Lady Blizzardborn Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 It would be insane for Martin to make Tyrion Aerys's son. The foundation of Tyrion's personality is his conflict with Tywin; as someone put it elsewhere, now we're supposed to discover that Tywin was right all along, and that Tyrion is a bastard born of either rape or Joanna having an affair? It would completely ruin so much of what makes Tyrion's story compelling, and I don't believe for a second that Martin is so bad of a writer that he doesn't see that. :bs: Yet another I don't like it so it would be "bad writing" comment. Speaking of bad writing...NaNoWriMo is coming up. I hope everyone who knows so much about what makes a good story (and apparently what ruins one) will try their hand at writing a novel this November. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 http://www.mtv.com/news/1976505/george-r-r-martin-game-of-thrones-world-of-ice-and-fire/ I see this video and just cant agree with you. Perhaps at this point there are more arguments for one side, but the topic is still open to debate. the video is at the bottom, look around m28-m33 OK I watched it, He says "taming dragons is perilous and not easy, not like training a dog or cat because it can turn around and fry you to a crisp if it is annoyed' He also says that the "Targs conquered Westeros with their dragons, but that by the time it got to Bobby Baratheon and the dragons had been extinct for several years, that Bob was like 'Oh we dont have to do what you say anymore because you dont have dragons'....but all that changes again now with Dany." He never says one word about Non-Valyrians being able to tame or ride. In fact he specifically says Targaryens and Dany when talking about the dragons. You are reaching if you think he gave any indication non-Targs can ride dragons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perfidious Algernon Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 :bs: Yet another I don't like it so it would be "bad writing" comment. Speaking of bad writing...NaNoWriMo is coming up. I hope everyone who knows so much about what makes a good story (and apparently what ruins one) will try their hand at writing a novel this November. :DI'd disagree that it's illegitimate to argue from a structural perspective: there are conventions around writing, and they tend to be in place for a reason. Plots tend to develop in ways that speak to the personal conflicts characters are wrestling with internally.That said, I don't think the fact that Tyrion's whole personality grows out of his conflicted Lannister identity necessarily makes it bad writing for him to be Aerys' bastard. It could be made to work. I just wonder how the fact would be made public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 OK I watched it, He says "taming dragons is perilous and not easy, not like training a dog or cat because it can turn around and fry you to a crisp if it is annoyed' He also says that the "Targs conquered Westeros with their dragons, but that by the time it got to Bobby Baratheon and the dragons had been extinct for several years, that Bob was like 'Oh we dont have to do what you say anymore because you dont have dragons'....but all that changes again now with Dany." He never says one word about Non-Valyrians being able to tame or ride. In fact he specifically says Targaryens and Dany when talking about the dragons. You are reaching if you think he gave any indication non-Targs can ride dragons. You missed the best quote. He said that they practiced incest to keep the bloodlines pure "so that they could better control the dragons." Now haters gonna hate, so they will say that the Targs only believed they needed to keep the bloodlines pure but they were wrong--or that Targ blood helps to control dragons but is not necessary. Fine--if you are desperate for a loophole, you may find it. To me, that statement by GRRM is pretty good confirmation that Targ blood is necessary to control (read as "bond with") a dragon. But I think that the discussion of the dangers in controlling dragons is not really new news. We have seen people die trying to bond with a dragon--and we know that basically the way to control a dragon is to bond with it, but the bonding process is still somewhat mysterious. But we have only seen people with Targ blood able to bond with a dragon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 I'd disagree that it's illegitimate to argue from a structural perspective: there are conventions around writing, and they tend to be in place for a reason. Plots tend to develop in ways that speak to the personal conflicts characters are wrestling with internally.That said, I don't think the fact that Tyrion's whole personality grows out of his conflicted Lannister identity necessarily makes it bad writing for him to be Aerys' bastard. It could be made to work. I just wonder how the fact would be made public.Fair points, fair points. But GRRM is rather well known for bucking convention, yet not once when he's done so (in this series at least) has it resulted in "bad" writing. I'm not certain it would be made public. I'm not certain Tyrion himself would ever know. I'm not certain any of us will ever know. This could be the biggest unconfirmed rumor of the series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elessar Posted October 29, 2014 Author Share Posted October 29, 2014 Just happy that a thread I started has over 15,000 views. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dofs Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 How about a compromise? Cersei's is Aerys' daughter. Jaime is Tywin's son. Fraternal twins, so it's totally possible. I don't think that's possible, really. Jaime looks like Cersei in armor, they are just too similar to have different fathers. They are probably not even fraternal twins but a case of this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin#Half-identical_or_semi-identical_twins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Señor de la Tormenta Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 OK I watched it, He says "taming dragons is perilous and not easy, not like training a dog or cat because it can turn around and fry you to a crisp if it is annoyed' He also says that the "Targs conquered Westeros with their dragons, but that by the time it got to Bobby Baratheon and the dragons had been extinct for several years, that Bob was like 'Oh we dont have to do what you say anymore because you dont have dragons'....but all that changes again now with Dany." He never says one word about Non-Valyrians being able to tame or ride. In fact he specifically says Targaryens and Dany when talking about the dragons. You are reaching if you think he gave any indication non-Targs can ride dragons. I got to stay with him saying "its something not entirely understood" to the specific question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 I don't think that's possible, really. Jaime looks like Cersei in armor, they are just too similar to have different fathers. They are probably not even fraternal twins but a case of this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin#Half-identical_or_semi-identical_twins They can both look like their mother even with different fathers, so yes it is possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 I got to stay with him saying "its something not entirely understood" to the specific question. How they bond with the dragons is not entirely understood. The need for Targ blood to make bonding possible is fully understood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Flandrensis Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Just happy that a thread I started has over 15,000 views. :D I love your honesty! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdaw Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 How they bond with the dragons is not entirely understood. The need for Targ blood to make bonding possible is fully understood. I don't agree. Every dragon rider either has Targ blood (not strictly true but Valyrian history is irrelevant to this discussion) or their lineage is dubious concerning Targ blood. It may well be a requirement, it may not. I think the different texts make it apparent that it's certainly thought that it's a requirement by those on Westeros and Essos, an agreed fact. The most important thing I think is that in every case of a dragon rider GRRM has made it certain or included a dubious reference to Targaryen lineage, as he has clearly gone out of his way to do so with Tyrion here. Then there's the horn. That said, I don't think the fact that Tyrion's whole personality grows out of his conflicted Lannister identity necessarily makes it bad writing for him to be Aerys' bastard. It could be made to work. I just wonder how the fact would be made public. Everyone knows Targaryens ride dragons. That agreed fact and what Barristan knows of Aerys and Joanna will probably be enough to raise the question. It doesn't need a public debate, it's Tyrion and Dany who it matters to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KyleLitke Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 It definitely added fuel to the fire. Before ADWD, it was a loony theory based pretty much on "Tyrion says he dreams about dragons". ADWD added the Aerys/Joanna stuff, but all we had was a vague mention of possible liberties being taken on the wedding night, which was way too far before Tyrion's birth, and anything beyond that was speculation. If nothing else, this added that Joanna and Aerys were in the same place in 272 AC, with Tyrion being born in 273 AC (potentially works for the timeline, if Tyrion was born earlier in the year and the tournament was later in the year). It actually seems likely Tyrion was conceived at Kings Landing regardless, since the text explicitly states that Aerys refused to allow Tywin to resign and instead kept him close. Tywin may not have even returned to Casterly Rock until Joanna's death. Obviously this doesn't give anything in the ballpark of confirmation, but it certainly gives more hints. Whether that's because it's true, or whether it's a red herring, we don't know. As far as it being "bad writing"...as Sansa learned, not everything is a story. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dofs Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 They can both look like their mother even with different fathers, so yes it is possible. Not if nobody could tell them apart when they were children. That's not even normal for children with the same father, not to mention different ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Not if nobody could tell them apart when they were children. That's not even normal for children with the same father, not to mention different ones. Yes it is normal. I've known a lot of kids who look so much alike that people would think they were identical twins if they weren't separated by years that made one taller than the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dofs Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Yes it is normal. I've known a lot of kids who look so much alike that people would think they were identical twins if they weren't separated by years that made one taller than the other. So alike, that even their own parents would not tell them apart, while the kids are actually a boy and a girl? :dunno: Anyway, that's not going to happen with different fathers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 OH!!!! Also, As I continued reading last night about the Targaryen kings, I read through the whole first dance with dragons. And woiaf officially has Nettles, Addam, Ulf and the betrayer all listed as 'dragonseeds'. It even gives account of a few of their families. It does say Nettles was 'baseborn', but then it refers to her as a 'dragonseed' who rides Sheepstealer. she must be the child or grandchild of some servant who slept with a 'blood of the drgaon' living on Dragonstone. So hopefully (although I know it wont) this should put an end to the Nettles controversy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 OH!!!! Also, As I continued reading last night about the Targaryen kings, I read through the whole first dance with dragons. And woiaf officially has Nettles, Addam, Ulf and the betrayer all listed as 'dragonseeds'. It even gives account of a few of their families. It does say Nettles was 'baseborn', but then it refers to her as a 'dragonseed' who rides Sheepstealer. she must be the child or grandchild of some servant who slept with a 'blood of the drgaon' living on Dragonstone. So hopefully (although I know it wont) this should put an end to the Nettles controversy. Come on--you know haters gonna hate. They will chalk it up to "unreliable narrator" or "Targ propaganda" to explain it away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Come on--you know haters gonna hate. They will chalk it up to "unreliable narrator" or "Targ propaganda" to explain it away. Oh I know. I'm not sure if this makes any difference, but her being a 'dragonseed' was not listed in the story, it is listed on the page with the list of the dragonriders names and that of their dragons. Seems more official that way, to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dany's Golden Fleece Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Come on--you know haters gonna hate. They will chalk it up to "unreliable narrator" or "Targ propaganda" to explain it away. I don't know how they can, its pretty clear now after AWOIAF. To ride a dragon you need some Valayrian blood in you. Why? Who knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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