Daenerys Stormborn - A Re-read Project Part VI: ADWD

[MoIaF]

Daenerys X: Mother of Dragons

I will never have a little girl. I was the Mother of Dragons. Aye, the grass said, but you turned against your children.

Excellent analysis, Queen Alysanne! :bowdown:

Death and Rebirth: Daenerys as a Phoenix

snip

This is a theme we have discussed throughout the re-read but especially ADWD where Dany only saw her dragons as a form of destruction not realizing that in many ways she had created a new life (of freedom) for thousands of people.

We had discussed earlier in the re-read that Dany's views of black and white could sometimes hinder her because life can be gray at times. It's understanding the dualistic need for both elements that will help her on her path.

In turn her death and rebirth through fire is a perfect example ( I love the Phoenix example!) of using this one element to achieve what would seem like to vastly different things (death and life), but in the end they are both connected.

Nature of the Dragon bond: Flight of a rider and his or her dragon

Snip

I love this description of the dragon/rider bond. it's almost like a drug to them, a vital high.

​I think when considering the bond we can look at both there process, flying and feeling the high of flying (pun totally intended). We can also look at the connection, the wholeness one rider feels when a top their dragon.

Behavioural analysis on Dragons

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Thrice that day she caught sight of Drogon. Once he was so far off that he might have been an eagle, slipping in and out of distant clouds, but Dany knew the look of him by now, even when he was no more than a speck. The second time he passed before the sun, his black wings spread, and the world darkened. The last time he flew right above her, so close she could hear the sound of his wings. For half a heartbeat Dany thought that he was hunting her, but he flew on without taking any notice of her and vanished somewhere in the east. Just as well, she thought.

While reading the quote about Drogon flying a top Dany and Dany thinking he didn't even notice her, I though to myself, no, he very much notices you and is probably checking up on you. I think he's very much aware of her.

Also, I think GRRM winked at us as Drogon when he disappeared from Meereen vanished to the East.

Remember who you are..a dragon: A look into dragons, blood and fire.

Snip

You and I have had long conversation on this part of the chapter. Like you, I recognize that the Jorah she encounters is part of her subconscious, however, I always saw it as a WWJD (what would Jorah do) moment. She's channeling her friend and long time companion and trying to figure out what he would tell her to do, and I think we can all be in agreement that had the real Jorah been there he would have told her something quite similar to what she conjured up.

Going back to Dnay's struggle with her identity. This Vision Quest is a reflection an inner conflict which Dany has been struggling with throughout ADWD., which is the conflict between her role as a mother which is to create and give life and that of a dragon which is to destroy and bring death. It's her trying to reconcile these two. As mentioned above being a dragon (the embodiment of fire) is dualistic in nature, destruction creates, creation destroys.

Becoming the Mother of Dragons. again

Though Dany doesnt announce in the chapter that she is embracing Fire and Blood, based on the themes of getting closer to Drogon, and saying her House words most readers will agree that she is heading there. Another sign to this is the parallel between this chapter and Danys final AGOT chapter, which is also about embracing the dragon/fire and blood.

Dany's last chapter of ADWD is very similar to Daenerys IX in AGOT.

First AGOT:

Flying, she thought. I had wings, I was flying. But it was only a dream. Help me, she whispered, struggling to rise. Bring me Her voice was raw as a wound, and she could not think what she wanted. Why did she hurt so much? It was as if her body had been torn to pieces and remade from the scraps. I want

needed something someone what? It was important, she knew. It was the only thing in the world that mattered.

They found her on the carpet, crawling toward her dragon eggs.

Jhiqui would have run as well, but Dany caught her by the wrist and held her captive. What is it? I must know. Drogoand my child.. Why had she not remembered the child until now? My sonRhaegowhere is he? I want him.

She should weep, she knew, yet her eyes were dry as ash. She had wept in her dream, and the tears had turned to steam on her cheeks. All the grief has been burned out of me, she told herself.

ADWD:

Drogon killed a little girl. Her name was her name Dany could not recall the childs name.

That made her so sad that she would have cried if all her tears had not been burned away. I will never

have a little girl. I was the Mother of Dragons.

In both cases she wakes from a fevered dream, can't remember a child but remembers her dragon/dragons and doesn't cry after both events. She also wakes to a miscarriage in both events.

I also jotted down these two quotes because I think they are quite important. I addd the first part of the quote after Dany woke up and knew she wanted/needed something but couldn't remember, of course she ends up reaching out to her dragon eggs.

​I think there are a few elements to consider here about these to consider here about these two scenes. First she forgets a child who is very important to her, next she looses a child, a real one, finally she chooses her dragons over these children (inadvertently for the most part).

Twice she has chosen to be the Mother of Dragons over being a mother. Now, this might be a bit far etched but as Dany story goes in threes I believe that the next time Dany will chose an actual child (or her people/children) over her dragons.

Dragons Plant No Trees

snip

Very interesting take on this, very apt. It's not the dragons way to in effect give everything you worked for away in order to "achieve" peace because in the end your just delaying what would sorely be the return to slavery in Slavery's Bay.

Staying in Meereen and planting trees was not the right course of action for what she was looking to achieve.

A missing King?

Through out ADWD we have had teases that Dany has a missing King, one from Tyrion where he sees the Valyrian Sphinx and one from Irri where she says a Khaleesi must have a Khal. However her missing king is actually her dragon, Drogon. Before Drogon comes the grass is described as having no king.

The grass swayed and bowed low, as if before a king, but no king appeared to her.

But when he arrives it is shown that he is the King,

When the sound of his hooves had faded away to silence, she began to shout. She called until her voice was hoarse and Drogon came, snorting plumes of smoke. The grass bowed down before him.

So, the other day on another thread we were discussing the bowing grass and I also connected it to Drogon...and the Valryan sphinx.

Hear me out:

"The next evening they came upon a huge Valyrian sphinx crouched beside the road. It had a dragons body and a womans face. A dragon queen, said Tyrion. A pleasant omen. Her king is missing. Illyrio pointed out the smooth stone plinth on which the second sphinx once stood, now grown over with moss and flowering vines. The horselords built wooden wheels beneath him and dragged him back to Vaes Dothrak.

The grass bowing to Dany's right where a king would stand and the bowing down to Drogon (a king amongst dragons) shows us what Dany has been missing. During Tyrion's travels he saw one half of a couple of Valyrian sphinxes, the king missing taken to Vaes Dothrak. Dany's true king has been missing, he has fled tot he Dothraki sea.

After the events in Daznea's Pit and the flight the matching pair of Valyrian sphinxes king and queen are reunited in the Dothraki sea. This also might correspond to the matching pair of rider and dragon or as represented by the Valyrian sphinx half person and half dragon. As Dany thought during her flight, on dragon's back she felt whole. A Valyrian sphinx half woman and half dragon.

Dany's king, her black dragon. Love it!

Other Thoughts

"She had no memories of that Dragonstone, but she would not soon forget this one."

Knowing what we do from the end of the chapter we know that this will be the point where Dany will start again, where she decides that "to go forward, I must go back". Much like the original Dragonstone its the beginning of a Targaryen conquest.

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"Dany knew the lure of home."

The two main themes in Danys arc are home and identity. We see her struggle with both throughout her arc in ADWD. In her first chapter in AGOT we see her reminiscing about a home she never knew or remembered. Here we see how important the idea of home truly is to Dany. It's almost an unobtainable for her, a lure.

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Her home was back in Meereen, with her husband and her lover. That was where she belonged, surely. Keep walking. If I look back I am lost ."

No, Dany told herself. If I look back I am lost. She might live for years amongst the sunbaked rocks of Dragonstone, riding Drogon by day and gnawing at his leavings every evenfall as the great grass sea turned from gold to orange, but that was not the life she had been born to. So once again she turned her back upon the distant hill and closed her ears to the song of flight and freedom that the wind sang as it played amongst the hills stony ridges.

Twice in the chapter Dany tells herself what has been her motto for the last four books. She began telling herself this motto after her fevered dream, where she saw herself running in order to get away from the cold (death). It also probably relates to the events leading up to that point, the fall of her husband and the death of her child. She used that motto to propel herself forward, its kind of a description of forward momentum.

She couldnt sit down an consider everything that happened, there was no time to stop, she needed to hatch her dragons to protect herself and her people, she needed to get out of the Dothraki sea and lead her people through the Red Waste, she needed to free the slaves, she needed to continue forward releasing the other slaves, she needed to go forward and find supplies for her people. And once in Meereen the events there just lead her forward, she was just going. And all the going just lead to her failings in Meereen.

Finally towards the end of the chapter Dany says to herself:

Drogon came, snorting plumes of smoke. The grass bowed down before him. Dany leapt onto his back. She stank of blood and sweat and fear , but none of that mattered. To go forward I must go back, she said. Her bare legs tightened around the dragons neck. She kicked him, and Drogon threw himself into the sky.

After all that forward momentum, after just going and going, she realizes that she has to go back to where she started. She got lost somewhere along the way and now she must correct her path. Perhaps fix what went wrong and perhaps correct her mistakes (missteps).

I also consider what the Dothraki are in the food chain of slaver, they are at the very top (bottom?) they are the ones who enslaves and then sell the people to the slavers. If she wants to truly abolish slavery in Essos she needs to start with them. Not saying this will be easy or simple or that even most Dothraki would be on board with it but it can be a start.

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Dany IX AGOT

The last dragon, Ser Jorahs voice whispered faintly. The last, the last. Dany lifted his polished black visor. The face within was her own. After that, for a long time, there was only the pain, the fire within her , and the whisperings of stars. She woke to the taste of ashes.

Dany X ADWD

"She dreamed. All her cares fell away from her, and all her pains as well, and she seemed to float upward into the sky. She was flying once again, spinning, laughing, dancing, as the stars wheeled around her and whispered secrets in her ear. To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward, you must go back. To touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow."

Remember who you are, Daenerys, the stars whispered in a womans voice. The dragons know. Do you?

Quaithe has been following Dany for a long time. I wonder how much of her dragon dreams she has influenced (if any).

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From the beginning of the chapter:

It was time, though. A girl might spend her life at play, but she was a woman grown, a queen, a wife, a mother to thousands.

From the end of the chapter:

"It is such a long way, she complained. I was tired, Jorah. I was weary of war. I wanted to rest, to laugh, to plant trees and see them grow. I am only a young girl."

Which is it? Are you a woman grown or a young girl or both.

Random Notes:

"From below a spear came flying, followed by a flight of crossbow bolts. One passed so close that Dany felt it brush her cheek."

They were shooting a Drogon while Dany was riding him, couldn't they have killed her?

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It was quiet on her sea. When the wind blew the grass would sigh as the stalks brushed against each other, whispering in a tongue that only gods could understand.

Interesting, she calls it her sea.

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Once I dreamed of flying , she thought, and now Ive flown, and dream of stealing eggs . That made her laugh. Men are mad and gods are madder, she told the grass, and the grass murmured its agreement.

Her agnostic leaning are showing.

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Dany IX AGOT

"Mirri Maz Duur was there, the maegi, tipping a cup against her lips. She tasted sour milk, and something else, something thick and bitter."

Dany X ADWD

"Its flesh was tart and chewy, with a bitter aftertaste that seemed familiar to her."

Could it be that MMD fed Dany an abortifacient.

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When Dany is coming down from Dragonstone 2.0 she observes that her hands are healing although there are blistery and pussy. Now, I'd like to discuss the fact that her hands only blistered (and are now healing) after removing a molting metal rod from Drogon's back. I'm not really an expert on these things but it seems to me that touching the rod should have melted her skin right off or at least tore her epidermis. I don't want to turn this into yet another Targaryen's aren't fire proof discussion (they arent). I just want to acknowledge that either Dany has an unusually high heat resistant or GRRM didn't really consider the science of the scene.

ETA: To add one more randomr though. :D

[BearQueen87]

Daenerys X: Mother of Dragons

“I will never have a little girl. I was the Mother of Dragons.” Aye, the grass said, but you turned against your children.

1) This was an excellent analysis, Queen Alysanne. Really, well done!

2) :bawl: I don't want this to be over!! We're totally doing it again when Winds comes out

3) Like a lot of you, I'm sure, I have a lot to say about this chapter but instead of making my post ridiculously long, I'm going to break it up into two. First is a response to QA, then my own interpretation of the visions on the Sea and my big conclusion to "what is going on with Daenerys Targaryen and Jorah Mormont"

Death and Rebirth: Daenerys as a Phoenix

Death, rebirth, renewal and the themes of the Phoenix are very prominent in Dany’s arc, both in her personal development and in what she is trying to achieve in Slaver’s Bay. The most popular example of this is when she entered the funeral pyre and came out unburnt and was reborn as a new person, there are also other instances such as her being reborn after Drogon appeared in her dream and also being reborn after her dream that occurred during the death of her son. What is important is that in all those instances is that the fire that occurs on Dany, doesn’t hurt her but acts more as a element of renewal, purification etc.

I really love the idea of Dany as Phoenix.

I'd like to point out that in Christology, the Phoenix is a very important symbol for Christ and his death and resurrection in the Christian belief. The way AAR is talked about by the Red Priests in Voltanis--someone who ends the Darkness and conquers death--is also akin to the idea of Christ's final battle in which he will raise up the dead and cast Satan into a pit and there will be peace and light for a long time.

Now, this isn't just a Christian idea, it's a pretty universal archetypical motif of a Promised Savior who brings salvation to his people. But all of this is connected: the phoenix, resurrection, revival of the dead, a great battle, the end of darkness. I waffle a lot on who AAR actually is, though at the moment I am starting to lean more toward Dany (who else would be Fire's Champion if not the Dragon/Phoenix?) but what I'm firm on is that Dany's role in the coming War for the Dawn is going to be paramount.

I am worried that this means she'll die in sacrifice in the end, but it'll be in a blaze of glory. Probably literally.

The chapter also confirms this theme by Dany naming Drogon’s cave as the place she was born

The hill loomed larger down here. Dany had taken to calling it Drag-onstone, after the ancient citadel where she’d been born.

So we can look at this as Dany being born on the Dothraki sea at Dragonstone, just like her being born on the original one.

So more of a conclusion to all my thoughts, I see Drogon burning Dany in Daznik’s pit as another form of rebirth for her and it is completed on the Dothraki sea, which is symbolized by her appearing on “Dragonstone” on the Dothraki sea which is symbolically where she was born (so reborn). Also her hair being burnt and having to grow again is another symbol of her completing a cycle and starting again.

I've had this idea in my head for awhile now, but if Dany does survive the War for the Dawn, I feel like she might go back to THIS Dragonstone, with Drogon (and...maybe a certain knight), and live out her life there as the Khaleesi of Khaleesi's.

From the last chapter and this one, we get to see first hands experience of a rider riding a dragon through Dany’s point of view. The feeling in the last chapter was a very euphoric feeling from Dany. This leads me into believing that the action of a rider riding his or her dragon triggers a form of ecstasy for both parties. The simplest definition of ecstasy is an overwhelming feeling of great happiness to the extent where the rest of the world seems to disappear. In Psychological terms, this would be called an altered state of consciousness. This is also exactly how Dany feels when riding Drogon from the quotes below:

And this is one of the biggest reasons why I can't ever--EVER--see her handing over Drogon over to someone else. To give up this feeling, this ecstasy (GREAT word for it, BTW) would be like giving up part of her soul. Jon and Tyrion can be dragon riders. Good for them. But they are NOT getting Drogon.

The dragonlords of old Valyria had controlled their mounts with binding spells and sorcerous horns. Daenerys made do with a word and a whip.

This is telling. She's BETTER than the Dragonlords of old Valyria. Her bond with Drogon is STRONGER than any other dragon/dragonrider in history. Amidst chaos and fear and blood and screaming, she tamed a dragon with a word and whip!!!!!

*fist pump for our Silver Queen*

Just because the identity of dragon, blood and fire can do bad doesn’t mean that identity can’t do good, why can’t it be both?

Brilliant. This was my favorite section of your analysis.

This is something I see get so misconstrued on the forums at large. There seems to be a belief that FIRE AND BLOOD can only mean death and destruction and that Dany remembering her words only signals bad things. But death comes from life and life comes from death. And that's what Dany is. She is the embodiment of the never ending nature of life and death. And really that's what fire and blood means.

Fire can be a powerful destructive force; it can burn cities and men and leave carnage in it's wake. But it's also warmth and light and will protect you from the dark and from the cold. Blood can mean war and terror but it's also how we stay alive. It literally keeps human beings moving and alive. It's life and death combined.

I think this is what I love most about Dany. She's not a static good guy or bad guy, just like life and death are neither good nor bad, but both. She is both. She's going to burn the shit out of Slaver's Bay but you know what comes from that: life, renewal, rebirth, a chance to start over and make something better.

The first vision is magical since Quaithe uses glass candles however I see the last two more based on Dany’s subconscious of what people she love, would say regarding the dragon identity. The visions also symbolize the inner conflict I talked about earlier, which is about her not accepting that she can use fire and blood/ the identity of a dragon for the good intentions she has. However the fact that she replies to Ser Jorah when he tells her “Remember your words” shows that she is starting to give it a second thought. What’s also important to note is that Dany only started to give into consideration after Mormont’s vision, which shows how much value his words have to her and how important he is to her.

I have a lot I want to say about the visions in the Sea and that's coming next in a separate post but just want to say: yes, Jorah's words mean a lot to her. Also, the fact that she wants to press her face to his chest, to see his ugly face, and the fact that she wishes "her bear" would pick her up when she falls...telling. So telling. Come what may between these two, there is a bond that is undeniable and important to both of them.

It also does really terrible emo things to my insides. :love:

When the issue of "Dragons plant no trees" comes up, it isn't about "dragons don't build structures" , it's that dragons don't use the planting method to bring peace. Or in Dany's mind eye she can bring peace through another way.

Agreed. Dany tried to plant trees and it didn't work because it's not true to who she is. But like I said above about fire and blood, the way to deal with Slaver's Bay isn't necessarily a negative thing. In order for those trees to be planted for real, first you must scorch the earth and let it renew.

A missing King?

Through out ADWD we have had teases that Dany has a missing King, one from Tyrion where he sees the Valyrian Sphinx and one from Irri where she says a Khaleesi must have a Khal. However her missing king is actually her dragon, Drogon. Before Drogon comes the grass is described as having no king.

The grass swayed and bowed low, as if before a king, but no king appeared to her.

But when he arrives it is shown that he is the King,

When the sound of his hooves had faded away to silence, she began to shout. She called until her voice was hoarse … and Drogon came, snorting plumes of smoke. The grass bowed down before him.

Ah, yes. The controversial section when it comes to Dany, Jon and Drogon.

This is my own interpretation: Dany is bowing to Jon with the stone. I do believe she will give up her claim to Jon, who is Rhaegar's trueborn son.

HOWEVER, the Dorthraki grass is bowing to Drogon. I think this is indicative that the Dothraki, who appear at the very end of the chapter, will bow down to Drogon and his rider at the Stallion Who Mounts the World. The grass bowing to Drogon, to me, has nothing to do with Jon.

I posited earlier in the re-read that Daario symbolizes Dany as a dragon whiles Hizdahr symbolizes her being chained, this presented well in the chapter as Dany makes the distinction between them, and Daario would eating with her like Drogon whiles hIzdahr would find it horrifying just like the way Dany used to think of her dragons earlier in the story.

I agree. I don't think Dany is choosing Daario, the man and lover, but rather what he represents, which is the dragon and war. I also think that's why she's thinking about him so much on the Grass. It's not DAARIO she's thinking of, but rather the idea of war and the dragon finding her. But that's not how it works. She must choose to be the Dragon again--something Vision! Jorah helps her with.

The chapter ends with Dany changing her direction from Meereen to head north-east to meet the Dothraki riders, though one thing is for sure, I don’t think she is heading to Mereen at the moment as she clearly knows Drogon doesn’t want to go there. Where she ends up, we’ll have to wait until the next novel.

:cheers:

Here's to waiting for Winds of Winter!

[BearQueen87]

This is my own interpretation of the three visions Dany has in the Dothraki Sea, during her final POV in A Dance With Dragons.

First, credit to Queen Alysanne who got me thinking about this when she posted in a previous iteration of our Dany re-read thread:

From the triple goddess in mythology, we have the 3 phases of the moon:

Maiden

Mother

Crone

This got me thinking about triple gods and goddesses and how it relates to Dany’s three visions in the final POV.

To begin, while not as common as the triple goddess, there is a triple god; I believe GRRM also makes this exist in-universe with Six of the Seven. Each aspect of the triple goddess has a consort (triple god) and a specific time of day associated with that triple god (much like the triple goddess has a time of the moon associate with her).

To lay this out:

The Maiden—Sun Up—The Warrior

The Mother—Midday/Noon—The Father

The Crone—Sun Down—The Sage

I think GRRM is playing around with this basic idea here, though, being GRRM he is mixing it up a bit. I am going to take these visions as they appear in Dany’s final POV.

1. The Crone—Sun Down—The Sage (Dany and Quaithe)

The vision of Quaithe is by far the briefest but a few things stand out. First, two out of the three dreams have Dany asleep, this being the first. That’s important; Dany is awake when she finally remembers who she is. We know this is not only sun down but at night because Quaithe is depicted as a bodyless star. Her dream of Quaithe is taking place before the next morning, so around sun down leading into night. How do we know? “The next morning when she woke....” It’s pretty obvious that she is Dany’s “sage” adviser giving her riddles that try to tease out who Dany is.

To plug this into the above equation

Dany—Sun Down—Quaithe

2. Maiden—Sun Up—Warrior (Dany and Viserys)

Again, this is a dream; Dany is not awake for this one. Viserys is the warrior who would take back their kingdom, but he was never a king in his own right (even though Dany once said he was; Westeros would not consider him as such.) Also, Viserys is a bit of a twisted warrior. When we first meet him in Game, he’s wearing a borrowed sword and continues to display this most obvious symbol of being a warrior, without actually being one.

Obviously, Dany is not a literal maiden anymore having had sex for the first time back in aGoT. But in this dream, she is a symbolic maiden, being yelled at by her brother again. Her symbolic maidenhood is also emphasized in the blood that she finds upon her waking. The blood on her thighs could be either her moon’s blood, a symbol that a girl has moved into maidenhood or a miscarriage, a symbol that a girl has left maidenhood and entered motherhood. Also, notice that “the moon is still a crescent.” The crescent moon is a symbol of the maiden in the triple goddess symbology.

Even though this is a dream, there are hints that this is the beginning of a new day, or sun up. The mud Dany uses is cool because of “the chill of dawn” but it’s still early enough that the moon is visible. More over, Dany gets up and continues her journey; it’s a new day for walking.

To plug this into the above formula:

Dany—Sun Up—Viserys

3. Mother—Midday/Noon—Father (Dany and Jorah)

First, I want to start with how we know this is midday. This vision of Jorah comes on the heels of Dany’s last dream of Viserys, after she has done a fair amount of walking.

She raised her eyes to the empty blue sky, squinting at the sun. Half the morning gone already, she realized, dismayed.

[snip]

The day grew warmer, and the sun beat down upon her head and the burnt remnants of her hair.

Notice that there is a bit of a time jump here. The last we heard, we were still “in the chill of the dawn,” but now the morning is half gone (putting us at midday) and before long the sun is beating down on Dany’s head, meaning we are around noon or afternoon.

Dany is awake; this is really important. Of the three visions, this is the only one she is awake for and it’s the first time, out of all three, that Dany will utter her house words: “Fire and Blood.” At the end of this dream, she remembers not only her words but who she is. And I think it’s very important that who she is…is the Mother. She’s not the maiden and she’s not a crone, but she’s still the Mother of Dragons. And every mother needs the consort, the father.

To plug this into the formula,

Dany—Sun Up—Jorah

I think it’s very interesting that at this moment, when she is symbolically the Mother once more, and remembers who she is, it’s not Drogo that comes to her. Drogo was her sun-and-stars and father to Rhaego. Nor is it Daario with whom she’s been having a sexual relationship with and dreaming of a house with a red door and a simple life. And yet, it’s not Daario nor Drogo who appear to remind her of her motherhood; it’s Jorah.

I would also like to point out that this is not the first time some sort of Vision! Jorah has helped Dany figure out who she is. From Dany’s 2^nd to last POV in GOT:

Ser Jorah's face was drawn and sorrowful. "Rhaegar was the last dragon," he told her. He warmed translucent hands over a glowing brazier where stone eggs smouldered red as coals. One moment he was there and the next he was fading, his flesh colorless, less substantial than the wind. "The last dragon," he whispered, thin as a wisp, and was gone. She felt the dark behind her, and the red door seemed farther away than ever.

[snip]

She threw open the door.

" . . . the dragon . . . "

And saw her brother Rhaegar, mounted on a stallion as black as his armor. Fire glimmered red through the narrow eye slit of his helm. "The last dragon," Ser Jorah's voice whispered faintly. "The last, the last." Dany lifted his polished black visor. The face within was her own.

A couple things of note here. First, when Jorah vanishes, Dany feels that her red door, a symbol of home and safety and love, is further away than ever. And when she opens the door, Jorah’s voice is there along with her-as-Rhaegar. Not to dwell, but the feeling of the red door being lost is the same feeling she has in her final POV in ASOS when she is searching for the red door after saying goodbye to “Jorah” in the night:

Perhaps one was Ser Jorah, leading his horse slowly toward the gate. Farewell, old bear. Farewell, betrayer.

[snip]

"My city," said Dany. "I was looking for a house with a red door, but by night all the doors are black."

Second, it’s Jorah’s voice whispering faintly when Dany’s subconscious realizes she is the Last Dragon. And in our ADWD chapter, we have Jorah whispering to her to remember her words.

What do I make of ALL of this? One thing most of all: Jorah Mormont is the Father of Dragons (specifically the Father of Drogon, the dragon with whom Dany has the strongest connection.)

I am going to try and show that there is a marriage—insemination—birth with Jorah, Dany, and Drogon acting as the family unit. This three fold process is how a “typical” relationship would develop but, of course, because this is GRRM he does not do things by the book, but mixes them up.

1. Insemination of Drogon.

I was participating in this thread http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/105531-what-would-have-happened-if-jorah-didnt-take-dany-into-the-tent/

when Apple Martini wrote something that really stood out to me:

I think that Rhaego's life is what quickened the dragon eggs. It's why Rhaego appeared to have been dead for so long: The death in the eggs was swapped for Rhaego's life force. I also get the impression that bringing Dany into the tent is in fact what did it; if the power in the tent could go beyond the tent, why specify the tent as the point of demarcation? Why was no one else affected if the magic could "get out" of the tent?

This is how aGoT describes the moment:

She was being carried. Her eyes opened to gaze up at a flat dead sky, black and bleak and starless. Please, no. The sound of Mirri Maz Duur’s voice grew louder, until it filled the world. The shapes! she screamed The dancers! Ser Jorah carried her inside the tent.

In other words, following what Apple Martini says, Ser Jorah carries Dany across a threshold, and the dragon eggs are “inseminated” and quickened. It’s possible that all the dragon eggs got a bit of this life force, but I think we can safely say that Drogon got the lion’s share as he is the closet to Dany. In this moment , Jorah is acting as the “husband” figure and it is only through him taking Dany inside the tent that the dragons are quickened. All three of parties—eggs, Dany, Jorah—are affected. The eggs are quickened, Dany gives birth to a stillborn, and Jorah is left gray and haunted.

2. A Symbolic Marriage

Next comes the symbolic “marriage” of Dany and Jorah. It has been pointed out that when a knight swears to protect a lady, it’s very akin to a marriage contract. If you get past the trappings of place and ceremony, there is something very basic about both Northern and Southron weddings: the man brings the woman under his protection via a cloak and then there is a kiss to seal.

Example: Southron Wedding (Sansa and Tyrion)

She had dreamed of her wedding a thousand times, and always she had pictured how her betrothed would stand behind her tall and strong, sweep the cloak of his protection over her shoulders, and tenderly kiss her cheek as he learned forward to fasten the clasp….

[snip]

“With this kiss, I pledge my love, and take you for my lord and husband.”

“With this kiss, I pledge my love,” the dwarf replied hoarsely, “and take you for my lady and wife.” He leaned forward and their lips touched briefly.

But a knight does not “protect” with a cloak. He protects with a sword, which is why knight swear their swords to their liege. Jorah did this with Viserys in aGoT and he does it again with Dany in her final POV in aGoT. But notice how it’s done:

She nodded, as calmly as if she had not heard his answer, and turned to the last of her champions. "Ser Jorah Mormont," she said, "first and greatest of my knights, I have no bride gift to give you, but I swear to you, one day you shall have from my hands a longsword like none the world has ever seen, dragon-forged and made of Valyrian steel. And I would ask for your oath as well."

"You have it, my queen," Ser Jorah said, kneeling to lay his sword at her feet. "I vow to serve you, to obey you, to die for you if need be."

"Whatever may come?"

"Whatever may come."

"I shall hold you to that oath. I pray you never regret the giving of it." Dany lifted him to his feet. Stretching on her toes to reach his lips, she kissed the knight gently and said, "You are the first of my Queensguard."

Notice what we have here: two people swearing pledges to each other, a symbol of protection being given, and a kiss. It’s a symbolic marriage if not a literal one.

3. The Birth of the Babe

We all know how Dany’s dragon’s are born, so I’m not going to dwell too much but I do want to point out that when Drogon’s egg cracks, it’s as loud and sharp as the breaking of the world…and the screams coming from the tent when Jorah carries Dany into it, are so loud that they fill the world. Instead, I want to show a connection between Jorah and Drogon, father and dragon-son.

When Dany wakes from delivering Rhaego, she has Ser Jorah brought to her. Jorah is the very first person to touch the dragon eggs after Rhaego died and his life force went into them. Notice which one Jorah touches?

Ser Jorah and Mirri Maz Duur entered a few moments later, and found Dany standing over the other dragon's eggs, the two still in their chest. It seemed to her that they felt as hot as the one she had slept with, which was passing strange. "Ser Jorah, come here," she said. She took his hand and placed it on the black egg with the scarlet swirls. "What do you feel?"

There is, I feel, some iconic imagery of mother, father, and baby here. A mother puts the father’s hand on her stomach to feel the babe they made together. In this case, as in some real life cases, the mother feels the babe before the father is able; Jorah can only feel scales and stone.

When Jorah finds Dany after the pyre has burned down, two dragons are busy suckling at Dany’s breasts. Drogon, is curled around Dany’s neck. It’s very interesting that the first face Drogon sees (besides Dany’s face) is Jorah’s and, in fact, Drogon looks him right in the eye.

The black-and-scarlet beast was draped across her shoulders, its long sinuous neck coiled under her chin. When it saw Jorah, it raised its head and looked at him with eyes as red as coals.

This is, IMO, a HUGE callback to the first time we met Drogon, even before Dany got her dragon eggs. From aGoT, Dany II:

There are no more dragons, Dany thought, staring at her brother, though she did not dare say it aloud. Yet that night she dreamt of one. Viserys was hitting her, hurting her. She was naked, clumsy with fear. She ran from him, but her body seemed thick and ungainly. He struck her again. She stumbled and fell. "You woke the dragon," he screamed as he kicked her. "You woke the dragon, you woke the dragon." Her thighs were slick with blood. She closed her eyes and whimpered. As if in answer, there was a hideous ripping sound and the crackling of some great fire. When she looked again, Viserys was gone, great columns of flame rose all around, and in the midst of them was the dragon. It turned its great head slowly. When its molten eyes found hers, she woke, shaking and covered with a fine sheen of sweat

Notice the similarities? In Jorah’s case we have a literal just-born dragon that raises its head, looks directly at him with red firey eyes. In Dany’s case we have a metaphorical dream dragon, who turns its head, and looks directly at her with molten eyes.

There are some other instances where there is a Dany/Drogon/Jorah connection working as a family unit and I’ll touch on these briefly. Some, I admit, are a bit more stretchy than others.

1) Jorah is the one who asks Dany what she intends to name Drogon (Clash, Dany I)

2) When Jorah and Dany discuss how best to proceed with Xaro and Qarth, Drogon joins them on the couch while the other two dragons stay away (Clash, Dany III)

3) When Dany emerges from the House of the Undying, with Drogon, she is attacked by Pyat Pree, and Drogon defends Dany while, “Ser Jorah Mormont knelt beside Dany in the cool green grass and put his arm around her shoulder.” (Clash, Dany VI)

4) The first time Dany demonstrates “dracarys” it is with Drogon and some meat, and she does it for Jorah to see. (Swords, Dany I)

5) The first time Dany masturbates, following Jorah’s kiss, her scream of pleasure gets confused with Drogon’s screaming. Following this moment, Dany reminds herself that it has nothing to do with Jorah (though just a few paragraphs before she acknowledges that his kiss awakens something in her). (Swords, Dany II)

6) When Jorah and Dany have their first real fight, it’s Drogon who comforts her by “playing” with her. (Swords, Dany IV)

So what all does this mean? Since I joined the re-read, I’ve been trying to show that there’s a lot more going on between Dany and Jorah than just an unrequited romance. Do I think that they are going to live happily ever after with Drogon on Bear Island in a house with a Red Door? Probably not. But I do think that through the analysis I just provided there is something very deep between Daenerys Targaryen and Jorah Mormont, and when the two come back together, in Winds, things may, at the very least, be acknowledged between then. From there….only George knows.

[MoIaF]

1) This was an excellent analysis, Queen Alysanne. Really, well done!

2) :bawl: I don't want this to be over!! We're totally doing it again when Winds comes out

3) Like a lot of you, I'm sure, I have a lot to say about this chapter but instead of making my post ridiculously long, I'm going to break it up into two. First is a response to QA, then my own interpretation of the visions on the Sea and my big conclusion to "what is going on with Daenerys Targaryen and Jorah Mormont"

:bawl: I'm really sad to, to see the re-read end. It has been a great experience and I'm very grateful to everyone who has participated in it. I've definitely learned a lot and changed my mind about more than a few things. We definitely have to do a Winds re-read but in the mean time we might just have to use the World of Ice and Fire connect it to Dany somehow and start another re-read. :wink:

On to business...

I really love the idea of Dany as Phoenix.

I'd like to point out that in Christology, the Phoenix is a very important symbol for Christ and his death and resurrection in the Christian belief. The way AAR is talked about by the Red Priests in Voltanis--someone who ends the Darkness and conquers death--is also akin to the idea of Christ's final battle in which he will raise up the dead and cast Satan into a pit and there will be peace and light for a long time.

Now, this isn't just a Christian idea, it's a pretty universal archetypical motif of a Promised Savior who brings salvation to his people. But all of this is connected: the phoenix, resurrection, revival of the dead, a great battle, the end of darkness. I waffle a lot on who AAR actually is, though at the moment I am starting to lean more toward Dany (who else would be Fire's Champion if not the Dragon/Phoenix?) but what I'm firm on is that Dany's role in the coming War for the Dawn is going to be paramount.

I am worried that this means she'll die in sacrifice in the end, but it'll be in a blaze of glory. Probably literally.

I discuss the topic of AAR almost always when it comes up, I'm more in the camp that Dany is actually the Prince(ss) who was Promise, but that's nor here nor there. What I never usually get to discuss is that I think there will be multiple iteration of this hero.

GRRM plays with the idea of prophecy and what we do when we know a prophecy. But perhaps we are looking at this the wrong way, perhaps we should be looking at the people who are doing heroic acts without knowing about a prophecy. That is being a hero without having to be told. There are many of them in the book but this is the Dany re-read so lets focus on her.

One of the most heroic act in the books (to me at least) is Dany's quest to abolish slavery. Now, this didn't start like an intellectual process, where she consider the subjugation of the slaves of Essos and formed a plan to abolish slavery everywhere. It started as a gut feeling that what was happening in Astapor was an atrocity that needed to be stopped. Nobody had to tell her that it was wrong, or that she needed to do something about it, she just did it. Dany's intuition can be at times a mix blessing but it has served her right more often than not.

Going back to the chapter and her in ADWD, she suppressed that intuition (that dragon) she put it aside when she probably needed it the most. We see it in her thinking the day of and night of her wedding when she considers all that she had to give up for "peace", she knew in her heart of hearts that it was wrong.

Well, that was a tangent...

I think this is what I love most about Dany. She's not a static good guy or bad guy, just like life and death are neither good nor bad, but both. She is both. She's going to burn the shit out of Slaver's Bay but you know what comes from that: life, renewal, rebirth, a chance to start over and make something better.

Slaver's Bay need to burn, it is a cesspool of evil (not the salves but the slaving industry). It has been so stagnant for so long that you need to sort of cleanse the land in order to start anew.

What is that the Undying tell Dnay:

[she is{] he fire, the life...

Jorah

I need to process this.. :)

[MoIaF]

Jorah snip

There is a lot here to consider. I have to be honest I was a little overwhelmed when I read it. :D

To begin, while not as common as the triple goddess, there is a triple god; I believe GRRM also makes this exist in-universe with Six of the Seven. Each aspect of the triple goddess has a consort (triple god) and a specific time of day associated with that triple god (much like the triple goddess has a time of the moon associate with her).

To lay this out:

The Maiden—Sun Up—The Warrior

The Mother—Midday/Noon—The Father

The Crone—Sun Down—The Sage

I think GRRM is playing around with this basic idea here, though, being GRRM he is mixing it up a bit. I am going to take these visions as they appear in Dany’s final POV

This is really interesting and although I never considered it, it makes absolute sense. I was discussing the symbolism of the series with another poster and we got to how GRRM uses a lot of duality in his series (.e. Ice & fire, but also men and women. We see instances where role are reversed (Jaime & Brienne) as well as some with more typical roles.

Anyhow, for the series as a whole I've always seen Jon as Dany counterpart in the men/woman dichotomy, however, I like your idea of having Jorah play Dany's counterpart (to some extent) within her own arc. Just like she's the metaphorical Mother of Dragon', Jorah has served as a metaphorical father to the dragons, although, I wouldn't call him a Father of Dragon, because he has no true bond with them , however, as per your examples he helped facilitate their insemination and birth.

Am I understanding this so far?

Dany is awake; this is really important. Of the three visions, this is the only one she is awake for and it’s the first time, out of all three, that Dany will utter her house words: “Fire and Blood.” At the end of this dream, she remembers not only her words but who she is. And I think it’s very important that who she is…is the Mother. She’s not the maiden and she’s not a crone, but she’s still the Mother of Dragons. And every mother needs the consort, the father.

So, I think this is where I might see things a bit more differently from you. This is really a great sequence because it's the person she trusted the most (for a long time) that helps her see the light, see that she has forgotten who she is and she believes him and takes his advice to heart.

One thing that Dany knows is that Jorah will always be straight with her (unless it has to do with men, but that's a different story. ;) ) Here, I see Jorah once again as a facilitator (I wish I had a better word) he gets her to where she needs to be, however, she needs to take the final step, and this I think is symbolized by her tripping on the rock.

"A stone turned under her foot. She stumbled to one knee and cried out in pain , hoping against hope that her bear would gather her up and help her to her feet. When she turned her head to look for him, all she saw was trickling brown water … and the grass, still moving slightly."

She want's Jorah to pick her up after her stumble but he's not there, this part of her journey she has to do on her own. Jorah always presents her with the facts, but Dany always makes the last decision. He once again presented her with the facts, now she needs to decided which direction she wants to go.

Now, I can be completely wrong about this, so....

2. A Symbolic Marriage

Next comes the symbolic “marriage” of Dany and Jorah. It has been pointed out that when a knight swears to protect a lady, it’s very akin to a marriage contract. If you get past the trappings of place and ceremony, there is something very basic about both Northern and Southron weddings: the man brings the woman under his protection via a cloak and then there is a kiss to seal.

I'm having hard time articulating how I see this. There are a lot of very good examples here but I sort of see it as a cementing of their strong bond, because let's be honest they are very important to each other.

Please don't hate me but I see Jorah as a great sidekick to Dany but I don't think he's her counterpart. Not because he's a knight and she's a queen (that would be very romantic if done well) but for reasons I can't articulate right now for some reason.

I will say this I think your examples of how Dany thinks of Jorah and seeks his support in these really important moments, her fevered dream and her Vision Quest, is very telling of how important her relationship with Jorah is to Dany.

​Since the beginning of the series Jorah has been a constant for Dany, her life had very little consistency to it, I don't think she's ever known true stability. Her relationship with Jorah (up to the point of her having found out about the betrayal ) has been constant and pretty stable. I can see why Dany would associate him with home, because she craves that stability, that consistency.

I think.... :blushing:

So what all does this mean? Since I joined the re-read, I’ve been trying to show that there’s a lot more going on between Dany and Jorah than just an unrequited romance. Do I think that they are going to live happily ever after with Drogon on Bear Island in a house with a Red Door? Probably not. But I do think that through the analysis I just provided there is something very deep between Daenerys Targaryen and Jorah Mormont, and when the two come back together, in Winds, things may, at the very least, be acknowledged between then. From there….only George knows.

You have done that well Madam, and I thank you! :cheers:

[BearQueen87]

There is a lot here to consider. I have to be honest I was a little overwhelmed when I read it. :D

HA! I'll take that as a compliment. Or a sign that I'm insane, which is very possible.

This is really interesting and although I never considered it, it makes absolute sense. I was discussing the symbolism of the series with another poster and we got to how GRRM uses a lot of duality in his series (.e. Ice & fire, but also men and women. We see instances where role are reversed (Jaime & Brienne) as well as some with more typical roles.

Jaime and Briennne, Sandor and Sansa, and in a truly horribly way Joffery and Sansa. They are all the courtly love trope twisted and subverted. And that is ultimately what I think GRRM is doing with Dany and Jorah, more so than other aforementioned couples. You have a queen of surpassing loveliness and a knight who would die out of love for her. But then it just so happens that the Queen has dragons and crucifies people and the knight is neither young nor handsome and he's also an ex-slaver with a ruthless streak. Jorah won't sing her songs or win tourneys in her honor. He's not the knight out of a fairy tale, but she's not a queen from one either. Someday--gosh, SOMEDAY--I am going to sit down and write out exactly what I think is happening between them in terms of the "steps" in courtly love and how GRRM has taken those steps, messed and mixed them up and then given them back to us in a very unique way.

Anyhow, for the series as a whole I've always seen Jon as Dany counterpart in the men/woman dichotomy, however, I like your idea of having Jorah play Dany's counterpart (to some extent) within her own arc. Just like she's the metaphorical Mother of Dragon', Jorah has served as a metaphorical father to the dragons, although, I wouldn't call him a Father of Dragon, because he has no true bond with them , however, as per your examples he helped facilitate their insemination and birth.

I definitely get why Jon is considered here as her counterpart: the prince, the princess; the hero/ the heroine; the queen/the lord commander. My biggest problem is that Jon is so dualistic himself (as ice and fire) that it's hard to find another like him as "counterpart."

I think that Dany's true male counterpart is probably Bran--the Magical Ice to her Magical Fire, but I don't see Bran and Dany ever being more than opposites in the coming war (to be discussed further in our Bran re-read...).

But apart from the "magical" aspect, Jorah is a lot like the qualities we associate in Jon as "counterpart." He's not prince, but he was a Lord (Jon was Lord Snow); he's hero in the most broad sense of the word cause I may love My Bear a lot but I know he's got his flaws; he WAS the Lord Commander of her QG; Jorah is of the North and his winters are just as harsh (as he tells Dany in clash). He has the Blood of the First Men in his veins too.

I don't see Jorah ever being on equal footing, and to be fair, I don't think Jorah does either. He's willing to die for her, but he would never expect that she would die for him.

The best match might be one of perfect equals, but in GRRM's world we seldom get that. Cat and Ned are atypical. I think Jorah is fine being "sidekick" in status because he's never had designs on being her king. In fact, on Balerion, when he kisses her and reminds her what the three heads means--he doesn't even use the word King anywhere. He just says "husband" to her Queen.

As for the Father of Dragons and his connection/bond to Drogon...I think this is equally hard to express because no one is going to have a more solid bond to Drogon to Dany. But there are some places, like the ones I pointed out, where Jorah and Dany and Drogon act as a really bizarre family unit. I think I left one out, but there is a point in Game where Dany instructs Jorah to light a fire and then place her eggs (starting with Drogon's egg) into it, as if he's responsible for bringing them into the world. She doesn't do this with anyone else, even Drogo, after whom she names her dragon. It's..hard to explain. And again, I might be way too romantic about all this.

She want's Jorah to pick her up after her stumble but he's not there, this part of her journey she has to do on her own. Jorah always presents her with the facts, but Dany always makes the last decision. He once again presented her with the facts, now she needs to decided which direction she wants to go.

And I think Real! Jorah is okay with the fact that Dany always makes the last decision. He's never overstepped in terms of giving advice. He tells her not to take Meereen, but she sends him to take it anyway. He tells her not to trust Daario, she yells at him, and his response isn't to yell back, it's to nod and say "if my Queen commands." I think Jorah will spend the rest of his life, however long it may be, doing whatever Daenerys Targaryen tells him to do. It's never going to be an equal relationship, but Jorah's kinda okay with that.

I think the part of her journey that she had to do alone was also a big part of ADWD. It will continue in WOW probably shown most by her time with the Dothraki, but when she arrives back in Meereen, I think she'll be ready to NOT be alone anymore.

I'm having hard time articulating how I see this. There are a lot of very good examples here but I sort of see it as a cementing of their strong bond, because let's be honest they are very important to each other.

It's the kiss that points me in the direction I took the analysis. If she hadn't kissed him....

It might just be Dany thanking him for being the only person to swear to her, but at the same time, the whole moment is heavily symbolic and ritualized with the swearing and oaths that it's more than just a knight swearing his protection. And he doesn't even need to; he gave his sword, officially, to Dany a page or two before this "official" swearing. The fact that it ends with a kiss, on the lips, not his cheek or forehead like the other times she kisses him (she kisses him a bit...); I guess it's just hard for me to not read into this whole situation.

Please don't hate me but I see Jorah as a great sidekick to Dany but I don't think he's her counterpart. Not because he's a knight and she's a queen (that would be very romantic if done well) but for reasons I can't articulate right now for some reason.

Awww, I could never hate you!!

I think the reason why you can't articulate it (and I'm just spitballing here) is because GRRM has set it up so that you don't see them as counterparts. She's beautiful, he's not. She's emotional; he's pragmatic; she freed slaves; he sold them. she's young; he's older; she thinks she can save everyone; he think she can't.

Since the beginning of the series Jorah has been a constant for Dany, her life had very little consistency to it, I don't think she's ever known true stability. Her relationship with Jorah (up to the point of her having found out about the betrayal ) has been constant and pretty stable. I can see why Dany would associate him with home, because she craves that stability, that consistency.

This makes me think of a moment that is quite possibly my favorite between these two:

She meant to sleep afterward, to be well rested for the morrow, but an hour of restless tossing in the stuffy confines of the cabin soon convinced her that was hopeless. Outside her door she found Aggo fitting a new string to his bow by the light of a swinging oil lamp. Rakharo sat crosslegged on the deck beside him, sharpening his arakh with a whetstone. Dany told them both to keep on with what they were doing, and went up on deck for a taste of the cool night air. The crew left her alone as they went about their business, but Ser Jorah soon joined her by the rail. He is never far, Dany thought. He knows my moods too well.

[snip]

"I was alone for a long time, Jorah. All alone but for my brother. I was such a small scared thing. Viserys should have protected me, but instead he hurt me and scared me worse. He shouldn't have done that. He wasn't just my brother, he was my king. Why do the gods make kings and queens, if not to protect the ones who can't protect themselves?"

"Some kings make themselves. Robert did."

"He was no true king," Dany said scornfully. "He did no justice. Justice . . . that's what kings are for."

Ser Jorah had no answer. He only smiled, and touched her hair, so lightly. It was enough.

This last sentence speaks volumes to me. This is pure intimacy right here. She's confessing how alone and scared she's always been and she needs is to know that he is there. Nothing more, nothing less. No words of comfort, no declarations of love and admiration and comfort. Just one tiny touch of his hand and it's enough to give her strength.

GAAAAH. I'll stop before I get really disgusting.

You have done that well Madam, and I thank you! :cheers:

You guys have been great about letting me wax on and on about these two without calling me a loon, so I appreciate it. :)

[JonCon's Red Beard]

First, Viserys' "cameo" here breaks my heart. Even though he played the role of the abuser here, he was as much as a victim as Dany. He was only 8 when the Rebelion happened and considering his mother kept him away from his father's crazyness, he probably never actually knew the truth of it, hence, the "lies" he told Dany. Yet, he protected her and got her safe. His final plea is heartbreaking. At least, it is too me. And Dany still feels guilty about it. Not only he names one of his dragons after him, but he does as a way of keeping him alive. He has never forgot about her brother.

Number two, we had Cersei's arc in Feast, yet, Martin choose to culminate it here, with the Walk of Shame.

Why?

I think this is the final and absolute confirmation of them both being parallel but now going in different directions.

They both started in Dance being isolated, fearful, alone, both suffering the consequences of their mistakes, trying to be Queens. Dany is starving and eats what Dragon eats. Cersei is fed by others, because she's not completely abandoned. But she's not a Queen to their eyes anymore, she's with people that won't respect her. And Jaime didn't return to save her. Dragon did return. Barristan and the rest of her people is looking for Dany. The people in KL claim for Margaery, not Cersei.

And their minds couldn't be more opposite as well. Dany starts full with regret. Cersei is thinking about getting even and is already planning revenge. Dany sees people that has left her and they talk to her, and she's full with pain and sadness about them. Cersei sees the people she has wrong,ed, but she feels nothing about them. She hasn't changed, we see that in the epilogue.

Dany bonds with Drogon, an instrument of destruction that she surely will use to rebuild. Cersei is given an abomination, an undead monster under the disguised of a holy knight that she will use to destroy her enemies.

Also, they both are now bald. This has a double meaning: 1. They have both lost their golden crowns and 2. They are meant to be reborn, as children are born without hair (mostly of them at least).

But the most important thing here is the nature of their "walk of penance", so to speak.

Dany has won the right to be Queen on her own, unlike Cersei. She not only has her dragons, she has used them to gain an army, and her actions have earned her the respect of her people. People come from everywhere to her because she is a force in the world. She represents power and strength. Yet, pretty much like Cersei, she has taken wrong decisions, due to inexperience. It has nothing to do with her dragons. Because, let's be honest, what wouldn't Cersei give for having a dragon? Dany has them and she has ended up in the same situation: walking semi-naked and bald and stripped from power. Cersei's WoS is one of the most controversial chapters of the books because the subject of sexism and misogyny are always brought. But we have Dany who has also ended up in a similar position despite she's not scolded for her sexual life, she's not thought less for being a woman (kinda) and having a very strong military force. And we also have Jon. This is not because they are women: it's because they couldn't handle their own situations. The three of them.

Yet, Cersei wasn't saved. Cersei was abandoned by everybody. She caused that herself. Dany has been saved by Drogo. They are bonding as one. She will use Drogo to achieve her goals and fate because Drogo is part of her. Cersei has lost what it was part of her, Jaime. She's own her own and that's how GRRM has chosen to leave her in Dance. Dany is facing a khalasar with a Dragon next to her. I think it's very telling how t hey both are ending their plots in the book: one of them is trying to cling into power, a power she doesn't deserve, while Dany has recover her dragon and strength. She's not going mad nor will end up a villain.

[BearQueen87]

[snip]

This was a thing of beauty and I think you should post it every time someone says Dany is going mad or going to become Aerys 2.0.

I couldn't agree more. Those two walks are parallels but the outcome for the Queens are different. I'm glad GRRM decided to put the WoS in Dance instead of Feast.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

This was a thing of beauty and I think you should post it every time someone says Dany is going mad or going to become Aerys 2.0.

I couldn't agree more. Those two walks are parallels but the outcome for the Queens are different. I'm glad GRRM decided to put the WoS in Dance instead of Feast.

I've been tempted to open a thread, but you know how mostly Dany threads end up :dunno:

[MoIaF]

First, Viserys' "cameo" here breaks my heart. Even though he played the role of the abuser here, he was as much as a victim as Dany. He was only 8 when the Rebelion happened and considering his mother kept him away from his father's crazyness, he probably never actually knew the truth of it, hence, the "lies" he told Dany. Yet, he protected her and got her safe. His final plea is heartbreaking. At least, it is too me. And Dany still feels guilty about it. Not only he names one of his dragons after him, but he does as a way of keeping him alive. He has never forgot about her brother.

Number two, we had Cersei's arc in Feast, yet, Martin choose to culminate it here, with the Walk of Shame.

Why?

I think this is the final and absolute confirmation of them both being parallel but now going in different directions.

They both started in Dance being isolated, fearful, alone, both suffering the consequences of their mistakes, trying to be Queens. Dany is starving and eats what Dragon eats. Cersei is fed by others, because she's not completely abandoned. But she's not a Queen to their eyes anymore, she's with people that won't respect her. And Jaime didn't return to save her. Dragon did return. Barristan and the rest of her people is looking for Dany. The people in KL claim for Margaery, not Cersei.

And their minds couldn't be more opposite as well. Dany starts full with regret. Cersei is thinking about getting even and is already planning revenge. Dany sees people that has left her and they talk to her, and she's full with pain and sadness about them. Cersei sees the people she has wrong,ed, but she feels nothing about them. She hasn't changed, we see that in the epilogue.

Dany bonds with Drogon, an instrument of destruction that she surely will use to rebuild. Cersei is given an abomination, an undead monster under the disguised of a holy knight that she will use to destroy her enemies.

Also, they both are now bald. This has a double meaning: 1. They have both lost their golden crowns and 2. They are meant to be reborn, as children are born without hair (mostly of them at least).

But the most important thing here is the nature of their "walk of penance", so to speak.

Dany has won the right to be Queen on her own, unlike Cersei. She not only has her dragons, she has used them to gain an army, and her actions have earned her the respect of her people. People come from everywhere to her because she is a force in the world. She represents power and strength. Yet, pretty much like Cersei, she has taken wrong decisions, due to inexperience. It has nothing to do with her dragons. Because, let's be honest, what wouldn't Cersei give for having a dragon? Dany has them and she has ended up in the same situation: walking semi-naked and bald and stripped from power. Cersei's WoS is one of the most controversial chapters of the books because the subject of sexism and misogyny are always brought. But we have Dany who has also ended up in a similar position despite she's not scolded for her sexual life, she's not thought less for being a woman (kinda) and having a very strong military force. And we also have Jon. This is not because they are women: it's because they couldn't handle their own situations. The three of them.

Yet, Cersei wasn't saved. Cersei was abandoned by everybody. She caused that herself. Dany has been saved by Drogo. They are bonding as one. She will use Drogo to achieve her goals and fate because Drogo is part of her. Cersei has lost what it was part of her, Jaime. She's own her own and that's how GRRM has chosen to leave her in Dance. Dany is facing a khalasar with a Dragon next to her. I think it's very telling how t hey both are ending their plots in the book: one of them is trying to cling into power, a power she doesn't deserve, while Dany has recover her dragon and strength. She's not going mad nor will end up a villain.

Really excellent write up! :bowdown:

Cesei is a foil to Dany, while those who don't know who Dany is will believe she is just like her father The Mad King in the end it's not her who will end up being The Mad Queen.

Like BearQueen87 said, you should post it every time we get the Dany is going to be just like her father mashugana.

I've been tempted to open a thread, but you know how mostly Dany threads end up :dunno:

That's a big problem. I've stopped from starting many a Dany threads because I know I'll get very little productive debate before it defends in chaos. So sad...

[Kyoshi]

Thanks for the excellent analysis, Queen Alyasanne! :bowdown:

• I agree with BearQueen87 that the phases of the day in this chapter are significant. They reminded me of The Three Stages of Dany's Journey and Theon's Sample Chapter in the Winds of Winter.
  
• MoIaF, I like the analysis you made with the grass bowing to Drogon. I'd never thought along those lines.
  

[Nictarion]

Damn, I've been thoroughly impressed with you people all throughout this reread, but you'll have really outdone yourselves with this last chapter. Some truly amazing posts!

[Kyoshi]

More later. I had such a nice long post that I didn't save. :bang:

Key points on which I had touched:

In the chapter where Dany shows Quentyn her dragons she shows that she knows no rider can ride two dragons. Yet in this chapter she leaves Drogon behind because she realises there is more to her life than the beautiful freedom of flying. Drogon is the one who follows her. He chooses her. I find the notion that Drogon will leave her for my beloved Saint Jon Snow ludicrous, especially after this chapter. I don't think it was a coincidence that he comes to her after the Dothraki scout is close to her. It was reminiscent of the Daznak's Pit scene where I think we can agree to some degree that he sensed her mounting unease. He knew. he always knows when she needs him. He came. He always comes. He chose her. Even after she left him he chose her.

This passage was very interesting to me:

The day grew warmer, and the sun beat down upon her head and the burnt remnants of her hair. Water splashed against the soles of her feet. She was walking in the stream. How long had she been doing that? The soft brown mud felt good between her toes and helped to soothe her blisters. In the stream or out of it, I must keep walking. Water flows downhill. The stream will take me to the river, and the river will take me home.

Remember when Barry said when given the chance, fools and young girls always chose fire over mud? I think it is very significant that here Dany realises the soothing and "healing" quality of mud. She has more than one epiphany in the sea, one of them was the need for the more tranquil things, like mud. Also, she was reminded that she is the last dragon...and once again it was by the melting ghost of Viserys (who was actually insistent on the opposite)[Note that there is hauntingly similar scene in AGOT]:

No. You were the betrayer. You turned against me, against your own blood. They cheated me. Your horsey husband and his stinking savages. They were cheats and liars. They promised me a golden crown and gave me this. He touched the molten gold that was creeping down his face, and smoke rose from his finger.

Yet this is what happens when she wakes up from the dream:

“I am the blood of the dragon,” she told the grass, aloud. Once, the grass whispered back, until you chained your dragons in the dark.

I think this little detour was the best thing that could have happened to Dany. She reflected quite a lot.1. Mud is good. 2. Dragosn aren't all that bad and we shouldn't just cage them. 3. Planting trees is cool, but not in Meereen. 4. Fire and Blood isn't as terrible as the cool kids might like you to think.

[BearQueen87]

This passage was very interesting to me:

The day grew warmer, and the sun beat down upon her head and the burnt remnants of her hair. Water splashed against the soles of her feet. She was walking in the stream. How long had she been doing that? The soft brown mud felt good between her toes and helped to soothe her blisters. In the stream or out of it, I must keep walking. Water flows downhill. The stream will take me to the river, and the river will take me home.

Remember when Barry said when given the chance, fools and young girls always chose fire over mud? I think it is very significant that here Dany realises the soothing and "healing" quality of mud. She has more than one epiphany in the sea, one of them was the need for the more tranquil things, like mud.

I have to...don't hate me.

Guess who appears right after her "mud" revelation....

*runs away cackling madly*

[Kyoshi]

I found myself pondering over this line, I wondered if it was just coincidence that she does not want to be the meal of animals that are strongly associated with the Usurper's Dogs: Dany would make a poor meal for a wolf or lion, but even a poor meal was better than none. Also worth noting is that she is wise enough to follow the river home, yet not too close that she might become prey.

The first line of the chapter also stood out to me: The hill was a stony island in a sea of green. As soon as I read it I thought of Dragonstone--the first seat of the Targs who came from Essos to conquer Westeros. This as well: She turned back the way she’d come, to where Dragonstone rose above the grasslands like a clenched fist. [i immediately thought of the Fist of the First Men, especially because the Targs were the first lords there].

This [from this chapter] Off in the distance, a wolf howled. The sound made her feel sad and lonely, but no less hungry. As the moon rose above the grasslands, Dany slipped at last into a restless sleep...was hauntingly similar to this [from a chapter in AGOT]: The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness. She began to run. I wonder if it is some kind of foreshadowing that she will sympathise with direwolves [starks]. Their howling sure seems to to touch something in her. It could just be coincidental writing, but I can't help but wonder.

[MoIaF]

Damn, I've been thoroughly impressed with you people all throughout this reread, but you'll have really outdone yourselves with this last chapter. Some truly amazing posts!

Thank you very much! Everyone has been great. :cheers:

More later. I had such a nice long post that I didn't save. :bang:

...and this is why I type all my long post on a Word document first. You live, you learn. :D

This passage was very interesting to me:

The day grew warmer, and the sun beat down upon her head and the burnt remnants of her hair. Water splashed against the soles of her feet. She was walking in the stream. How long had she been doing that? The soft brown mud felt good between her toes and helped to soothe her blisters. In the stream or out of it, I must keep walking. Water flows downhill. The stream will take me to the river, and the river will take me home.

Remember when Barry said when given the chance, fools and young girls always chose fire over mud? I think it is very significant that here Dany realises the soothing and "healing" quality of mud. She has more than one epiphany in the sea, one of them was the need for the more tranquil things, like mud. Also, she was reminded that she is the last dragon...and once again it was by the melting ghost of Viserys (who was actually insistent on the opposite)[Note that there is hauntingly similar scene in AGOT]:

Very nice pickup. Perhaps as we have been discussing she has learned from her time in Meereen. She knew to use the mud to help sooth her blisters and knew when to call Drogon to hunt. It's all about balance.

I have to...don't hate me.

Guess who appears right after her "mud" revelation....

*runs away cackling madly*

You just couldn't help yourself, could you? ;)

This [from this chapter] Off in the distance, a wolf howled. The sound made her feel sad and lonely, but no less hungry. As the moon rose above the grasslands, Dany slipped at last into a restless sleep...was hauntingly similar to this [from a chapter in AGOT]: The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness. She began to run. I wonder if it is some kind of foreshadowing that she will sympathise with direwolves [starks]. Their howling sure seems to to touch something in her. It could just be coincidental writing, but I can't help but wonder.

We see a very similar line in one of Cat's chapters she describes the owing of the direwolves very much the same way.

In Dany's fevered dram in AGOT she is running away from this and from this she begins to say "if I look back I'm lost". Now, she's ready to look back and face it, whatever that may be.

[Stannis's Lawyer]

So it's over?

:bowdown: :bowdown: to everyone who did this.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Thank you! It's been a joy doing this re-read with all of you :)

​I think there are a few elements to consider here about these to consider here about these two scenes. First she forgets a child who is very important to her, next she looses a child, a real one, finally she chooses her dragons over these children (inadvertently for the most part).

Twice she has chosen to be the Mother of Dragons over being a mother. Now, this might be a bit far etched but as Dany story goes in threes I believe that the next time Dany will chose an actual child (or her people/children) over her dragons.

Very interesting take on this, very apt. It's not the dragons way to in effect give everything you worked for away in order to "achieve" peace because in the end your just delaying what would sorely be the return to slavery in Slavery's Bay.

Staying in Meereen and planting trees was not the right course of action for what she was looking to achieve.

So, the other day on another thread we were discussing the bowing grass and I also connected it to Drogon...and the Valryan sphinx.

Hear me out:

"The next evening they came upon a huge Valyrian sphinx crouched beside the road. It had a dragons body and a womans face. A dragon queen, said Tyrion. A pleasant omen. Her king is missing. Illyrio pointed out the smooth stone plinth on which the second sphinx once stood, now grown over with moss and flowering vines. The horselords built wooden wheels beneath him and dragged him back to Vaes Dothrak.

The grass bowing to Dany's right where a king would stand and the bowing down to Drogon (a king amongst dragons) shows us what Dany has been missing. During Tyrion's travels he saw one half of a couple of Valyrian sphinxes, the king missing taken to Vaes Dothrak. Dany's true king has been missing, he has fled tot he Dothraki sea.

After the events in Daznea's Pit and the flight the matching pair of Valyrian sphinxes king and queen are reunited in the Dothraki sea. This also might correspond to the matching pair of rider and dragon or as represented by the Valyrian sphinx half person and half dragon. As Dany thought during her flight, on dragon's back she felt whole. A Valyrian sphinx half woman and half dragon.

Dany's king, her black dragon. Love it!

Other Thoughts

"She had no memories of that Dragonstone, but she would not soon forget this one."

Knowing what we do from the end of the chapter we know that this will be the point where Dany will start again, where she decides that "to go forward, I must go back". Much like the original Dragonstone its the beginning of a Targaryen conquest.

----

"Dany knew the lure of home."

The two main themes in Danys arc are home and identity. We see her struggle with both throughout her arc in ADWD. In her first chapter in AGOT we see her reminiscing about a home she never knew or remembered. Here we see how important the idea of home truly is to Dany. It's almost an unobtainable for her, a lure.

----

Her home was back in Meereen, with her husband and her lover. That was where she belonged, surely. Keep walking. If I look back I am lost ."

No, Dany told herself. If I look back I am lost. She might live for years amongst the sunbaked rocks of Dragonstone, riding Drogon by day and gnawing at his leavings every evenfall as the great grass sea turned from gold to orange, but that was not the life she had been born to. So once again she turned her back upon the distant hill and closed her ears to the song of flight and freedom that the wind sang as it played amongst the hills stony ridges.

Twice in the chapter Dany tells herself what has been her motto for the last four books. She began telling herself this motto after her fevered dream, where she saw herself running in order to get away from the cold (death). It also probably relates to the events leading up to that point, the fall of her husband and the death of her child. She used that motto to propel herself forward, its kind of a description of forward momentum.

She couldnt sit down an consider everything that happened, there was no time to stop, she needed to hatch her dragons to protect herself and her people, she needed to get out of the Dothraki sea and lead her people through the Red Waste, she needed to free the slaves, she needed to continue forward releasing the other slaves, she needed to go forward and find supplies for her people. And once in Meereen the events there just lead her forward, she was just going. And all the going just lead to her failings in Meereen.

Finally towards the end of the chapter Dany says to herself:

Drogon came, snorting plumes of smoke. The grass bowed down before him. Dany leapt onto his back. She stank of blood and sweat and fear , but none of that mattered. To go forward I must go back, she said. Her bare legs tightened around the dragons neck. She kicked him, and Drogon threw himself into the sky.

After all that forward momentum, after just going and going, she realizes that she has to go back to where she started. She got lost somewhere along the way and now she must correct her path. Perhaps fix what went wrong and perhaps correct her mistakes (missteps).

I also consider what the Dothraki are in the food chain of slaver, they are at the very top (bottom?) they are the ones who enslaves and then sell the people to the slavers. If she wants to truly abolish slavery in Essos she needs to start with them. Not saying this will be easy or simple or that even most Dothraki would be on board with it but it can be a start.

----

Dany IX AGOT

The last dragon, Ser Jorahs voice whispered faintly. The last, the last. Dany lifted his polished black visor. The face within was her own. After that, for a long time, there was only the pain, the fire within her , and the whisperings of stars. She woke to the taste of ashes.

Dany X ADWD

"She dreamed. All her cares fell away from her, and all her pains as well, and she seemed to float upward into the sky. She was flying once again, spinning, laughing, dancing, as the stars wheeled around her and whispered secrets in her ear. To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward, you must go back. To touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow."

Remember who you are, Daenerys, the stars whispered in a womans voice. The dragons know. Do you?

Quaithe has been following Dany for a long time. I wonder how much of her dragon dreams she has influenced (if any).

-----
From the beginning of the chapter:

It was time, though. A girl might spend her life at play, but she was a woman grown, a queen, a wife, a mother to thousands.

From the end of the chapter:

"It is such a long way, she complained. I was tired, Jorah. I was weary of war. I wanted to rest, to laugh, to plant trees and see them grow. I am only a young girl."

Which is it? Are you a woman grown or a young girl or both.

Random Notes:

"From below a spear came flying, followed by a flight of crossbow bolts. One passed so close that Dany felt it brush her cheek."

They were shooting a Drogon while Dany was riding him, couldn't they have killed her?
___

It was quiet on her sea. When the wind blew the grass would sigh as the stalks brushed against each other, whispering in a tongue that only gods could understand.

Interesting, she calls it her sea.
___

Once I dreamed of flying , she thought, and now Ive flown, and dream of stealing eggs . That made her laugh. Men are mad and gods are madder, she told the grass, and the grass murmured its agreement.

Her agnostic leaning are showing.
___

Dany IX AGOT

"Mirri Maz Duur was there, the maegi, tipping a cup against her lips. She tasted sour milk, and something else, something thick and bitter."

Dany X ADWD

"Its flesh was tart and chewy, with a bitter aftertaste that seemed familiar to her."

Could it be that MMD fed Dany an abortifacient.

-------

When Dany is coming down from Dragonstone 2.0 she observes that her hands are healing although there are blistery and pussy. Now, I'd like to discuss the fact that her hands only blistered (and are now healing) after removing a molting metal rod from Drogon's back. I'm not really an expert on these things but it seems to me that touching the rod should have melted her skin right off or at least tore her epidermis. I don't want to turn this into yet another Targaryen's aren't fire proof discussion (they arent). I just want to acknowledge that either Dany has an unusually high heat resistant or GRRM didn't really consider the science of the scene.

ETA: To add one more randomr though. :D

Wow great catch on the drink MMD gave, so prhaps Dany coming into the tent was the chance she had to kill the child and possibly used the drink.

I think that would be a very likely bittersweet and it would fit with what GRRM said, for Dany to sacrifice being the mother of dragons in order to have a child.

In terms of Dany's burnt hands, I agree it does seem weird the there wasn't more damage considering Iron has a very high melting point, I think someone suggested in another thread that it's possible dragons when in close proximity to their rider can cause some sort of healing (Similar to Dany in AGOT and Aenys) perhaps that's where the whole "blood of the dragon" does not get sick comes from, so Drogon might be involved here.

Or perhaps as you said GRRM didn't think of the science behind it, though considering he's a sci-fi writer I would think he should so there might be something more going on here.

snip

That's a very interesting way of interpreting the visions, using the maid, crone, and mother. It actually fits very well especially since there is a crescent moon when Dany wakes which is a connection to the symbol of the crone.

I agree that Jorah means a lot to Dany, especially since she added him to her list of family members at the end of ASOS, I think he is the closest thing to a friend. On whether the relationship will develop further than that I guess as you said we'll wait until WoW

I think the next time Jorah sees Dany she'll be a more grown woman, then when he was last with her.

First, Viserys' "cameo" here breaks my heart. Even though he played the role of the abuser here, he was as much as a victim as Dany. He was only 8 when the Rebelion happened and considering his mother kept him away from his father's crazyness, he probably never actually knew the truth of it, hence, the "lies" he told Dany. Yet, he protected her and got her safe. His final plea is heartbreaking. At least, it is too me. And Dany still feels guilty about it. Not only he names one of his dragons after him, but he does as a way of keeping him alive. He has never forgot about her brother.

Number two, we had Cersei's arc in Feast, yet, Martin choose to culminate it here, with the Walk of Shame.

Why?

I think this is the final and absolute confirmation of them both being parallel but now going in different directions.

They both started in Dance being isolated, fearful, alone, both suffering the consequences of their mistakes, trying to be Queens. Dany is starving and eats what Dragon eats. Cersei is fed by others, because she's not completely abandoned. But she's not a Queen to their eyes anymore, she's with people that won't respect her. And Jaime didn't return to save her. Dragon did return. Barristan and the rest of her people is looking for Dany. The people in KL claim for Margaery, not Cersei.

And their minds couldn't be more opposite as well. Dany starts full with regret. Cersei is thinking about getting even and is already planning revenge. Dany sees people that has left her and they talk to her, and she's full with pain and sadness about them. Cersei sees the people she has wrong,ed, but she feels nothing about them. She hasn't changed, we see that in the epilogue.

Dany bonds with Drogon, an instrument of destruction that she surely will use to rebuild. Cersei is given an abomination, an undead monster under the disguised of a holy knight that she will use to destroy her enemies.

Also, they both are now bald. This has a double meaning: 1. They have both lost their golden crowns and 2. They are meant to be reborn, as children are born without hair (mostly of them at least).

But the most important thing here is the nature of their "walk of penance", so to speak.

Dany has won the right to be Queen on her own, unlike Cersei. She not only has her dragons, she has used them to gain an army, and her actions have earned her the respect of her people. People come from everywhere to her because she is a force in the world. She represents power and strength. Yet, pretty much like Cersei, she has taken wrong decisions, due to inexperience. It has nothing to do with her dragons. Because, let's be honest, what wouldn't Cersei give for having a dragon? Dany has them and she has ended up in the same situation: walking semi-naked and bald and stripped from power. Cersei's WoS is one of the most controversial chapters of the books because the subject of sexism and misogyny are always brought. But we have Dany who has also ended up in a similar position despite she's not scolded for her sexual life, she's not thought less for being a woman (kinda) and having a very strong military force. And we also have Jon. This is not because they are women: it's because they couldn't handle their own situations. The three of them.

Yet, Cersei wasn't saved. Cersei was abandoned by everybody. She caused that herself. Dany has been saved by Drogo. They are bonding as one. She will use Drogo to achieve her goals and fate because Drogo is part of her. Cersei has lost what it was part of her, Jaime. She's own her own and that's how GRRM has chosen to leave her in Dance. Dany is facing a khalasar with a Dragon next to her. I think it's very telling how t hey both are ending their plots in the book: one of them is trying to cling into power, a power she doesn't deserve, while Dany has recover her dragon and strength. She's not going mad nor will end up a villain.

Very great comparison between Dany and Cersei :bowdown:

I also don't believe Dany will ever be villain, as SeanF stated earlier in the re-read if Dany was being setup to be a Villain she would have sacrificed one of her maidens to obtain dragons, and even at the end of this chapter it would have ended with her burning Jhaqo.

I found myself pondering over this line, I wondered if it was just coincidence that she does not want to be the meal of animals that are strongly associated with the Usurper's Dogs: Dany would make a poor meal for a wolf or lion, but even a poor meal was better than none. Also worth noting is that she is wise enough to follow the river home, yet not too close that she might become prey.

The first line of the chapter also stood out to me: The hill was a stony island in a sea of green. As soon as I read it I thought of Dragonstone--the first seat of the Targs who came from Essos to conquer Westeros. This as well: She turned back the way she’d come, to where Dragonstone rose above the grasslands like a clenched fist. [i immediately thought of the Fist of the First Men, especially because the Targs were the first lords there].

This [from this chapter] Off in the distance, a wolf howled. The sound made her feel sad and lonely, but no less hungry. As the moon rose above the grasslands, Dany slipped at last into a restless sleep...was hauntingly similar to this [from a chapter in AGOT]: The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness. She began to run. I wonder if it is some kind of foreshadowing that she will sympathise with direwolves [starks]. Their howling sure seems to to touch something in her. It could just be coincidental writing, but I can't help but wonder.

That was really well put

And yea, I think she is going to sympathize with them I don't see her burning the Usurper dogs pups as some people seem to suggest.

So it's over?

:bowdown: :bowdown: to everyone who did this.

Thanks :D

[SeanF]

Many thanks, Queen Alysane. I'm just back from holiday, so I'll post my thoughts tomorrow?

But briefly, what do we think of "A dragon plants no trees" and "Fire and Blood"? Will Dany become a female Genghis Khan, in the next book, if we allow for the fact that in reality, Genghis Khan was both a very creative, as well as a very destructive, ruler?

[BearQueen87]

Many thanks, Queen Alysane. I'm just back from holiday, so I'll post my thoughts tomorrow?

But briefly, what do we think of "A dragon plants no trees" and "Fire and Blood"? Will Dany become a female Genghis Khan, in the next book, if we allow for the fact that in reality, Genghis Khan was both a very creative, as well as a very destructive, ruler?

I think, briefly, that yes Dany is about to unleash a lot of fire on Slaver's Bay. But I don't think that's a bad thing. The problem with planting trees is that the soil (Slaver's Bay) is vile and corrupt. The soil was never going to allow for trees (peace) to grow as it stands. If you want real rebirth and change, then you have to do away with the old. And that's what Dany is about to do. Several of us mentioned that Fire and Blood is not just war and death and destruction. It's also life and renewal. Dany is all of these things.

Also, I'm really curious what some people are predicting overall for Dany in WOW