Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 Your conclusion doesn't really follow from your quotes. Illyrio is not speaking precisely, it seems to me; he says in one breath that his first wife was the Prince's daughter, in another that she was his cousin, indicating that his memory is likely somewhat faulty. And the way he talks about the timing, his first marriage and Varys' arrival in KL need not have happened at the exact same time, and it seems to me that a gap as large as several years between the two events isn't out of the question. Also, it's hardly unheard of for women to die giving birth to their first child, so his marriage to the Prince's kinswoman may indeed have been short. Real Aegon was born in 282; Fake Aegon need not be the exact same age, he could be a couple years younger and still pass inspection once fully grown. So I don't think this theory has been "smashed to pieces" at all. No, he doesn't. Reread the passage again. First, he calls her the daughter of a cousin of the Prince of Pentos, later, he calls her a cousin of the Prince of Pentos. The daughter of a cousin, counts as a cousin ;) Aegon Targaryen (son of Rhaegar), was born either in the last few weeks of 281AC, or in the first few weeks of 282AC.. GRRM remains vague about that... The Aegon we see as Young Griff didn't just need to pass an inspection once fully grown, btw. He needed to pass an inspected when he was 5 (or at least, when Rhaegar's son was 5). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Weirwoods Eyes Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 Can someone clarify for me, I thought for some reason, and forgive me as I haven't re read it for a while, but I was under the impression that illyrio set his first wife aside for Serra? am I wrong? where does it tell us she died? I know Serra died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 Can someone clarify for me, I thought for some reason, and forgive me as I haven't re read it for a while, but I was under the impression that illyrio set his first wife aside for Serra? am I wrong? where does it tell us she died? I know Serra died. The first wife done died too. IIRC they did not mention what she died of, just that she died. Serra died of a plague carried by rats on a trading ship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Weirwoods Eyes Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 yea I remember Serra dying of greyscale, but i honestly had thought he set his first wife aside for her. hence the pentoshi dude being pissed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bent branch Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 yea I remember Serra dying of greyscale, but i honestly had thought he set his first wife aside for her. hence the pentoshi dude being pissed. In Chapter 5 of ADWD, Illyrio says this: "A maiden? I know the way of that." Illyrio thrust his right hand up his left sleeve and drew out a silver locket. Inside was a painted likeness of a woman with big blue eyes and pale golden hair streaked by silver. "Serra. I found her in a Lysene pillow house and brought her home to warm my bed, but in the end I wed her. Me, whose first wife had been a cousin of the Prince of Pentos. The palace gates were closed to me thereafter, but I did not care. The price was small enough for Serra." The order of events as specified in this section of text, Illyrio's first wife died and then he found Serra in a Lysene pillow house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 First wife had been clearly indicates that the marriage was over 1 way or the other prior to his meeting Serra. Whether or not divorce is an option in Pentos could potentially be debated, but I highly doubt it, divorce would be an entirely knew concept for ASOIAF, so I think we can safely say she died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 If Illyrio had divorced his first wife (or, the Westerosi/Essosi variant of it, like Larra Rogare and Mellario of Norvos did), the doors to the palace of Pentos would have been close waaaaaay sooner to him.. Not just after marrying Serra.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 It smashed my theory that Aegon II made the law, as it smashed others theory Aegon III. There was never actually a law. But it did prove that Baela did marry Alyn! So still winning! Oh and Rhaegar wasn't completely idiotic pre Lyanna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowisnobastard Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 Hell I'm just glad that the existence of ice dragons was delved into a bit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hangover of the Morning Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 In TWOIAF, we are told that Varys arrived in KL sometime between Steffon Baratheon's death and the tourney at Harrenhal. So this means Illyrio was married to his first wife sometime around 279 or 280 AC. So this is 20 to 21 years before the present. Giving the most generous timeline possible, this means Illyrio married his first, she died, Illyrio found Serra and Serra was pregnant with Aegon in about a three year span. This would have made Illyrio's first marriage incredibly short and he doesn't indicate that was the situation. I don't think the timeline allows for Serra to be Aegon's mother. If Illyrio is Aegon's father it is either with the Pentoshi princess or a concubine or mistress. Since I think the Pentoshi princess' family would notice if her child went missing, it would have to be the latter choices. Actually, I don't think Illyrio is Aegon's father, but there is still a possibility for that. Serra, however, is not possible as Aegon's mother, imo. I am not saying that Serra is certainly Aegon's mum but I wouldn't say WOIAF smashed the theory into pieces. I didn't get the impression from Illyrio's quote that his first marriage and Varys' relocation to King's Landing happened exactly the same year. He's speaking vaguely about the era when he got renowned in Pentos. But even if true, it doesn't make Aegon's birth impossible, just makes the sudden death of his first wife so soon after their marriage a bit odd. And IIRC, Tyrion thinks that Aegon looks younger than 18. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bent branch Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 I am not saying that Serra is certainly Aegon's mum but I wouldn't say WOIAF smashed the theory into pieces. I didn't get the impression from Illyrio's quote that his first marriage and Varys' relocation to King's Landing happened exactly the same year. He's speaking vaguely about the era when he got renowned in Pentos. But even if true, it doesn't make Aegon's birth impossible, just makes the sudden death of his first wife so soon after their marriage a bit odd. And IIRC, Tyrion thinks that Aegon looks younger than 18. Here is the sentence, ""I grew so respectable that a cousin of the Prince of Pentos let me wed his maiden daughter, whilst whispers of a certain eunuch's talents crossed the narrow sea and reached the ears of a certain king." The word whilst is a subordinating conjunction. This means these two events are connected in time. When did the whispers reach Aerys? When Illyrio married his first wife. I am confident that GRRM intentionally connected these two events. No, it doesn't make it impossible, just extremely improbable that Serra is Aegon's mother. It is so improbable that I won't believe it until/if it is explained in the books. Further, I have accounted for a younger fake in my estimate of three years. If a fake Aegon was one year younger than the Real Aegon and Illyrio married his first wife in 279AC, then there is potentially three years for Illyrio's first wife to have died and Illyrio to meet, marry and impregnate Serra. However, if Illyrio married his first wife in 280AC and the fake Aegon is the same age as the real Aegon than there is only one year for these events to have happened. Really, the death of Illyrio's first wife would have to be explained for Serra to have any possibility of being Aegon's mother, imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long Lost Lion Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 I apologise I haven't read all the arguments but if Aegon was a child of Illyrio and Serra, couldn't he be a bastard, conceived whilst the first wife was still alive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hangover of the Morning Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 I apologise I haven't read all the arguments but if Aegon was a child of Illyrio and Serra, couldn't he be a bastard, conceived whilst the first wife was still alive? Or he could just be Serra's child, i.e. Illyrio married her and took the kid under his wing. I doubt that though. There was a reason why George showed as the statue of young Illyrio. Serra and Illyrio could still be Aegon's parents: first wife could have died whilst giving birth or from a complicated pregnancy, so within a year or two, Illyrio could have been married again. I somewhat subscribe to the Serra/Blackfyre theory and I don't think that the above mentioned quote has debunked it. The biggest problem is that we have zero textual evidence. We only know that she was blonde (not uncommon in Lys), that Illyrio found her in a brothel and that he loved her very much. We also know that a child lived in Illyrio's mansion at some time and that the cheesemonger is quite fond of Aegon. So, it's quite a stretch to extrapolate that Serra was a Blackfyre but it's not completely disillusioned to entertain the idea that Aegon might be Illyrio's son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rozemarijn Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 I somewhat subscribe to the Serra/Blackfyre theory and I don't think that the above mentioned quote has debunked it. The biggest problem is that we have zero textual evidence. We only know that she was blonde (not uncommon in Lys), that Illyrio found her in a brothel and that he loved her very much. We also know that a child lived in Illyrio's mansion at some time and that the cheesemonger is quite fond of Aegon. So, it's quite a stretch to extrapolate that Serra was a Blackfyre but it's not completely disillusioned to entertain the idea that Aegon might be Illyrio's son. We also know he was attracted by Dany, which could mean she reminds him of Serra. Aka family features. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 We also know he was attracted by Dany, which could mean she reminds him of Serra. Aka family features. That just means that she looked at least a bit Valyrian.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rozemarijn Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 That just means that she looked at least a bit Valyrian..Well, so does Aegon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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