued because of our cultural understanding of what it has meant for our own history) is simply a tool. It in and of itself is neither good nor evil. It's a tool and it's "goodness" or "evil" is based on the person wielding it. When the Masters use it, it's a tool of oppression and hatred and vile slavery. But when Dany uses it in the same manner (striking another person) it turns into a symbol of her freeing the slaves and defending them against what the whip was previously used for. A whip (and any weapon) is like a dragon, neither good nor evil until it has a rider or someone controlling it and then we see what it and the person are.

Agreed :agree:

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Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays, all my Dany Re-Read compatriots! Can't wait to start our second round of Dany talk in January!

Thank you so much. And Merry Christmas / Happy Holidays to you and every else as well. A ditto too for or next re-read project.

Merry christmas to you guys and everyoneelse in the Re-read :D

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This is telling. She's BETTER than the Dragonlords of old Valyria. Her bond with Drogon is STRONGER than any other dragon/dragonrider in history. Amidst chaos and fear and blood and screaming, she tamed a dragon with a word and whip!!!!!

*fist pump for our Silver Queen*

Apologies for bringing up old posts. I have been doing a lot of catching up on this re-read over Christmas.

It is curious that you stated this. We now know that Daenerys has got 50% Blackwood DNA in her veins - she is a great deal of first men blood in her.

Is the combination of her Valyrian (connection to dragons and blood magic) and First Men (connection to warging and greenseeing) blood making her the ultimate dragonrider to surpass even Aegon?

Edit: I am GoldenFleece2 by the way, I analysed two of the chapters :-) .

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Apologies for bringing up old posts. I have been doing a lot of catching up on this re-read over Christmas.

It is curious that you stated this. We now know that Daenerys has got 50% Blackwood DNA in her veins - she is a great deal of first men blood in her.

Is the combination of her Valyrian (connection to dragons and blood magic) and First Men (connection to warging and greenseeing) blood making her the ultimate dragonrider to surpass even Aegon?

Edit: I am GoldenFleece2 by the way, I analysed two of the chapters :-) .

In a word, yes, I think so. Is it 50%? I know that it wouldn't have diluted as much because all her ancestors (J2 and Aerys) were marrying their won siblings...so yeah I guess it would stay around 50%

Her First Men blood is VERY interesting. I think it helps explain her connection to animals like her silver mare as well as her dragon conenction--like why she can ride Drogon without the whip, the horn, spells..and why they have a bond unlike any other Targ/dragon

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In a word, yes, I think so. Is it 50%? I know that it wouldn't have diluted as much because all her ancestors (J2 and Aerys) were marrying their won siblings...so yeah I guess it would stay around 50%

Her First Men blood is VERY interesting. I think it helps explain her connection to animals like her silver mare as well as her dragon conenction--like why she can ride Drogon without the whip, the horn, spells..and why they have a bond unlike any other Targ/dragon

We do not have a Blackwood family tree, so we cannot say 50% First Men Blood for all certainty - Blackwoods I assume would marry a few Andals down the way, but considering that Aegon V married Bertha Blackwood who was born 201AC and Bryden Rivers (who is a greenseer and a warg) was born to Melissa Blackwood in 175AC just a generation before Bertha, it is clear the First Blood warging magic was still strong in the family at the time. Daenerys is 50% Aegon V DNA and 50% Bertha Blackwood DNA.

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