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Elessar

Casually smashing a theory to pieces....

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And Tywin only had suspicions--he could not "prove" that Tyrion was not his son. .

To be fair, whether Tyrion is his or not, Tywin likely had as much or more "proof" as Ned had re: the bastardy of Cersei's children, minus Cersei's confession. Tywin was a cerebral and methodical character, he would have researched his suspicions, and even if he had no bastards himself, he would have compared Tyrion's features to those of the children of his and Joanna's siblings. And to those of Targaryens whom he and Pycelle have seen, including all those babies of Aerys's who were stillborn and died early. Heck, he may have consulted the very same book that Jon Arryn and Ned did!

And, of course, he would have never gone public with any of it anyway, as it would have irrevocably tarnished both his and Joanna's reputation.

As readers we have to believe that it's a matter of absolute importance that Joff and Tommen are not Robert's trueborn sons for example.

If we don't agree with that basic premise then LF looks like the more sensible guy (let Joff become King with Ned as Regent) and Ned looks like the guy who deliberately started the Wo5K.

I am not sure that we are supposed to think that it was all so cut-and-dry, to be honest. If Joff had been a good kid, I personally would have condemned Ned for his decision. As it was, it was clear that things would have been bad no matter what Ned chose to do. But would he have done it if he had liked Joff, if he wasn't convinced that the Lannisters tried to murder Bran? Maybe, maybe not.

Frankly, I have always thought that it would have made for a better story, that ambiguity. Ditto, if there had been some evidence that Robert _could_ father children which were not black-haired. After all, early in her marriage, Cersei did have to sleep with Robert "once a fortnight", and he wasn't so far gone as to not notice that they didn't ever engage in penetrative intercourse. She really shouldn't have known for sure who Joff's father was.

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With all of those kids of Aerys's being born with deformities, the theory about Tyrion being Aerys's as well gained some steam in my opinion. Plus all the comments about how Aerys was quite the ladies' man, especially with his wife's companions. Jaime, Cersei, and Tyrion could all have been Aerys's.

Forgive me if I'm wrong (and I could be) but weren't all of the Targaryen's deformed babies stillborn? None of them lived, so why would Tyrion be the exception. Also I for one would not say Tyrion is deformed as much as he is a dwarf, which we know also exist in Westeros (we've been introduced to two or three). It's very possible that dwarfism exists in many family lines. Just because its never been present with the Lannisters, does not mean it could never happen.

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Forgive me if I'm wrong (and I could be) but weren't all of the Targaryen's deformed babies stillborn? None of them lived, so why would Tyrion be the exception. Also I for one would not say Tyrion is deformed as much as he is a dwarf, which we know also exist in Westeros (we've been introduced to two or three). It's very possible that dwarfism exists in many family lines. Just because its never been present with the Lannisters, does not mean it could never happen.

Maelys.

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Another "theory" that has been blown away.. and really, it didn't have much to stand on anyway... is the theory that the Lannisters really are out of gold and that the show spoiled a future occurrence.


Safe to say that one is bullshit.


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Another "theory" that has been blown away.. and really, it didn't have much to stand on anyway... is the theory that the Lannisters really are out of gold and that the show spoiled a future occurrence.

Safe to say that one is bullshit.

Wow--that is a great find--please clarify what evidence you are taking to mean this (not that I am questioning validity--I really want to hear the evidence explained).

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I don't have the book with me at work, but I recall reading several passages about deep, rich veins of gold within or around Casterly Rock that are still untapped, even after thousands of years.


Anyone with a book in hand that can give me a quote?


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I don't have the book with me at work, but I recall reading several passages about deep, rich veins of gold within or around Casterly Rock that are still untapped, even after thousands of years.

Anyone with a book in hand that can give me a quote?

And a maester with a heavy lannister bias who's whitewashed big anti-lannister pieces of information that we know to have gone differently; using uncited references to potential sources of further gold is proof?

Not that I think that to be the case, but that's not the type of thing this maester would put into this history if even cersei had no idea.

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It is in House Lannister Under the Dragons, sub chapter Casterly Rock.



Hundreds of Mineshafts penetrate the lower parts of the Rock, where many veins of red and yellow gold gleam untouched in the stone even after millenia of mining.




I would give a page number but I have my iPad eBook with me and the numbers don't line up due to text size, rotation, etc.


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And a maester with a heavy lannister bias who's whitewashed big anti-lannister pieces of information that we know to have gone differently; using uncited references to potential sources of further gold is proof?

Not that I think that to be the case, but that's not the type of thing this maester would put into this history if even cersei had no idea.

Yes

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And a maester with a heavy lannister bias who's whitewashed big anti-lannister pieces of information that we know to have gone differently; using uncited references to potential sources of further gold is proof?

Not that I think that to be the case, but that's not the type of thing this maester would put into this history if even cersei had no idea.

Well, personally I always thought the show reveal on this point was suspect. I don't see how the Lannisters could keep this information secret for very long. At some point reality would catch up and they simply would not have enough gold to do whatever they were continuing to do. So I tend to think that this information in WoIaF is correct, but I agree that it is possible that it is a cover up or just information that has been told to the maesters by Tywin and they don't even know it is a lie.

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I see it's back to Tyrion. I have not read all the posts but I thought the theory that got smashed was Dragon eggs at Winterfell. I don't know if it could be considered a major theory but there was fighting going on over that.

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I see it's back to Tyrion. I have not read all the posts but I thought the theory that got smashed was Dragon eggs at Winterfell. I don't know if it could be considered a major theory but there was fighting going on over that.

Everything revolves around Tyrion & Arya...then Jon...then Daenerys...at least in my hierarchy.

But as with all threads...it is a roller coaster of topics

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Well, personally I always thought the show reveal on this point was suspect. I don't see how the Lannisters could keep this information secret for very long. At some point reality would catch up and they simply would not have enough gold to do whatever they were continuing to do. So I tend to think that this information in WoIaF is correct, but I agree that it is possible that it is a cover up or just information that has been told to the maesters by Tywin and they don't even know it is a lie.

Oh I'm with you on not buying it myself for those very same reasons about how unplausible covering something of that scale up would be. But if a person is calling for that massive of a cover up, it's not something a maester would casually blow in his official history that he's writing for house Lanninster; one in which he's already whitewashed Tywin's hand in the deaths of Elia and her child(ren?), that we clearly know about.

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I see it's back to Tyrion. I have not read all the posts but I thought the theory that got smashed was Dragon eggs at Winterfell. I don't know if it could be considered a major theory but there was fighting going on over that.

It has been confirmed that the theory that was originally referenced as being "casually smashed" by WoIaF is A+J=C+J because the books suggests that Joanna left KL about 3 years before the birth of the twins and "seldom returned" giving little opportunity to have been there at the time of the twins' conception. Of course, seldom is not the same as never, and KL is not the only place to meet, so in retrospect, it was acknowledged that the theory was not quite as smashed as originally considered. But it is has been confirmed by Ran that the original reference by him to casually smashing a theory was a reference by him to A+J=C+J (although Ran admits that GRRM added fuel to the A+J=T theory).

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I think it's enough to squash the theory.

Mining ore and purifying the gold is an arduous process. It may be that Lord Tywin was forced to exhaust the Lannisters' stock of refined gold, and must now wait for the mines to produce more.

Or alternately, it may be that Yandel has his facts wrong. Just as the Dornish pretend to be more numerous than they really are, the Lannisters may pretend to be richer than they really are. If the productivity of his mines were dropping, Tywin would not have made that knowledge public. We also see a fair amount of stingy behavior on his part that is not consistent with a man sitting on an inexhaustible supply of gold, such as his insistence on the repayment of all loans, including those owed by the crown, and he never pays for anything if he can get it for free. This leads me to think that he is, at least in part, maintaining an illusion for the sake of enhancing the perception of Lannister power.

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Robb's forces have captured gold from some of the mines during their raid in the Westerlands. Not Casterly Rock mines, but it is 100% clear that gold is still being mined in the West. The show conceit is patently false.

Re: Tywin being stingy, he had floated a massive loan to the crown already, wars are an expenisve business and winter was coming. Also, his experiences with paying Aerys's debts to the Iron Bank likely had soured Tywin on the concept. It appears that afterwards Aerys seemed to expect free financial aid as his due and was rather annoyed at not getting it.

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