Casually smashing a theory to pieces....

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I don't know how they can, its pretty clear now after AWOIAF. To ride a dragon you need some Valayrian blood in you. Why? Who knows.

I think it is simply because the dragons and the Valyrians originate from the same piece of Earth near the fourteen flames. They share some sort of 'brought up near a volcano' bond.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I don't know how they can, its pretty clear now after AWOIAF. To ride a dragon you need some Valayrian blood in you. Why? Who knows.

Oh, I think the why is pretty clear--not is complete detail but in broad outline. And we have known the reason for a long time. We know that only some of the Valaryen Houses could ride dragons. If just being a Valaryen were enough to ride a dragon (or if blood were irrelevant), then all Valaryen Houses would have ridden dragons. And while Targs were not the only Valaryens to survive the Doom, they were the only dragon-riding House to survive the Doom.

It seems clear that some type of "blood magic" was used by some of the powerful Houses to bind the dragons to their blood. That is why there is the mention of the "right drop of blood" to ride a dragon. Not every descendant of these Houses got the right dragon-riding "gene" but this "gene" is present ONLY in people of those Houses because they were the original people who did the "binding spell" on the dragons. With that "blood magic" in place, no one else will be able to bond with a dragon. I don't think we needed WoIaF to confirm this information--we knew it already--but nice to have more evidence to support this theory.

This analysis has been obvious to me for quite a while. I am not sure why it is not accepted as the only logical explanation by others.

[Seaworth'sShipmate]

None of the Lollys theories smashed are they? If he ruins the Lollys Stokeworth theories..

[UnmaskedLurker]

I think it is simply because the dragons and the Valyrians originate from the same piece of Earth near the fourteen flames. They share some sort of 'brought up near a volcano' bond.

I don't think so. Not all Valyrians can ride a dragon. If location were enough, all Valyrians would have the ability to bond with a dragon. But as I explained in my last post (#182), some form of "blood magic" must have been involved--and only some of the Houses apparently were involved in the blood magic ceremony. As I think more about it, the Doom was probably part of the ultimate price paid for that blood magic. Note that except for the Targs, the only Valyrians who survived were non-dragon riding Valyrians because the Doom was the price to the dragon riders for their blood magic. Somehow, the Targs were blessed with a seer who had a vision of the Doom and saved the Targs--otherwise they would have perished as well. But the non-dragon riding Valyrians were not wiped out in the Doom--not an accident.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Yeah of course, only the 40 dragonlord families could do it. I just meant the proximity to the volcanoes is probably why these peoples were the only ones able to bond with dragons at all, like on the planet.

[Dany's Golden Fleece]

I don't think so. Not all Valyrians can ride a dragon. If location were enough, all Valyrians would have the ability to bond with a dragon. But as I explained in my last post (#182), some form of "blood magic" must have been involved--and only some of the Houses apparently were involved in the blood magic ceremony. As I think more about it, the Doom was probably part of the ultimate price paid for that blood magic. Note that except for the Targs, the only Valyrians who survived were non-dragon riding Valyrians because the Doom was the price to the dragon riders for their blood magic. Somehow, the Targs were blessed with a seer who had a vision of the Doom and saved the Targs--otherwise they would have perished as well. But the non-dragon riding Valyrians were not wiped out in the Doom--not an accident.

But didn't the book say that a dragonrider after the doom flew to Qahor, raised an army and marched south to reclaim Valyria, only to disappear? If so, some non-Targaryen dragonriders did survive the Doom.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

But didn't the book say that a dragonrider after the doom flew to Qahor, raised an army and marched south to reclaim Valyria, only to disappear? If so, some non-Targaryen dragonriders did survive the Doom.

Yeah there was one non-Targ dragonlord who was not in Valyria at the time of the doom, he was on Qohor with his dragon, led a big force back towards Valyria to reclaim it or something, and was never heard from again. He survived because he wasn't there, not because he foresaw the doom like Daenys the Dreamer.

[UnmaskedLurker]

But didn't the book say that a dragonrider after the doom flew to Qahor, raised an army and marched south to reclaim Valyria, only to disappear? If so, some non-Targaryen dragonriders did survive the Doom.

I accept the technical correction--but my main point remains. He survived because he was lucky to be away at the time. The basic thesis is still valid. And note that the entire area cannot even be approached anymore. Would just normal volcanic activity cause people to "disappear" when they went into the area. No, the price was quite high for the blood magic used to bind the dragons to those Houses.

Yeah of course, only the 40 dragonlord families could do it. I just meant the proximity to the volcanoes is probably why these peoples were the only ones able to bond with dragons at all, like on the planet.

I am not sure--they were the ones who found the dragons and figured out how to do the binding spell. Once the spell was caste, I am not sure anyone else can do a new spell to bind dragons, the binding is done. So the proximity may only be relevant for why they were the ones who were near the dragons and had access to them to come up with the spell.

[Dany's Golden Fleece]

Yeah there was one non-Targ dragonlord who was not in Valyria at the time of the doom, he was on Qohor with his dragon, led a big force back towards Valyria to reclaim it or something, and was never heard from again. He survived because he wasn't there, not because he foresaw the doom like Daenys the Dreamer.

Ah ok thanks. All these stories, myths and legends are fascinating to me. Such a rich mythos this world has.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

So alike, that even their own parents would not tell them apart, while the kids are actually a boy and a girl? :dunno: Anyway, that's not going to happen with different fathers.

Let's say you have twins who look a lot alike. One is a boy, one is a girl. You live in a culture that dresses young boys and girls alike, and doesn't cut a boy's hair while he's a child. The historical context is important here.

If Jaime and Cersei are carbon copies of their mother, it does not matter who their father was, as they got the looks from her.

Is there a picture of Joanna in the book???

ETA: for the record, people mistake young boys for girls and girls for boys all the time. When one of my sons was a baby one couple told me he was so beautiful they thought he was a girl.

[Ser Lepus]

Well, if everyone could potentially have a drop of dragon's blood, how would we ever know one way or another if dragon riders don't need it?

Pretty sure that, at this point, everybody in Westeros has a drop or two of dragon's blood, thanks to Dragonstone's Seeds and Aegon IV's many bastards.

Also, everybody in Westeros is at least half-First Man, and people in the Reach are basically First Men with a dash of Andal blood, so anybody could potentially be a skinchanger (unless the requirement isn't First Men's blood, but worship of the Old Gods).

[cgf]

Well, I mean, the proto-Asshai'i did teach the valyrians their magic and the dragons do come from the shadow, so technical the book confirms that you don't actually have to be a targ or even valyrian to ride a dragon...but to do so without the dragon blood you'd need to know the magics of a people so ancient that their name has been forgotten...wish seems like it'd be pretty tricky.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Well, I mean, the proto-Asshai'i did teach the valyrians their magic and the dragons do come from the shadow, so technical the book confirms that you don't actually have to be a targ or even valyrian to ride a dragon...but to do so without the dragon blood you'd need to know the magics of a people so ancient that their name has been forgotten...wish seems like it'd be pretty tricky.

Or maybe the consequences of a spell to bind the dragons are so severe (think DOOM), that no one would try it before the Valyrians--but once it was performed by the top families, the binding was done for those blood lines and a new spell could not supersede that binding. Or maybe new blood lines could be added, but, as you suggest, the knowledge to do it is lost. Either way, the theory holds up that powerful magic with powerful consequences were involved in forming the bond and so Targ blood is necessary to bond with a dragon.

[PatrickStormborn]

Oh, I think the why is pretty clear--not is complete detail but in broad outline. And we have known the reason for a long time. We know that only some of the Valaryen Houses could ride dragons. If just being a Valaryen were enough to ride a dragon (or if blood were irrelevant), then all Valaryen Houses would have ridden dragons. And while Targs were not the only Valaryens to survive the Doom, they were the only dragon-riding House to survive the Doom.

It seems clear that some type of "blood magic" was used by some of the powerful Houses to bind the dragons to their blood. That is why there is the mention of the "right drop of blood" to ride a dragon. Not every descendant of these Houses got the right dragon-riding "gene" but this "gene" is present ONLY in people of those Houses because they were the original people who did the "binding spell" on the dragons. With that "blood magic" in place, no one else will be able to bond with a dragon. I don't think we needed WoIaF to confirm this information--we knew it already--but nice to have more evidence to support this theory.

This analysis has been obvious to me for quite a while. I am not sure why it is not accepted as the only logical explanation by others.

Yeah I tend to agree with this, in which case the dragonhorn would presumably be used to bind a new bloodline to an unbonded dragon.

That would explain the incest - it keeps the dragons in the family and ensures that they don't lose the blood required to bond with their dragons. It also explains why no one family ever managed to gain a monopoly over the Freehold, and also why not all Valyrians were dragonriders.

From this assumption, I would guess that Dany's dragons seek out Targaryen blood simply because they're bonded to her bloodline - which also explains why they seem relatively uninterested in the surely countless Valyrian descendants that surround Dany, but show an interest in Brown Ben Plumm.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

Just happy that a thread I started has over 15,000 views.

It got a little heated in the middle...but I think it is starting to level off now that the book is out.

None of the Lollys theories smashed are they? If he ruins the Lollys Stokeworth theories..

We are all safe...none...I mean NONE of the Lollys theories have been dis-proven.

[cgf]

Or maybe the consequences of a spell to bind the dragons are so severe (think DOOM), that no one would try it before the Valyrians--but once it was performed by the top families, the binding was done for those blood lines and a new spell could not supersede that binding. Or maybe new blood lines could be added, but, as you suggest, the knowledge to do it is lost. Either way, the theory holds up that powerful magic with powerful consequences were involved in forming the bond and so Targ blood is necessary to bond with a dragon.

Well the book does seem to suggest that the Doom was actually orchestrated by the Braavosi assassination of too many of the Valyrian sorcerers who's spells kept the volcanoes of Valyria in check; think sabotaging the security measures on a nuclear powerplant and assassinating the repair crews. Meaning that without this FM intervention their magic was powerful enough to continue at least in the short term. Also we don't know what the proto-Asshai'i who taught the valyrians their magic and likely bread the first dragons from wyverns and firewyrms, did with them. They didn't seem to conquer, but that doesn't mean they didn't control the beasts they created.

So if someone had this type of magical knowledge they could well be able to re-write some of those spells. Now whether anyone in ASOIAF has access to such information, like Bran through his weirnet, maester marwyn through mysteriousness, Euron through his travels and captured warlocks, or whoever, and the tools to wield such magic, I'm not sure. But it's quite possible that that knowledge could still exist and so we could see someone bind dragons to a new bloodline, in fact that seems to be have been Euron's plan for sending Vicky to Meeren. Sacrifice his brother to bind one of dany's dragons to the Greyjoy blood.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

Back to the OP. Has anyone identified which theory was casually disproved?

The theory that A+J=J&C is pretty much dead now but Tyrion still could be...I hope not but still.

I loved the Chapter about Aegon V...but am still upset about the lack of information about Summerhall!! Ugh...I need to know exactly what happened to our dear Dunk & Egg! But it did confirm that there 7 dragon eggs at Summerhall...I wonder if there is anything left of them.

[Elessar]

I think Ran said it was the A+J=J&C that he was referring to in the video? A page or two back...

Ran, correct or no?

[Ser Cold Fingers]

I think Ran said it was the A+J=J&C that he was referring to in the video? A page or two back...

Ran, correct or no?

Awesome. I just went back and read...and that does go along with my interpretation.

Still...Summerhall...come one!!!

[UnmaskedLurker]

Yeah I tend to agree with this, in which case the dragonhorn would presumably be used to bind a new bloodline to an unbonded dragon.

That would explain the incest - it keeps the dragons in the family and ensures that they don't lose the blood required to bond with their dragons. It also explains why no one family ever managed to gain a monopoly over the Freehold, and also why not all Valyrians were dragonriders.

From this assumption, I would guess that Dany's dragons seek out Targaryen blood simply because they're bonded to her bloodline - which also explains why they seem relatively uninterested in the surely countless Valyrian descendants that surround Dany, but show an interest in Brown Ben Plumm.

I am not sure the dragonhorn does what Euron claims it does. I don't think it is that easy to bind a dragon. We will see--but the horn screams red herring to me. As to Dany's dragons--only Drogon has been bound to anyone--Dany. The other two still have not been bound to anyone. The dragons seek out Targ blood, I believe, because the original spell connects them to the Val Houses that participated in the ceremony--and the Targs are the only one of those Houses left with anyone alive. Unless there is a way to add to the blood line that can bind a dragon (and I am not sure there can be at this point), the dragons will only bond with Targs. I just don't think a simple horn can change that--we certainly saw nothing in any of the existing sources that suggest a horn can bind a dragon--and we saw how Targs bind to a dragon (to some extent) and no horn was involved.

Well the book does seem to suggest that the Doom was actually orchestrated by the Braavosi assassination of too many of the Valyrian sorcerers who's spells kept the volcanoes of Valyria in check; think sabotaging the security measures on a nuclear powerplant and assassinating the repair crews. Meaning that without this FM intervention their magic was powerful enough to continue at least in the short term. Also we don't know what the proto-Asshai'i who taught the valyrians their magic and likely bread the first dragons from wyverns and firewyrms, did with them. They didn't seem to conquer, but that doesn't mean they didn't control the beasts they created.

So if someone had this type of magical knowledge they could well be able to re-write some of those spells. Now whether anyone in ASOIAF has access to such information, like Bran through his weirnet, maester marwyn through mysteriousness, Euron through his travels and captured warlocks, or whoever, and the tools to wield such magic, I'm not sure. But it's quite possible that that knowledge could still exist and so we could see someone bind dragons to a new bloodline, in fact that seems to be have been Euron's plan for sending Vicky to Meeren. Sacrifice his brother to bind one of dany's dragons to the Greyjoy blood.

And why were the Val sorcerers forced to use so much of their energy in keeping the area in check--what made it unstable to begin with? Might it have been some powerful "blood magic" that made the dragons bound to the top Val families who participated in the ceremony? That information just adds more texture to my theory about great consequences for the powerful blood magic. As to whether a new spell could change the bond--I don't know, but I don't think anything like that is part of GRRM's plan. I think the Targ bond stays in place as is--it is necessary for the three heads of the dragon to win the Battle for the Dawn.

I think Ran said it was the A+J=J&C that he was referring to in the video? A page or two back...

Ran, correct or no?

Yes, I agree that Ran confirmed that the casually smashed theory was A+J=C+J. He also confirmed that GRRM added the information about Joanna being in same place as Aerys during the year prior to Tyrion's birth--adding fuel to the fire of A+J=T (a theory he does not like but admits has become more likely).