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Elessar

Casually smashing a theory to pieces....

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The theory that most jumped out at me as being "smashed to pieces" was the idea that Ned's notions of honor were not normal for House Stark but had been picked up from Jon Arryn. The actions of Cregan Stark in the "Hour of the Wolf" as described in the section on Aegon III put that one to bed for good and all. Clearly Ned's ideas about what honor means are solidly derived from centuries of Stark family tradition.

Well, Cregan Stark did come south basically for plunder, not particularly honorable.

By the way, I could not help but laugh at Cregan's role in the Dance of Dragons. :lol:

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I suspect that Dany will know this particular tidbit about dragon blood, because she is a proud Targaryen and aware of her heritage. And that Targaryen = dragons has been deeply ingrained in her. "I am the blood of the dragon",

Who would have taught her? Viserys was a child himself when he became the oldest living Targ.

"I am the blood of the dragon" are empty words. It's Dany's justification for doing what she is doing. It's like "by the Grace of God" but for her there are no deeper meanings in it than the Stark children see in "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell".

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Everyone knows Targaryens ride dragons. That didn't accidentally find its way into the text.

Yet we see many people with no Targ blood trying to tame dragons. Even if you say that they did not know the public knowledge, Rhaenyra certainly knew if Targ blood is necessary to ride a dragon or not. Yet she allowed Steffon Darklyn and Gormon Massey to try to mount dragons whch they could not survive.

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Everyone knows Targaryens ride dragons.

Everyone knows Targaryens and other Valyrians were able to ride dragons. Nobody knows why.

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The theory that most jumped out at me as being "smashed to pieces" was the idea that Ned's notions of honor were not normal for House Stark but had been picked up from Jon Arryn. The actions of Cregan Stark in the "Hour of the Wolf" as described in the section on Aegon III put that one to bed for good and all. Clearly Ned's ideas about what honor means are solidly derived from centuries of Stark family tradition.

Umm, no. Nothing Cregan did was honourable. He cam down to plunder, and started to execute people because of "justice" because he missed the plunder. Then he agreed to stop when he got a hot wife.

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Everyone knows Targaryens ride dragons. That didn't accidentally find its way into the text.

The Dance With Dragons proved otherwise. Also, to be correct, shouldn't it be those of Valyrian ancestry are more associated with the riding of dragons? It's not just Targaryens. There is some kind of affinity that those of Valyrian blood have with dragons which gives rise to the saying about dragons blood running through veins.

I've had this thought that it is the dragon that really chooses its rider. Valyrians, particularly Targaryens, help this along by planting the seed for a link at birth. The child grows up knowing the dragon as it grows up, and vice versa. A dragon is more likely to accept whoever its grown up with as its rider. There have been exceptions, like a dragon biting a young child. Those are far less than those that prove successful riders and dragons.

That seems to be where the 'myth of a dragon-rider' has its origins. Whoever is most associated with dragons gets the attention, and the myth becomes an uncontested fact in time.

How do non-valyrian riders get seen? It'd be waved off, like a 2nd blue moon. It's a freak of nature. They've used sorcery.

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Umm, no. Nothing Cregan did was honourable. He cam down to plunder, and started to execute people because of "justice" because he missed the plunder. Then he agreed to stop when he got a hot wife.

It sounds like you haven't even read the book, because that bears no resemblance to what it says. In the name of Aegon III, Cregan had twenty-two men arrested in connection with the betrayal and poisoning murder of Aegon II. He held trials, and all except two chose to take the black. Gyles Belgrave and Larys Strong chose death, and Cegan carried the executions out himself, as the Starks do to those they pass judgement on. He didn't just start executing people, and had those two chosen the Wall nobody would have been executed.

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The Dance With Dragons proved otherwise. Also, to be correct, shouldn't it be those of Valyrian ancestry are more associated with the riding of dragons? It's not just Targaryens. There is some kind of affinity that those of Valyrian blood have with dragons which gives rise to the saying about dragons blood running through veins.

I've had this thought that it is the dragon that really chooses its rider. Valyrians, particularly Targaryens, help this along by planting the seed for a link at birth. The child grows up knowing the dragon as it grows up, and vice versa. A dragon is more likely to accept whoever its grown up with as its rider. There have been exceptions, like a dragon biting a young child. Those are far less than those that prove successful riders and dragons.

That seems to be where the 'myth of a dragon-rider' has its origins. Whoever is most associated with dragons gets the attention, and the myth becomes an uncontested fact in time.

How do non-valyrian riders get seen? It'd be waved off, like a 2nd blue moon. It's a freak of nature. They've used sorcery.

I think you are mistaken on a few matters. First, the Dance of Dragons 1.0 does not prove that Targ blood is not required to ride a dragon. There were suspicions about Nettles, but WoIaF confirms that she was a dragonseed. Also, no it is not sufficient to have Valyrian blood to ride a dragon. There were certain dragonlord houses in Valyria prior to the Doom (I think 40 houses). Presumably, these were the houses that participated in whatever "blood magic" was necessary to bind the dragons to their "blood." My suspicion is that the instability of the Fourteen Flames is the cost of this blood magic, and the mages had to constantly work to stabilize them--and once enough were killed--BOOM--I mean DOOM. But after the Doom, the Targs were the only dragonlord family to survive (other dragonlords survived briefly but flew to Valyria to take it back and were never seen again). Since the Doom, the only people who have ever been known to ride a dragon is someone with Targ blood. The fact that no other Valyrian family has ridden a dragon is a huge clue that no one can ride a dragon without Targ blood (or a new blood magic ritual--which seems unlikely).

And the dragon that liked BBP liked him apparently for his Targ blood, even though BBP was not even sure he had Targ blood (although we know from the family tree that he does). There simply are no known instances of non-Targ dragon riders, so it is not "waved off" but rather it has not happened (since the Doom).

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1. No, Barristan doesn't know (or at least, hasn't shown us that he knows) about any affair between Joanna and Aerys. All that Barristan has shown to know, so far, is that he is aware that Aerys lusted for her, and behaved inappropriate during the bedding. There's no hint, in his thougts or speech, about an actual sexually active relationship, whether consentual or not.

2. This is basically what I also said, right? Either Tyrion knows it for certain, or, my personal favorite of the two, he highly suspects it (as there hasn't been a living dragon since 153AC, no one alive has been able to observe such a thing) to be true.

3. Ehm.. Are they truly drawn to those with dragonblood? Alyn Velaryon might disagree, as the dragon he tried to claim tried to make a roasted Alyn out of him. Alyn has Targaryen blood (through Corlys), yet the dragons were not "attracted" to him. Also, Drogon is bound to Dany, and dragons only accept one rider at a time.

And I can't remember Drogon ever flying over the Shy Maid?

4. Tyrion does not have the horn and thus can´t expect that to be the reason? Yet Tyrion also doesn't know about Aerys and his behavior towards Joanna, yet that should suddenly click in his head? No. Until Tyrion is told about Aerys, such a thought train won't be logical. Until Tyrion learns about the horn, Tyrion can't use that as a logical explanation either. Fortunately, as seen in the sample chapters of Winds, the horn and Tyrion are getting closer and closer..

5. Tyrion hates Cersei, that seems clear. Tyrion hates Tywin too. And Jaime has definitly fallen from grace, in Tyrions eyes (but I doubt that the arc between the two brothers is over yet). But is having the character hate his family enough to simply make the character part of another family? What would the plot point be?

As to the closing paragraph.. Dany knows that Aerys had a crush and that he behaved inappropriately during Joanna's bedding.. She doesn't know about any actual sex between the two, so no, the thought doesn't have to appear as a first thought in her head. Dany, who will first need to return to Meereen, before ever being able to think about it, might sooner suspect the horn. After all, she believes she's the last of her line.

Joanna wasn't described to Dany as Aerys' paramour, in any case. And "your father was quite taken with a lady from Casterly Rock" does not equal "my father and that woman had sex, leading to the birth of this man".

1. I only meant that Barristan knew 'Aerys lusted after Joanna', which is at least a hint he could tell Tyrion, just as he told Dany. I agree no one seems to know of a confirmed affair.

2. yeah

3. It is very easy to miss, to be sure;

Too rich, thought Tyrion, Too beautiful. It is never wise to tempt dragons. The drowned city was all around them. A half-seen shape flapped by overhead, pale and leathery wings beating at the fog. The dwarf craned his head around to get a better look, but the thing was gone as suddenly as it had appeared.”--DwD

Drogon is out and about, flying hundreds of miles away from Meereen and came right to Tyrion. Dragons are drawn to dragon blood.

4. Sure, I guess eventually Victarion could give Tyrion the horn. I just personally don't see that happening. I dont see the horn as something Vic is going to let go of easily. And I don't think that Tyrion needs to know about Aerys before he goes to ride Viserion. I mean it would probably give him confidence on the approach, but I don't think the reveal has to be made before he can ride.

5. Well, IMO, there must be a reason for Tyrion constant bitching and moaning and very nasty jokes about the LAnnisters during all of his journey in DwD. The plot point to me is that he is building himself up to not care at all when he finds out he is not the son of this man he hates, and only half-siblings to Jaime and Cersei, whom he also really really loathes, or at least says and thinks he does( I reserve that him and Jaime may reconcile at some point, but who knows). Here are a few, only from his journey in DwD and WoW;

“If it is useful occupation you require, useful occupation you shall have,” his father then said. So to mark his manhood, Tyrion was given charge of all the drains and cisterns of Casterly Rock. Perhaps he hoped I’d fall into one. But Tywin had been disappointed in that. The drains never drained half so well as when he had charge of them.

I need a cup of wine, to wash the taste of Tywin from my mouth.”

“Lord Tywin was sitting on a privy, so I put a crossbow bolt through his bowels to see if he really did shit gold. He didn’t. A pity, I could have used some gold. I also slew my mother, somewhat earlier. Oh, and my nephew Joffrey, I poisoned him at his wedding feast and watched him choke to death. Did the cheesemonger leave that part out? I mean to add my brother and sister to the list before I’m done, if it please your queen.

“The king I slew was sitting on her throne, and all those I betrayed were lions, so it seems to me that I have already done the queen good service.”

“There is blood between Targaryen and Lannister. Why would you support the cause of Queen Daenerys?”

“For gold and glory,” the dwarf said cheerfully. “Oh and hate. If you had ever met my sister, you would understand.”

“No matter, Griff. You are no knight and I am Hugor Hill, a little monster. Your little monster, if you like. You have my word, all that I desire is to be leal servant of your dragon queen.”

“And how do you propose to serve her?

“With my tongue.” He licked his fingers, one by one. “I can tell Her Grace how my sweet sister thinks, if you can call it thinking. I can tell her captains the best way to defeat my brother, Jaime in battle. I know which lords are brave and which are craven, which are loyal and which are venal. I can deliver allies to her. And I know much and more of dragons, as your halfmaester will tell you. I’m amusing too, and I don’t eat much. Consider me your own true imp.”

“The Mother and the Father made us in their image, Hugor. We should glory in our bodies, for they are the work of the gods,”

The gods must have been drunk when they got to me.”

“My father threw me down a well the day I was born, but I was so ugly that the water witch who lived down there spat me back.”

“All that ended abruptly the day his father returned from a sojourn in KL. That night at supper Tyrion surprised his sire by walking the length of the high-table on his hands. Lord Tywin was not pleased. “The gods made you a dwarf. Must you be a fool as well? You were born a lion, not a monkey.”

“The slave soldiers of Volantis were fiercely proud of their tiger stripes, Tyrion knew. Do they yearn for freedom? He wondered. What would they do if this child queen bestowed it on them? What are they if not tigers? What am I, if not a lion?”

“….but to kill your own sire? How could any man do that?

“Give me a crossbow and pull down your breeches, and Ill show you.” Gladly.

“You think this is a jape?”

“I think life is a jape. Yours, mine, everyone’s.”

“The older man was accused of formenting rebellion and spying for the dragon queen.”

“And the young one?”

“Killed his father.”

Tyrion gave the rotting head a second look. Why it almost looks as if those lips are smiling.

“Think of the dead who might still live if Mad Aerys only had two fellow kings to share the rule.”

Instead he had my father, Tyrion thought.”

“But what if there is a hell and my father is waiting for me?”

“…..my hands are crusted with old blood aye. Call me kinslayer, and you wont be wrong. Kingslayer, I’ll have to answer to that one as well. I have killed mothers, fathers, nephews, lovers, men and women, kings and whores. As inger once annoyed me, so I had the bastard stewed. But I have never killed a juggler, nor a dwarf, and I am not to blame for what happened to your bloody brother.”

“His lord father had not welcomed any reminders of his son’s deformities, and such mummers as featured little folk in their troupes soon learned to stay away from Lannisport and Casterly Rock, at the risk of his displeasure. “

“I Understand.’ He found himself thinking of Jaime. Count yourself lucky. Your brother died before he could betray you.”

“What a fraud you are, Imp. You let a hundred guardsmen rape your wife, shot your father through the belly with a quarrel, twisted a golden chain around your lover's throat until her face turned black, yet somehow you still think that you deserve to live.” (WoW)

“He sighed. "I would sell my sister for a cup of wine."

"You would sell your sister for a cup of horse piss." That was so unexpected that it made him laugh aloud. "Is my taste for horse piss so well-known or have you met my sister?" (WoW)

"They use slave soldiers, why not slave commanders? That would ruin the contest, though. This is just a cyvasse game to the Wise Masters. We're the pieces." Tyrion canted his head to one side, considering. "They have that in common with my lord father, these slavers." "Your father? What do you mean?" (WoW)

6. Ok you are right about the last paragraph. To me, it is just interesting that Joanna is the only woman Dany has ever heard of that her father liked besides Rhaella.

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Pretty flimsy "proof" that Drogon was ever anywhere near Tyrion before Daznak's pit.

Oh really? Please explain what that was in the sky then? With the exact same description Dany's dragons, (and dragons from WOIAF) have had before......

I am really interested as to what animal you think it is flying over Tyrion if not a Dragon, since you called me out, please offer another idea.........

Here's some examples off the top of my head.

Tyrion's 2nd chapter DwD,

"Tyrion listened to Illyrio's snores, the creak of the leather straps, the slow clop clop of the team's ironshod hooves on the hard Valyrian road, but his heart was listening for the beat of leathern wings."

Quentyn Dragon tamer

"You must not let him smell your fear. "Down, down, down." He brought the whip around and laid a lash across the dragon's face. Viserion hissed.

A hot wind buffeted him and he heard the sound of leathern wings and the air was full of ash and cinders ......."

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I too thought there was a dragon flying over Tryion...or another flying beast (Harpy anyone...j/k).



The logical thought in my mind was Drogon...but saying it was Pale makes me wonder.



It could be another dragon that we don't know about yet.



I don't know about the dragon blood though...


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Isn't Drogon all Black tho, are his wings pale?

I too thought there was a dragon flying over Tryion...or another flying beast (Harpy anyone...j/k).

The logical thought in my mind was Drogon...but saying it was Pale makes me wonder.

It could be another dragon that we don't know about yet.

I don't know about the dragon blood though...

Ok, I concede the dragon may be Viserion and Not Drogon, but a Dragon it is. IIRC about the timing, Viserion and Rhaegal would be already locked up at this point, and Drogon is the one 'who flies farthest' from Meereen.

Actually, since there are so many hints about Tyrion and Viserion in Dance, maybe this is Viserion and it is before he has been locked up. The time line between Dany and other POV's is hard to tell exactly.....UNless someone else knows for sure?

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I think there is 1 of 2 possible explanations to this. First is that Tyrion imagined the leather wings because he was constantly thinking about them already and was in a place he pictures as having been destroyed by dragons. 2nd is that its something else entirely and not a dragon, such as a wyvern or another creature.

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Ok, I concede the dragon may be Viserion and Not Drogon, but a Dragon it is. IIRC about the timing, Viserion and Rhaegal would be already locked up at this point, and Drogon is the one 'who flies farthest' from Meereen.

Actually, since there are so many hints about Tyrion and Viserion in Dance, maybe this is Viserion and it is before he has been locked up. The time line between Dany and other POV's is hard to tell exactly.....UNless someone else knows for sure?

I only did one read of AFfC & ADwD...I'm in the process on my second complete read. I have finished AGoT & ACoK. I'm taking a break to read TWoIaF and will continue ASoS shortly.

That being said...I'm sure I will pick up on the hints in ADwD you're talking about with Tryion & Viserion...but do you have any quotes or links? I don't recall any off the top of my head.

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I think there is 1 of 2 possible explanations to this. First is that Tyrion imagined the leather wings because he was constantly thinking about them already and was in a place he pictures as having been destroyed by dragons. 2nd is that its something else entirely and not a dragon, such as a wyvern or another creature.

Haha, ok, those are the only 2 possibilities? No chance it is one of the dragons, which we know are on the loose and could easily fly to this location? The only answer is that Tyrion is hallucinating, although he never has before?

I only did one read of AFfC & ADwD...I'm in the process on my second complete read. I have finished AGoT & ACoK. I'm taking a break to read TWoIaF and will continue ASoS shortly.

That being said...I'm sure I will pick up on the hints in ADwD you're talking about with Tryion & Viserion...but do you have any quotes or links? I don't recall any off the top of my head.

The Tyrion/Viserion links only really start in DwD, and continue through the WoW sample chapters. These are the ones I have found thus far;

Tyrion almost grabbed his dragon but thought better of it. Last game he had brought her out too soon and lost her to a trebuchet.”

“He moved his catapult again, closed his hand around Tyrion’s alabaster dragon, removed it from the board.”

--alabaster is a stone that is gold and white, just like Viserion.

“Dead men and dragons were moving through the sky, whilst warships crashed and clashed on Slaver's Bay.” (WoW)

"Three hundred yards from where he stood rose the Wicked Sister, her long arm swinging up with a clutch of corpses —chunk-THUMP—and there they flew, naked and swollen, pale dead birds tumbling boneless through the air. The siege camps shimmered in a gaudy haze of rose and gold, but the famous stepped pyramids of Meereen hulked black against the glare. Something was moving atop one of them, he saw. A dragon, but which one? At this distance, it could as easily have been an eagle. A very big eagle." (WoW)

"Something's happening." He went outside to discover what it was. Dragons.

"The green beast was circling above the bay, banking and turning as longships and galleys clashed and burned below him, but it was the white dragon the sellswords were gawking at. Three hundred yards away the Wicked Sister swung her arm, chunk-THUMP, and six fresh corpses went dancing through the sky. Up they rose, and up, and up. Then two burst into flame.

The dragon caught one burning body just as it began to fall, crunching it between his jaws as pale fires ran across his teeth. White wings cracked against the morning air, and the beast began to climb again. The second corpse caromed off an outstretched claw and plunged straight down, to land amongst some Yunkish horsemen. Some of them caught fire too. One horse reared up and threw his rider. The others ran, trying to outrace the flames and fanning them instead. Tyrion Lannister could almost taste the panic as it rippled out across the camps.” (WoW)

"By the time Plumm and his companions came galloping back from the camp of the Girl General, the white dragon had flown back to its lair above Meereen." (WoW)

"The white cyvasse dragon ended up at Tyrion's feet. He scooped it off the carpet and wiped it on his sleeve, but some of the Yunkish blood had collected in the fine grooves of the carving, so the pale wood seemed veined with red. "All hail our beloved queen, Daenerys." Be she alive or be she dead. He tossed the bloody dragon in the air, caught it, grinned. "We have always been the queen's men," announced Brown Ben Plumm. "Rejoining the Yunkai'i was just a plot."(WoW)

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