R+L=J v. 107

[DarkSister1001]

I love the parallels of Jon and Bloodraven and I think the parallels are yet more clues into the R+L=J theory. Both wargs. Jon's wargs into Ghost, a direwolf and the animal of his mother's house. BR tends to lean on raven's more than other animals, easier and convenient, but they are also on his Mother's house banners. BRs killing of Daemon Blackfyre earned him the title of kinslayer though he was doing his duty. Similarly Jon's killing of Qhorin earned him the title of turncloak and again, he was doing his duty. They've both had to deal with living as bastards, though they both had noble parents (even if BRs weren't married). BR was legitimized by his father and Jon was legitimized by Robb.

[Kingmonkey]

This is what frustrates me about the world book. I mean, why even write it in the POV of a maester?

Because it's fiction, not history. It's a good method to be able to keep the text interesting, allowing voice and character. It also sheds the requirement for accuracy and comprehensiveness, which both saves the "I found an inconsistency!" grief and serves the purposes of storytelling too. This way hints can be easily dropped in without being spoilers.

It may be annoying to those dedicated souls who really just wanna KNOW, dammit! but on the other hand it's probably going to make it a much more enjoyable read for the majority.

[Consigliere]

Because it's fiction, not history. It's a good method to be able to keep the text interesting, allowing voice and character. It also sheds the requirement for accuracy and comprehensiveness, which both saves the "I found an inconsistency!" grief and serves the purposes of storytelling too. This way hints can be easily dropped in without being spoilers.

It may be annoying to those dedicated souls who really just wanna KNOW, dammit! but on the other hand it's probably going to make it a much more enjoyable read for the majority.

But this is not true. It IS history. Look, I'm grateful for the book and looking forward to reading it but I just don't like the fact that it is written from the POV of a maester.

[addicted to snow]

This is what frustrates me about the world book. I mean, why even write it in the POV of a maester? I guess I will have to wait and see how the text is presented but I suppose it will be just like TPatQ and TRP where X says this, Y says that and Z says something else and we will be left to decide which is more likely or, as in most cases, choose to believe the account that fits with our own personal beliefs.

The Goal is to sell books without GRRM actually having to give away any of his secrets...

[Consigliere]

The Goal is to sell books without GRRM actually having to give away any of his secrets...

That is just fucked up, if true.

Anyway, I've reached the point of no return so I will by the book regardless.

[Lonin]

This is what frustrates me about the world book. I mean, why even write it in the POV of a maester? I guess I will have to wait and see how the text is presented but I suppose it will be just like TPatQ and TRP where X says this, Y says that and Z says something else and we will be left to decide which is more likely or, as in most cases, choose to believe the account that fits with our own personal beliefs.

:agree: I like the pov style, but it seems that grrm is too reluctant to make anything definitive.

[Ellfoy]

This is what frustrates me about the world book. I mean, why even write it in the POV of a maester? I guess I will have to wait and see how the text is presented but I suppose it will be just like TPatQ and TRP where X says this, Y says that and Z says something else and we will be left to decide which is more likely or, as in most cases, choose to believe the account that fits with our own personal beliefs.

Every history books are written by historians who don't know the absolute truth. So that is normal. The infuriating thing about the WoIaF is that it is written by a maester for Robert/Joffrey/Tommen Baratheon. The most recent Targaryen history, the rebellion are gonna be wrote in a soooo objective way.

[Consigliere]

Every history books are written by historians who don't know the absolute truth. So that is normal. The infuriating thing about the WoIaF is that it is written by a maester for Robert/Joffrey/Tommen Baratheon. The most recent Targaryen history, the rebellion are gonna be written in a soooo objective way.

I guess I didn't make myself clear. The reason this annoys me is just what you mentioned. I mean how much of this book can be considerted canon?

[BearQueen87]

Every history books are written by historians who don't know the absolute truth. So that is normal. The infuriating thing about the WoIaF is that it is written by a maester for Robert/Joffrey/Tommen Baratheon. The most recent Targaryen history, the rebellion are gonna be wrote in a soooo objective way.

Yeah I have that problem with the book too. It's going to make Robert out to be a hero and Rhaegar to be the devil who kidnaps defenseless Northern women...when many people have already figured out that the story of R and L is way more complex.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Or, there will be barely any mention of Rhaegar, except when, how and where he was born and who killed him. I doubt his actions, whether written under a completely negative light or not, are something Robert would want to read and be remembered of.

In the hypothetical case he had ever opened that book, of course... :dunno:

[BearQueen87]

Or, there will be barely any mention of Rhaegar, except when, how and where he was born and who killed him. I doubt his actions, whether written under a completely negative light or not, are something Robert would want to read and be remembered of.

In the hypothetical case he had ever opened that book, of course... :dunno:

But Robert would want to remember this battles and war, right? He was rather fond of how good he was at fighting.

[Consigliere]

Forget R+L=J. What about dragon riding? One maester will say X, another Y and another Z. We will not know any more about dragon riding after the book that we do now. Hopefully we get some clear information about certain things.

[BearQueen87]

Forget R+L=J. What about dragon riding? One maester will say X, another Y and another Z. We will not know any more about dragon riding after the book that we do now. Hopefully we get some clear information about certain things.

I would like a very detailed account of the Tourney and Harrenhal, some helpful information about Valryian religion and cultural practices, and an essay on "here's everything you need to know about the COTF and the First Men." That's not asking for much, right? ;)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Or, there will be barely any mention of Rhaegar, except when, how and where he was born and who killed him. I doubt his actions, whether written under a completely negative light or not, are something Robert would want to read and be remembered of.

In the hypothetical case he had ever opened that book, of course... :dunno:

Perhaps, because Robert died before the book was completed, the maester saw a chance to add a couple of pages to his book, adding Rhaegar stuff? ;)

Well, I'd rather say that Ned was getting confused about the time line about events this long ago, especially because of the shape he was in at the time.

I do not doubt that he was 18, or that he was at Eyrie once, but it is pretty unlikely that he spent time there both before and after Harrenhal (i.e. Jon, Robert, and Ned were most likely at the Gates of the Moon, not at the Eyrie, when Aerys called for the heads of Robert and Ned.

After the end of the False Spring winter should have returned for quite some time, and it should be pretty much impossible to live at the Eyrie during real winter. It was already pretty hard during autumn, we get as much from Sansa's chapters.

It would make little sense to assume that Jon Arryn would first jump up into the Eyrie in the False Spring, then go down again during the winter, and then jump up again when it looks again as if the weather is going to get better. In fact, reason dictates that he would then wait a lot longer to ensure that he did not go up there during another 'false spring'.

In that sense, I'd argue again that Ned either was not in the Vale prior to Harrenhal, or that he did at least not stay at the Eyrie if he was at the Vale (but at the Gates of the Moon). Ned and Robert clearly spent a lot of time at the Eyrie during during the fostering days, but Ned really may be mistaken on this whole 'I was in the Eyrie before I went to Harrenhal' thing. He may have been there some time before that (i.e. in the last autumn) but not directly before he went to Harrenhal.

I've given the timeline thing another thought. Isn't it more logical that Ned, though he always spend a lot of time Eyrie, had taken this route:

Eyrie - Winterfell - Harrenhal - Eyrie?

He was down from the Eyrie.. does that have to mean he came down from the Eyrie and immediately went to Harrenhal? It seems a bit weird, perhaps, that, if Ned travelled to Harrenhal from the Eyrie, he wouldn't mention travelling with Jon Arryn (who was also there), and perhaps Robert (though it is possible that Robert travelled from SE to Harrenhal, as well). Of course, it is possible that Ned just omitted mentioning that, but perhaps he didn't mention that because they hadn't been traveling together?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I would like a very detailed account of the Tourney and Harrenhal, some helpful information about Valryian religion and cultural practices, and an essay on "here's everything you need to know about the COTF and the First Men." That's not asking for much, right? ;)

There seems to be a (sub)chapter about the Year of the False Spring, so yeah, I guess the tourney will be described :)

[Consigliere]

I would like a very detailed account of the Tourney and Harrenhal, some helpful information about Valryian religion and cultural practices, and an essay on "here's everything you need to know about the COTF and the First Men." That's not asking for much, right? ;)

BQ, you and me both.

We might get X person says this, Y pesron says that and other different accounts. From the varying accounts people will choose what best fits their personal theories.

[IceFire125]

Though it may not be 'canon', I believe those images from the show's History and Lore show a different aspect of R+L=J in a medium through D&D's eyes.

Remember, that according to GRRM D&D have already guessed who Jon's Mother is, not only that, he already told them of the ending.

If by deductive reasoning, we accept by faith (on top of him declaring publicly), that GRRM will not deviate from his set origin of who Jon's parents are, I think it's safe to say that D&D already know. Now, as a reader, I admit, I must take another leap of faith that Rhaegar did marry Lyanna. I feel that there are layers and subtle texts showing Jon is legitimate, but it is still a theory, beyond the R+L=J theory.

Putting all these together, by placing a flower (rose?) next to AA forging Lightbringer through NissaNissa's heart and another flower (winter rose?) being held by Ned placing it next to Lyanna's dead body, to me shows D&D's version of their '3 level type of revelation' strategy.

[Ellfoy]

Though it may not be 'canon', I believe those images from the show's History and Lore show a different aspect of R+L=J in a medium through D&D's eyes.

Remember, that according to GRRM D&D have already guessed who Jon's Mother is, not only that, he already told them of the ending.

If by deductive reasoning, we accept by faith (on top of him declaring publicly), that GRRM will not deviate from his set origin of who Jon's parents are, I think it's safe to say that D&D already know. Now, as a reader, I admit, I must take another leap of faith that Rhaegar did marry Lyanna. I feel that there are layers and subtle texts showing Jon is legitimate, but it is still a theory, beyond the R+L=J theory.

Putting all these together, by placing a flower (rose?) next to AA forging Lightbringer through NissaNissa's heart and another flower (winter rose?) being held by Ned placing it next to Lyanna's dead body, to me shows D&D's version of their '3 level type of revelation' strategy.

The forging of lightbringer with the R+L=J reference indicates that R+L= Lightbringer is probably true. Then, they (GRRM ? D&D ?) kidnapped Schmendrick before he could post part 3 because he found out and they couldn't let him spread the truth. It is know.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

But Robert would want to remember this battles and war, right? He was rather fond of how good he was at fighting.

Perhaps, because Robert died before the book was completed, the maester saw a chance to add a couple of pages to his book, adding Rhaegar stuff? ;)

Or the book had originally 200 pages and later, 500. 300 of them were only something like

"...and Robert Baratheon smashed Rhaegar's chest with his hammer"

"...and Robert Baratheon smashed Rhaegar's chest with his hammer"

"...and Robert Baratheon smashed Rhaegar's chest with his hammer"

"...and Robert Baratheon smashed Rhaegar's chest with his hammer"

"...and Robert Baratheon smashed Rhaegar's chest with his hammer"

"...and Robert Baratheon smashed Rhaegar's chest with his hammer"

"...and Robert Baratheon smashed Rhaegar's chest with his hammer"

"...and Robert Baratheon smashed Rhaegar's chest with his hammer"

"...and Robert Baratheon smashed Rhaegar's chest with his hammer"

[BearQueen87]

Or the book had originally 200 pages and later, 500. 300 of them were only something like

"...and Robert Baratheon smashed Rhaegar's chest with his hammer"

"...and Robert Baratheon smashed Rhaegar's chest with his hammer"

"...and Robert Baratheon smashed Rhaegar's chest with his hammer"

"...and Robert Baratheon smashed Rhaegar's chest with his hammer"

"...and Robert Baratheon smashed Rhaegar's chest with his hammer"

"...and Robert Baratheon smashed Rhaegar's chest with his hammer"

"...and Robert Baratheon smashed Rhaegar's chest with his hammer"

"...and Robert Baratheon smashed Rhaegar's chest with his hammer"

"...and Robert Baratheon smashed Rhaegar's chest with his hammer"

This pleases King Robert. :)

ETA: another thing I want; hopefully a detailed account of the Trident, like did Rhaegar dismount or not...