Casually smashing a theory to pieces....

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Its definitely the Valyrian blood to ride dragons thing. This is confirmed in the WOIAF several times, apart from being already confirmed in all the other books he has written in Planetos. "It cannot be denied that Valyrains and no one else have an affinity for dragons"

End of argument, no reason to keep speculating, this is the truth. Blood of First men = Wargs/skinchangers, Valyrian Dragonlords = Dragon Tamers/riders.

[Elessar]

What about the passage that says the Asshai'i possible showed the Valyrians how to tame and ride dragons?

[Suzanna Stormborn]

What about the passage that says the Asshai'i possible showed the Valyrians how to tame and ride dragons?

yeah, but then it says, 'but if that's true, then why dont we see any Asshaii with dragons still, why didnt they fight the Valyrians? It is much more likely that the Valyrain version of things is true.'

[Elessar]

Still, hardly a slam dunk.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Still, hardly a slam dunk.

I think it is.

Plus there is zero evidence anywhere in the books, the woiaf, nor the short stories that would ever ever suggest there is a rider without Valyrian blood. So in the absence of any argument against the theory, plus the woiaf confirming Valyrians are the only people to ever mess with dragons, I really dont see what you mean.

ETA: please dont come back with the Nettles argument, as there is zero evidence that she is not of Valyrian blood as well.

[Elessar]

I was just saying I don't see it as a slam-dunk. But you may be right.

[Ran]

We discuss it at the Podcast of Ice and Fire. Basically, we take what George wrote in his Westerlands and Aerys II material that Cersei and Jaime are absolutely Tywin's children.

I see now others see some sliver of hope that there's an ambiguity leaving it open, but... we're satisfied. And glad of it. Not a theory we were ever fans of.

(Tyrion, on the other hand... Though I dearly hope it's not true, George has seemingly added fuel to the fire.)

[Suzanna Stormborn]

We discuss it at the Podcast of Ice and Fire. Basically, we take what George wrote in his Westerlands and Aerys II material that Cersei and Jaime are absolutely Tywin's children.

I see now others see some sliver of hope that there's an ambiguity leaving it open, but... we're satisfied. And glad of it. Not a theory we were ever fans of.

(Tyrion, on the other hand... Though I dearly hope it's not true, George has seemingly added fuel to the fire.)

Cool! Yes I never thought of the twins being Aerys's as a possibility. Tyrion, on the other hand, just seems to fit in so many ways. It's not something I am dying for it to be true, I just really think it is true, given all the hints, starting with Jon and Tyrions first meeting in GOT.

[Bael's Bastard]

I don't believe either theory, and think all of Joanna's children are Tywin's, but I also didn't think the new information in the world book debunked or proved either theory. I do think, at least superficially, the Tyrion one was given a little more to speculate with. But even then, for all the new info it provided, it raised more questions (for example, was Joanna already pregnant or not when she visited KL, did she and Aerys see eachother during that visit other than his insulting remakrs, was her visit to KL in 272 six to nine months before Tyrion's birth in 273, or closer to twelve, or eighteen, or twenty four months). Obviously Joanna being sent home after her wedding means she wasn't around KL regularly anymore, but there is still enough for those who believe it to speculate with, IMO. I think I would be more alright with the Tyrion one turning out to be true, although, like I said, I don't believe Joanna's children were fathered by anyone except Tywin.

[cgf]

Cool! Yes I never thought of the twins being Aerys's as a possibility. Tyrion, on the other hand, just seems to fit in so many ways. It's not something I am dying for it to be true, I just really think it is true, given all the hints, starting with Jon and Tyrions first meeting in GOT.

I just think it's much more attractive storywise for Tyrion to actually be Tywin's kid than to have Tywin's contempt be justified to any degree by Tyrion actually being a constant reminder of the man who stole Tywin's love, which culminated in her death. The twins actually being targ bastards and thus making Tyrion Tywin's only true child would just add an added layer of cuteness to it. Although the twins just highlighting the Lannisters as wannabe-Targs the way the Bolton's skinchanging/flaying-of-Starks highlights them as wannabe-Starks is cute enough in it's own right without the add weight of that coming from an actual Targ link.

[Mithras]

Cersei is becoming the embodiment of all the bad Targaryen kings, chiefly Aerys. Jaime/Cersei has strong parallels with Aemon/Naerys. If you are looking for a prophetic dream, Jaime had one. From narrative perspective, Jaime/Cersei being Targ bastards makes even more sense than Tyrion being a Targ bastard.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Cersei is becoming the embodiment of all the bad Targaryen kings, chiefly Aerys. Jaime/Cersei has strong parallels with Aemon/Naerys. If you are looking for a prophetic dream, Jaime had one. From narrative perspective, Jaime/Cersei being Targ bastards makes even more sense than Tyrion being a Targ bastard.

Depending on your view as to what makes a good narrative. Everything you are saying is totally subjective.

I feel that Cersei being so similar to Aerys shows that bad rulers/queens/kings can come from any family, that power in anyone hands could be dangerous, psychotic people are not limited to this one Valyrian family.

[Elessar]

Pretty sure this book blows that theory to dust, wish we could've knocked out the Tyrion Targ theory at the same time.

Still, A+J= C&J was very flimsy anyway.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Cersei is becoming the embodiment of all the bad Targaryen kings, chiefly Aerys. Jaime/Cersei has strong parallels with Aemon/Naerys. If you are looking for a prophetic dream, Jaime had one. From narrative perspective, Jaime/Cersei being Targ bastards makes even more sense than Tyrion being a Targ bastard.

How about a compromise? Cersei's is Aerys' daughter. Jaime is Tywin's son. Fraternal twins, so it's totally possible.

We discuss it at the Podcast of Ice and Fire. Basically, we take what George wrote in his Westerlands and Aerys II material that Cersei and Jaime are absolutely Tywin's children.

I see now others see some sliver of hope that there's an ambiguity leaving it open, but... we're satisfied. And glad of it. Not a theory we were ever fans of.

(Tyrion, on the other hand... Though I dearly hope it's not true, George has seemingly added fuel to the fire.)

Thanks Ran. Just to clarify though...you don't have confirmation on Cersei and Jaime both being complete Lannisters? Actually, you may not be able to answer that. But you know the Twingaryen fans are going to pounce on that.

Why? George knows what's best for his story. If Tyrion being half Targ is best, then he will be, and it won't take anything away from the story. You don't have to answer. I'm just typing out loud. I wouldn't see it as diminishing Tyrion's arc as so many others are adamant that it would.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Pretty sure this book blows that theory to dust, wish we could've knocked out the Tyrion Targ theory at the same time.

Still, A+J= C&J was very flimsy anyway.

:agree: There was never much in favor of it. Cersei's being an idiot, drinking too much, and having a fascination with wildfire are not genetic issues.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Pretty sure this book blows that theory to dust, wish we could've knocked out the Tyrion Targ theory at the same time.

Still, A+J= C&J was very flimsy anyway.

He did not knock it out because A+J=T seems to have been part of the plan from the beginning--it is why Tyrion will be one of the heads of the dragon and dragon rider. To have three heads of the dragon, there needed to be three children with a least one Targ parent--Dany, Jon and Tyrion. GRRM cannot knock out a theory if he needs the theory to be true for his story to work.

Rather than knock it out--as Ran admitted--GRRM added fuel to the fire. Let it burn--let it burn.

[Lady Flandrensis]

Tyrion's chimeric traits were enough to have me hold it in my head that it was possible.

Yes, let it burn.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

Its definitely the Valyrian blood to ride dragons thing. This is confirmed in the WOIAF several times, apart from being already confirmed in all the other books he has written in Planetos. "It cannot be denied that Valyrains and no one else have an affinity for dragons"

End of argument, no reason to keep speculating, this is the truth. Blood of First men = Wargs/skinchangers, Valyrian Dragonlords = Dragon Tamers/riders.

http://www.mtv.com/news/1976505/george-r-r-martin-game-of-thrones-world-of-ice-and-fire/

I see this video and just cant agree with you. Perhaps at this point there are more arguments for one side, but the topic is still open to debate.

the video is at the bottom, look around m28-m33

[Pod The Rod]

It would be insane for Martin to make Tyrion Aerys's son. The foundation of Tyrion's personality is his conflict with Tywin; as someone put it elsewhere, now we're supposed to discover that Tywin was right all along, and that Tyrion is a bastard born of either rape or Joanna having an affair?

It would completely ruin so much of what makes Tyrion's story compelling, and I don't believe for a second that Martin is so bad of a writer that he doesn't see that.

[Consigliere]

I have never been a big believer of the A+J=T theory but even I have to admit that there might be something there. Previously there was no evidence to support Aerys and Joanna being in the same place and at a time that provides an opportunity for Tyrion's conception. Now with Joanna being in KL in 272AC, a window of opportunity has been provided. Sure there are arguments that this doesn't prove anything but I actually count this new bit of info as a point in favour of the theory simply because it provides that window that was previously missing.

Also I firmly believe that dragonlord blood, specifically Targaryen blood, is needed to bond with a dragon and there doesn't appear to be any Targ blood in the main Lannister line. If Tyrion were to bond with a dragon then it will be all but spelled out that Tyrion is Aerys bastard.