Aussies LXIII - Fear Inc

[Gears of the Beast]

Although, it sounds as though the politicians are as whacky as ours, so I guess there's no escape from that particular phenomenon.

If you're American then it's not even close; ours are way less whacky than yours.

[Stubby]

Although, it sounds as though the politicians are as whacky as ours, so I guess there's no escape from that particular phenomenon.

You spelled "fuckwits that make selfishness an ideology" wrong.

[Xenharmonic]

Is this post sarcasm, Stubby?
If not, care to offer up evidence for this "serial bullshit" that's going on in office?

Also, do you consider yourself a "Social Justice Warrior"?

[Stubby]

No sarcasm at all.

The SJW thing is in reply to other threads going on here.

The serial bullshit is in relation to anything coming out of the mouths of Tony Abbott, Campbell Newman, Scott Morrison, Christopher Pyne, the NSW pollies busted by the enquiry into corruption et al.

For the evidence, we'll start with this story about Abbott and this summary of the resignations following evidence given at the ICAC (taken from here):

NSW MP movements Stepped aside from parliamentary party

• Former Resources Minister Chris Hartcher
• Member for the Entrance Chris Spence
• Member for Wyong Darren Webber
• Former Police Minister Mike Gallacher
• Member of the Legislative Council Marie Ficarra
• Member for Swansea Garry Edwards
• Member for Londonberry Bart Bassett

Resigned from Parliament

• Former Member for Newcastle Tim Owen
• Former Member for Charlestown Andrew Cornwell

I think this sort of thing qualifies as "serial".

[Xenharmonic]

That Sydney Morning Herald article is complete, biased bullshit.
I thought they were a serious newspaper, really quite strange to them employing consultants to write crap like that.
It's a scientific fact that humans are having an effect on global warming?

Lol, it's a theory, and there are many scientists that believe the current warming is due to earth's natural cool and warm cycles. Might be probable, but that doesn't excuse those d bags from saying it's absolute fact.

Sure, Tony Abbott may not be the best PM, but Australia is in a golden age at the moment.

Don't know how you could even argue against that, when you compare our country to the rest of the world.

And why are you complaining that someone busted for corruption had to step down? Or are there subtleties I'm not understanding?


Finally, are you of the opinion that Australia shouldn't be going to attack ISIL?

[Stubby]

That Sydney Morning Herald article is complete, biased bullshit.

I thought they were a serious newspaper, really quite strange to them employing consultants to write crap like that.

It's a scientific fact that humans are having an effect on global warming?

Lol, it's a theory, and there are many scientists that believe the current warming is due to earth's natural cool and warm cycles. Might be probable, but that doesn't excuse those d bags from saying it's absolute fact.

Sure, Tony Abbott may not be the best PM, but Australia is in a golden age at the moment.

Don't know how you could even argue against that, when you compare our country to the rest of the world.

And why are you complaining that someone busted for corruption had to step down? Or are there subtleties I'm not understanding?

From the article:

But what of Tony? Will he be remembered as a liar? Probably, but probably he'll be remembered for much more. Eventually, and more likely sooner rather than later, global warming will be undeniable. Truly undeniable.

Which means Abbott should go down in history as the Australian Prime Minister, the last Australian Prime Minister, to deny physical reality.

We already know that Tony hates science, given that he did away with the position of scientific adviser. Maybe he did that because he is not interested in reality?

By using the abbreviated version "d bags" are we to assume that you are calling the two professors of mathematics that wrote the article "douchebags"?

I am not 'complaining' that people busted for corruption are stepping down. I am all for more of them getting busted about their dishonesty and corruption. I pointed it out to support my 'serial bullshit' comment, as you asked.

Overall, I'd have to say that yes, there are subtelties you are misunderstanding.

[Xenharmonic]

I don't think not employing someone as a token "scientific advisor" means you hate science, one of the many fallacies that article speaks about.
The government employs many people in scientific roles, and a "carbon tax" was never going to help anything.

As to GW becoming fact— it's already fact. The earth at points of history moves closer and further from the sun.
What's not proven is that our own contribution is significant.

What many people don't seem to realise is that the recent increase in temperatures is not at all alarming. Basically it's political propaganda to try and win votes.

What we should do is start investing in alternative energy sources for when oil and coal run out, because we're really in trouble if we don't have them before that happens.

EG: Nuclear power, which by the way has been proven by history as very safe.

Many more people die in coal mining every year than die due to nuclear accidents.

[karaddin]

:lol:

Are you getting paid or do you actually believe this horseshit?

[Stubby]

I don't think not employing someone as a token "scientific advisor" means you hate science, one of the many fallacies that article speaks about.

The government employs many people in scientific roles, and a "carbon tax" was never going to help anything.

As to GW becoming fact— it's already fact. The earth at points of history moves closer and further from the sun.

What's not proven is that our own contribution is significant.

Evidence please.

[Gears of the Beast]

Haha that bit you quoted is so dishonest. Tony accepts anthropogenic climate change (as they admitted), so why are they trying to act like he'll be remembered as 'the PM to deny physical reality'? That's just absurd. And no, I don't think we know that he hates science, that's fairly extreme.

And yes there is substantial evidence that humans have a significant effect on climate change - which is why the overwhelming majority of climate scientists agree that this is the case.

[karaddin]

Haha that bit you quoted is so dishonest. Tony accepts anthropogenic climate change (as they admitted), so why are they trying to act like he'll be remembered as 'the PM to deny physical reality'? That's just absurd. And no, I don't think we know that he hates science, that's fairly extreme.

And yes there is substantial evidence that humans have a significant effect on climate change - which is why the overwhelming majority of climate scientists agree that this is the case.

Tony "admits it", then engages in rhetoric that makes it clear he doesn't actually believe it. The crap last year about it being a tax on an invisible gas, like the fact we can't see it means it isn't capable of having an impact? That's climate denial dog whistling just as clearing as US politicians use dog whistles on the issue of race.

You know what he really thinks about it, I know what he thinks about it, and the Australian electorate were pretty fucking clear on it when they elected him. His "official platform" (which he's happily walked away from on plenty of issues) is that it's an issue, his personal opinion is that the science is crap.

[arya_underfoot]

Tony "admits it", then engages in rhetoric that makes it clear he doesn't actually believe it. The crap last year about it being a tax on an invisible gas, like the fact we can't see it means it isn't capable of having an impact? That's climate denial dog whistling just as clearing as US politicians use dog whistles on the issue of race.

You know what he really thinks about it, I know what he thinks about it, and the Australian electorate were pretty fucking clear on it when they elected him. His "official platform" (which he's happily walked away from on plenty of issues) is that it's an issue, his personal opinion is that the science is crap.

Unfortunately, the problem is not purely with Abbott. The big issue is that huge sections of the population believe that manmade global warming is Labor/Green/general leftie/hippy/homosexual/[insert anyone not fitting their narrow criteria for what is "acceptable"] propaganda aimed at raising taxes. The real challenge of our times is to convince these masses of people, the politicians with their narrow-minded interests will follow.

[Xenharmonic]

Unfortunately, the problem is not purely with Abbott. The big issue is that huge sections of the population believe that manmade global warming is Labor/Green/general leftie/hippy/homosexual/[insert anyone not fitting their narrow criteria for what is "acceptable"] propaganda aimed at raising taxes. The real challenge of our times is to convince these masses of people, the politicians with their narrow-minded interests will follow.

http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/greenhouse_data.html

Actually, the problem is convincing people that the selfish political schemers are just using classic scare tactics to try and secure votes.

Humans may have significant impact on climate change but it's not proven.

I strongly care about the environment and I think (based on concrete evidence) that our non sustainable energy/production relying on fossil fuels is a much bigger issue than global warming, but there's profits to be made in the short term by people in those industries.

That's why Al Gore didn't make a documentary about oil running out— just standard, self serving political motivation.

Note, I'm not suggesting that Abbott is great or working towards these ideals, just that Australia is in a really good place at the moment and it would be foolish to think otherwise.
The government is not that bad. We still have a lot of rights and privileges that most countries lack.

If we ever get a party that opens up our borders and lets anyone immigrate, THEN things will turn to crap.

[Gears of the Beast]

http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/greenhouse_data.html

Uhhh considering the fact that there's a 97% consensus on anthropogenic global warming in the peer-reviewed scientific literature you're probably gonna need to do better than an outdated webpage by someone with no qualifications.

Actually, the problem is convincing people that the selfish political schemers are just using classic scare tactics to try and secure votes.

:lol:

[The Winged Shadow]

http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/greenhouse_data.html

This is a ridiculous article. It claims that "Interestingly, many "facts and figures' regarding global warming completely ignore the powerful effects of water vapor in the greenhouse system". This is incorrect. Water Vapor is the major greenhouse gas and is a crucial part of all climate models. In fact, it is the biggest reason why it is so important to curb greenhouse gas emission. Water vapor is one of the primary cause of the positive feedback loop, which means that, to put it simply, as temperature increases, more water vapor is produced, and as water vapor have high heat storing capacity, the temperature rises, which produces more water vapor etc.

The reason that water vapor isn't usually tabulated (many articles DO tabulate it, unlike what that article imply) with the other greenhouse gas is because water vapor is a function of temperature, which is a function of many of those greenhouse gases (as explained above in the positive feedback loop example). Most of the time, in scientific article, you don't tend to mix independent variable with dependent variable. For example, producing more CO2 does not result in higher Methane or NO2, but it does lead to higher water vapor. Which is why the article's key conclusion "Water vapor, responsible for 95% of Earth's greenhouse effect, is 99.999% natural (some argue, 100%). Even if we wanted to we can do nothing to change this." (italics mine) is completely rubbish. When you reduce CO2 and Methane and other greenhouse gas, you indirectly affect the production of Water Vapor. So we CAN affect water vapor production, even though it almost entirely naturally occurring. Reducing temperature, and thus production of water vapor, is one of the main reasons for reducing CO2, Methane etc!

The earth at points of history moves closer and further from the sun.

This is also proven to be NOT the main driver of climate change over the next 100 years (which is the usual timeframe for climate models). The reason is that, while the claim is correct, this shift happens over tens of thousands of years, not hundreds. Solar irradiance is part of many climate models at any rate, so it is taken into account already (but this is primarily for the 11 year solar cycle).

I don't know what it will take for you to take climate scientist seriously, but your ignorance on the matter, as evident by you linking that article, does not mean that climate debate isn't settled. It is settled, and the evidence for human impact on climate change is getting stronger and stronger as more data is being obtained from all the new toys that were sent up to gather these data.

What would it take for you to take the scientific literature that are out there seriously? Because based on what you've said so far, and articles you've linked, you are not all that informed about climate change and are hell bent on not believing it regardless of how much consensus are out there in the scientific community.

[Xenharmonic]

This is a ridiculous article. It claims that "Interestingly, many "facts and figures' regarding global warming completely ignore the powerful effects of water vapor in the greenhouse system". This is incorrect. Water Vapor is the major greenhouse gas and is a crucial part of all climate models. In fact, it is the biggest reason why it is so important to curb greenhouse gas emission. Water vapor is one of the primary cause of the positive feedback loop, which means that, to put it simply, as temperature increases, more water vapor is produced, and as water vapor have high heat storing capacity, the temperature rises, which produces more water vapor etc.

The reason that water vapor isn't usually tabulated (many articles DO tabulate it, unlike what that article imply) with the other greenhouse gas is because water vapor is a function of temperature, which is a function of many of those greenhouse gases (as explained above in the positive feedback loop example). Most of the time, in scientific article, you don't tend to mix independent variable with dependent variable. For example, producing more CO2 does not result in higher Methane or NO2, but it does lead to higher water vapor. Which is why the article's key conclusion "Water vapor, responsible for 95% of Earth's greenhouse effect, is 99.999% natural (some argue, 100%). Even if we wanted to we can do nothing to change this." (italics mine) is completely rubbish. When you reduce CO2 and Methane and other greenhouse gas, you indirectly affect the production of Water Vapor. So we CAN affect water vapor production, even though it almost entirely naturally occurring. Reducing temperature, and thus production of water vapor, is one of the main reasons for reducing CO2, Methane etc!

This is also proven to be NOT the main driver of climate change over the next 100 years (which is the usual timeframe for climate models). The reason is that, while the claim is correct, this shift happens over tens of thousands of years, not hundreds. Solar irradiance is part of many climate models at any rate, so it is taken into account already (but this is primarily for the 11 year solar cycle).

I don't know what it will take for you to take climate scientist seriously, but your ignorance on the matter, as evident by you linking that article, does not mean that climate debate isn't settled. It is settled, and the evidence for human impact on climate change is getting stronger and stronger as more data is being obtained from all the new toys that were sent up to gather these data.

What would it take for you to take the scientific literature that are out there seriously? Because based on what you've said so far, and articles you've linked, you are not all that informed about climate change and are hell bent on not believing it regardless of how much consensus are out there in the scientific community.

Thank you for explaining it in such a detailed fashion, as you said, I am indeed uninformed about climate change, and if the scientific community really has reached a consensus then I will indeed believe that it is overwhelmingly likely.

However, all of this being true, in the near future the exhaustion of fossil fuels is still a much more pressing issue.

Oil powers almost all of our food harvesting, manufacturing, transport etc.

[Gears of the Beast]

Don't the two issues go hand-in-hand? Fossil fuels are bad because they're non renewable/dwindling and they have quite a negative effect on the environment. Doesn't seem very helpful to have utter cretins in power like Joe Hockey who claims that wind turbines are "offensive" and who are abolishing many of the programs in place to deal with the issue.

[AndrewJ]

Australia's becoming more dangerous all the time. It's getting so you can't even walk the streets safely now. :crying:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ciDAfhhSgns

[Stubby]

Australia's becoming more dangerous all the time. It's getting so you can't even walk the streets safely now. :crying:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ciDAfhhSgns

:lol:

These thugs that just fight in the street. What's the country coming to!!!

[The Winged Shadow]

Thank you for explaining it in such a detailed fashion, as you said, I am indeed uninformed about climate change, and if the scientific community really has reached a consensus then I will indeed believe that it is overwhelmingly likely.

However, all of this being true, in the near future the exhaustion of fossil fuels is still a much more pressing issue.

Oil powers almost all of our food harvesting, manufacturing, transport etc.

I agree, that energy policy is a more pressing issue. Luckily, these two are linked and divesting from fossil fuel will be a big win for both sustainable energy and environment/climate.

Australia's becoming more dangerous all the time. It's getting so you can't even walk the streets safely now. :crying:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ciDAfhhSgns

We need lockout laws for these violent hooligans!