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Rhaenys_Targaryen

R+L=J v. 107

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Varys was Aerys spy master before he became king Roberts spy master / master of whispers so his little birds obviously failed to tell him about Jon

Varys isn't completely omniscient. He didn't know about Doran's plans to marry Arianne and Viserys either, nor Quentyn's quest. I think -and this is purely speculation- that Varys is underestimating Dorne's involvement, and Doran's secrecy has contributed to that.

The thing is that Varys can be fooled. After he told Aerys about Rhaegar's real plans for the Tourney, he left KL and had to hide in an isolated tower. Extreme, but if you consider it, it did work. Besides the conception of Jon (that only few people and we, readers, know) no one else knows what happened there. As far as we know, maybe Rhaegar did managed to convince a few Lords to join him into removing Aerys before the Rebellion became a real war and he had to put his plans aside. I'm sure Varys knew (or assumed) that Rhaegar's reasons for hiding were completely political. I'm also sure that, as he knew Rhaegar, he never believed what it was said about him taking Lyanna against his will. But he hasn't able to put two and two together.

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What bastard name does Jon Snow get, if he indeed is the bastard son of Rhaegar and Lyanna? He would presumably have been born at the Tower of Joy, as is referenced by the 'bed of blood' that Ned remembers in AGoT. However, I can find nowhere that actually states if the Tower of Joy is actually in Dorne (making him Jon Sand), or if it is in the Reach (making him Jon Flowers) or in some limbo-land in between the two (making him just Jon?) Could someone clarify it for me?


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What bastard name does Jon Snow get, if he indeed is the bastard son of Rhaegar and Lyanna? He would presumably have been born at the Tower of Joy, as is referenced by the 'bed of blood' that Ned remembers in AGoT. However, I can find nowhere that actually states if the Tower of Joy is actually in Dorne (making him Jon Sand), or if it is in the Reach (making him Jon Flowers) or in some limbo-land in between the two (making him just Jon?) Could someone clarify it for me?

From the App: At the war's end, Lyanna Stark was found dying by her brother Eddard, and by Howland Reed, in the red mountains of Dorne , at the place Rhaegar called the tower of joy.

However, as Jon would not have been raised in Dorne had Rhaegar and Lyanna survived, I don't know that he'd be a Sand. Jon would have been raised in KL.

And of course, many of us believe that Jon is the legit son of R and L (they were married), so had his parents lived he would be Jon Targaryen.

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What bastard name does Jon Snow get, if he indeed is the bastard son of Rhaegar and Lyanna? He would presumably have been born at the Tower of Joy, as is referenced by the 'bed of blood' that Ned remembers in AGoT. However, I can find nowhere that actually states if the Tower of Joy is actually in Dorne (making him Jon Sand), or if it is in the Reach (making him Jon Flowers) or in some limbo-land in between the two (making him just Jon?) Could someone clarify it for me?

We had a big debate a bit back about the location of ToJ and it seems pretty clear that it is in Dorne. But it does not matter for two reasons. First, a bastard is named based on the location of where he is raised, not where he is born. So if a bastard, Jon would be Jon Snow no matter where ToJ is located. But more important, I think the evidence that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married is quite strong, and so Jon's last name would be Targaryen.

ETA: Once again--BQ87 ninja'd me. :ninja:

ETA (part 2): Of course, I know that BQ87 does not really think his name would have been Jon Targaryen, but rather Aemon Targaryen (and I agree, but no need to get into that whole debate).

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What bastard name does Jon Snow get, if he indeed is the bastard son of Rhaegar and Lyanna? He would presumably have been born at the Tower of Joy, as is referenced by the 'bed of blood' that Ned remembers in AGoT. However, I can find nowhere that actually states if the Tower of Joy is actually in Dorne (making him Jon Sand), or if it is in the Reach (making him Jon Flowers) or in some limbo-land in between the two (making him just Jon?) Could someone clarify it for me?

Depends.

If Lyanna dies but Rhaegar survives and takes him with him to KL, he would be Jon Waters.

If Rhaegar dies but Lyanna lives and takes him to the North with her, he's a Snow. If she survives but it's sent to the Silent Sisters and Ned takes care of the child, he's a Snow too.

The bastard name is after the father who take such bastard under his care, not the place they are born. Otherwise, Obara would be Obara Flowers, not Sand. Edric is a son of a Stormlord, hence, he's a Storm, because he provides for him and gave the boy to his brother's care. Mya is a Stone because she's not really acknowledged as such. She's known to be the daughter of Robert, but she's not under her care, hence, he receives the name of her location: Stone.

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We had a big debate a bit back about the location of ToJ and it seems pretty clear that it is in Dorne. But it does not matter for two reasons. First, a bastard is named based on the location of where he is raised, not where he is born. So if a bastard, Jon would be Jon Snow no matter where ToJ is located. But more important, I think the evidence that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married is quite strong, and so Jon's last name would be Targaryen.

ETA: Once again--BQ87 ninja'd me.

How does Westeros view Polygyny? That is assuming that Rhaegar and Lyanna were fully married, while Rhaegar was married to Elia, which to my understanding is not allowed within Westerosi society.

So I guess the questions are: When did Rhaegar and Lyanna get married, and was Rhaegar still married to Elia Martell at the time?

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How does Westeros view Polygyny? That is assuming that Rhaegar and Lyanna were fully married, while Rhaegar was married to Elia, which to my understanding is not allowed within Westerosi society.

So I guess the questions are: When did Rhaegar and Lyanna get married, and was Rhaegar still married to Elia Martell at the time?

First welcome to the Forum and RLJ. Meant to say that in my above post.

Next...Westoers might frown on polygamy but remember that the Targaryen's are the rulers and they are doing things, even up to the Rebellion, that Westeros would dislike even MORE than polygamy...like incest. Aerys II married his sister Rhaella. There is a quote from GRRM that even while having a dragon made is easier to flout tradition--like polygamy and incest--without their dragons it wasn't impossible. Recall that Jorah tells Dany she can take two husbands.

Rhaegar can easily circumvent the Faith of the 7 because 1) the High Septon likes his cushy job and does whatever the King tells him (we have ample evidence for that) and 2) it's never been outlawed either in the north or the south. In fact it's still practiced by Wildlings like Ygon Oldfather who has 17 wives and practices the same religion as the men in the North! And no one from the NW's comments on it.

As to when R and L got married: most likely after R "took" L around the area of Harrnehal. The Isle of Face is right there with plenty of weirwood trees. And we know that wandering septons like Meribald, who are extremely pious, perform marriage ceremonies as part of their wandering septon duties.

:) Yup. But baby steps...lol

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How does Westeros view Polygyny? That is assuming that Rhaegar and Lyanna were fully married, while Rhaegar was married to Elia, which to my understanding is not allowed within Westerosi society.

So I guess the questions are: When did Rhaegar and Lyanna get married, and was Rhaegar still married to Elia Martell at the time?

Well, that is a long discussion that we have gone around and around on over many threads. Let me give you my "cliffs notes" version. Targaryens have engaged in polygamy in the past (Aegon I and Maegor I being the most prominent). There is no evidence that polygamy was outlawed and incest seems to be a bigger problem for the Faith, but that did not stop the Targs from practicing incest over the years. Rhaegar probably remained married to Elia. Some people, including me, believe that after she could have no more children, she agreed to let Rhaegar take a second wife. Rhaegar probably knew a polygamous marriage--in particular one done in secret--would create issues. My personal belief is that he was hiding from many people, including Aerys, at ToJ with Lyanna until the baby was born. I believe that his plan was to come back to KL with Lyanna and the baby. Having the support of Elia and already having a baby with Lyanna might have been enough to force Aerys to accept the marriage and pressure the Faith the keep silent. Some people also think that Rhaegar intended to unseat Aerys, and so as the new king, there would be no one to question the polygamous marriage.

I think an important quote from GRRM is that without dragons, it would be more difficult to practice polygamy. More difficult is not the same thing as impossible. Rhaegar believed he needed a third head of the dragon, and I believe he thought that meant a third legitimate child. Elia could have no more children, so polygamy was really the only choice Rhaegar would have thought was left to him. I believe that Rhaegar felt he had to take the risk and deal with the fallout from the polygamous marriage.

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First and foremost, I would like to thank you all for the warm welcome, and the speedy replies. Although I do believe that R+L=J, it is nice to have a few points cleared up by those who are more experienced regarding this topic. Apologies for not quoting the people who answered me, it would make my post quite long :).


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First and foremost, I would like to thank you all for the warm welcome, and the speedy replies. Although I do believe that R+L=J, it is nice to have a few points cleared up by those who are more experienced regarding this topic. Apologies for not quoting the people who answered me, it would make my post quite long :).

No need to quote another post unless you are responding to something specific in someone's post (and then deleting the irrelevant parts of that post is quite common). We do not always agree around here, but we try to be respectful. Some people avoid this thread because they think we are too dismissive of dissenters--but really we just make people defend their arguments (and some people don't really want to do that--they just want to throw out nonsense and not be challenged too hard). But if you are looking for information about anything related to R+L=J, this the place to be. There are plenty of people ready and willing to try to answer your questions or clarify any issues. Hope you enjoy your time on the boards.

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What bastard name does Jon Snow get, if he indeed is the bastard son of Rhaegar and Lyanna? He would presumably have been born at the Tower of Joy, as is referenced by the 'bed of blood' that Ned remembers in AGoT. However, I can find nowhere that actually states if the Tower of Joy is actually in Dorne (making him Jon Sand), or if it is in the Reach (making him Jon Flowers) or in some limbo-land in between the two (making him just Jon?) Could someone clarify it for me?

His bastard name is 'Snow'. I've yet to see anything specify that bastards have to take the name of where they are born vs where they are raised.

And welcome :D

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How does Westeros view Polygyny? That is assuming that Rhaegar and Lyanna were fully married, while Rhaegar was married to Elia, which to my understanding is not allowed within Westerosi society.

So I guess the questions are: When did Rhaegar and Lyanna get married, and was Rhaegar still married to Elia Martell at the time?

The seven kingdoms do not practice polygamy. Aegon had two sister-wives. Maegor had multiple wives from outside lines. By the time Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna polygamy had not been practiced in the Seven Kingdoms (Westeros south of the wall) in well over two hundred years. When it was practiced it was by kings with dragons.

If their child was conceived in wedlock Rhaegar had a minimum of three months to marry Lyanna. Lyanna's kidnapping was before Robert's rebellion which lasted nearly a year till the sack of King's Landing and Lyanna gave birth a month or thereabouts after (if Jon is her son). They could have married from the time of the kidnapping till nearly a year later minus travel time from the tower of joy to the Trident and from the Trident to King's Landing--roughly 1300 miles.

Elia was Aerys's hostage against Dorne.

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The seven kingdoms do not practice polygamy. Aegon had two sister-wives. Maegor had multiple wives from outside lines. By the time Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna polygamy had not been practiced in the Seven Kingdoms (Westeros south of the wall) in well over two hundred years. When it was practiced it was by kings with dragons.

And yet incest, something that is more abhorrent to Westeros (see: the NW's reaction to Craster--it's not about the number of wives but it's about who his wives ARE) was still practiced by the Targaryen's without the Faith getting in an uproar. And Jaehaerys II (or Aegon V depending on who gave the command) did not have dragons to make that work. So polygamy, the lesser of the two practices, would have worked because the Septon likes his head on his shoulders.

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do we know how the targ wedding ceremony works? i doubt any septon would perform the ceremony for them, when it breaks so many laws


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do we know how the targ wedding ceremony works? i doubt any septon would perform the ceremony for them, when it breaks so many laws

We know that the Valryians had their own wedding traditions, something to do with fire IIRC. But we also know that Aegon made peace with the Faith during the conquest and that peace seems to have lasted (sorta). And didn't Aegon I convert to the Faith of the 7...?? (I could be wrong on that but if I'm not then the Targs married in the Faith of the 7 traditions).

Also, I don't think there is a legal law against incest. It's a cultural and religious one. And there is no law--legal or religious law--against polygamy to my knowledge.

ETA from the SSM

Did Aegon Targaryen convert to the Faith as a political maneuver?]

GRRM: yes

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Month/2008/07/

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do we know how the targ wedding ceremony works? i doubt any septon would perform the ceremony for them, when it breaks so many laws

If I'm remembering correctly, Visenya Targaryan performed a ceremony of "fire and blood" to marry her son to his second wife when the Faith refused their marriage.

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well he did convert, but any septon that would wed two people incestously would probably be thrown out of the faith


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well he did convert, but any septon that would wed two people incestously would probably be thrown out of the faith

Not if the Rulers (the Targs) were the couple in question. I'm fairly certain the High Septon is the one marrying the Targaryen rulers so there is no one to throw him out. The Faith does what the Ruler says. That's why the High Sparrow is such a problem for Cersei. She's used to getting her way with the Faith who just fall in line with the Rulers.

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well there was that one faith militant revolt that was a big problem. if the high spparow supports aegon and is powerfull enough he could denounce the marriage which would make jon a bastard again


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well he did convert, but any septon that would wed two people incestously would probably be thrown out of the faith

There's always the possibility that they were married in the tradition of the Old Gods. Only a Weirwood tree would be required.

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