Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Rhaenys_Targaryen

R+L=J v. 107

Recommended Posts

well there was that one faith militant revolt that was a big problem. if the high spparow supports aegon and is powerfull enough he could denounce the marriage which would make jon a bastard again

The First Faith Militant revolt was super long ago. Jaehaerys I put a stop to it, and he was what...the 4th Targaryen king? And of course, I suspect R and L were married in both tradtitons and the HS has no say over the Northern religion.

Also, why do you suspect that the High Sparrow is going to find out about Jon's legitimacy? I don't think Aegon is going to live long enough to even met Jon and realize that Jon is the real last son of Rhaegar Targaryen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's always the possibility that they were married in the tradition of the Old Gods. Only a Weirwood tree would be required.

that would be quite interesting but i doubt rhaegar would consent to it

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

beccause Howland reed=high spparow duhhhh (im just kidding)


but i doubt jon could gain much support without sending the ravens out


and the high sparrow denouncing the marraige could happen regardless of who he supports


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

that would be quite interesting but i doubt rhaegar would consent to it

...why? It's actually perfectly in line with what he wants. Lyanna would for sure demand it and it's a blending of their two traditions: the "ice" of the Northern religions and the "fire" of the South/Faith of the 7. And if Lyanna demanded it then Rhaegar would consent because 1) love and 2) he needs his third dragon head and TPTWP from Lyanna. And these are her requests.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

beccause Howland reed=high spparow duhhhh (im just kidding)

but i doubt jon could gain much support without sending the ravens out

and the high sparrow denouncing the marraige could happen regardless of who he supports

Well I don't think Jon is going to make a play for the throne. That's not who Jon is. Jon will be elected to the Throne at the series end via Great Council and not because he's the son of Rhaegar but because of his role in the War for the Dawn. That's my theory.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

that would be quite interesting but i doubt rhaegar would consent to it

We also have an example in the books where a marriage ceremony was performed in front of a Heart Tree by a Septon (Ramsay and Donella Hornwood). We have also been introduced to a wandering septon in the Riverlands (Meribald) who has been doing his thing for 40 years.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

well my theory is that when all dragons die (2nd dance maybe?) then in some fashion the other will die, it dosent have to be all of them fall to the floor at the exact same time but it would be more like melisandre and her throwing the things into the fire where everyone will say it was because of the dragons dieing but it will really be something else jon or someone does


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We also have an example in the books where a marriage ceremony was performed in front of a Heart Tree by a Septon (Ramsay and Donella Hornwood). We have also been introduced to a wandering septon in the Riverlands (Meribald) who has been doing his thing for 40 years.

Bless that wandering Septon. He totally knows something.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And yet incest, something that is more abhorrent to Westeros (see: the NW's reaction to Craster--it's not about the number of wives but it's about who his wives ARE) was still practiced by the Targaryen's without the Faith getting in an uproar. And Jaehaerys II (or Aegon V depending on who gave the command) did not have dragons to make that work. So polygamy, the lesser of the two practices, would have worked because the Septon likes his head on his shoulders.

North of the wall is not part of the Seven Kingdoms. Incest=/=polygamy. Incestuous marriages between Targaryens were practiced throughout their rule. Polygamy had not been, Greater or lesser sins are not the issue, what was practiced was. Incest was. Polygamy was not.

The idea of Targaryens using force or threat of force on members of the faith to impose its will is somewhat complicated. The faith did not have a military arm. However, all great lords (minus the North) followed the faith of the seven. The majority of the Seven Kingdoms followed the faith of the seven. The Targaryens were far from the only source of force or the threat of force the faith faced. The Targaryens, the great lords, and the people could all bring pressure on the faith... To keep his head on his shoulders, a septon could not push the Targaryens. Lords, or people too far.

If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want, and people are less likely to object.

http://www.westeros.org/citadel/ssm/entry/2997

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The point is there was a precedent for polygamy. Doesn't matter whether it was 200 years ago or whatever. Precedent is precedent and nothing in the text suggests that polygamy is illegal. So if Rhaegar and Lyanna did get married then that marriage would be valid.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The point is there was a precedent for polygamy. Doesn't matter whether it was 200 years ago or whatever. Precedent is precedent and nothing in the text suggests that polygamy is illegal. So if Rhaegar and Lyanna did get married then that marriage would be valid.

Martin even said that polygamy was never outlawed, it simply fell out of practice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

North of the wall is not part of the Seven Kingdoms. Incest=/=polygamy. Incestuous marriages between Targaryens were practiced throughout their rule. Polygamy had not been, Greater or lesser sins are not the issue, what was practiced was. Incest was. Polygamy was not.

The idea of Targaryens using force or threat of force on members of the faith to impose its will is somewhat complicated. The faith did not have a military arm. However, all great lords (minus the North) followed the faith of the seven. The majority of the Seven Kingdoms followed the faith of the seven. The Targaryens were far from the only source of force or the threat of force the faith faced. The Targaryens, the great lords, and the people could all bring pressure on the faith... To keep his head on his shoulders, a septon could not push the Targaryens. Lords, or people too far.

If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want, and people are less likely to object.

http://www.westeros.org/citadel/ssm/entry/2997

Politically different, culturally similar. No one objects to Ygon Oldfather having 17 wives. But they do object to Craster marrying his daughters. Conclusion? The sensibilities of the people in Westeros--from all walks of life since the NW is made up of northerns and southroners-- balk at incest not at polygamy. Yet the Targareny's practiced both with some measure of freedom polygamy less so over the years. And to be fair polygamy is POLITICALLY trickier because of inheritance. What happens if you have two sons born at the same time?

And you left out the rest of that SSM quote

Maegor the Cruel has multiple wives, from lines outside his own, so there was and is precedent. However, the extent to which the Targaryen kings could defy convention, the Faith, and the opinions of the other lords decreased markedly after they no longer had dragons.

Decreased markedly = / = impossible and stopped altogether.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

do we know how the targ wedding ceremony works? i doubt any septon would perform the ceremony for them, when it breaks so many laws

well he did convert, but any septon that would wed two people incestously would probably be thrown out of the faith

well there was that one faith militant revolt that was a big problem. if the high spparow supports aegon and is powerfull enough he could denounce the marriage which would make jon a bastard again

Answering these all in one go.

The quotes we have on Valyrian wedding customs are only this one:

No septon agree to officiate the ceremony, which is why Visenya did it in the old Valyrian fashion without King Aenys' leave.

This doesn't really tell us how it is done, so we can't tell whether there is fire involved or anything. Do take note on how the ceremony was only performed because no septon of the Faith wanted to perform a ceremony.

As the septons and performing incestous marriages:

There were many incestous marriages between Targaryens over the 300 years they ruled. It can be safely assumed that septons were not thrown out of the faith because they married a brother to a sister.

As to the Faith Millitant:

The Faith indeed rebelled because King Aenys I married his daughter to his son. They opposed this incestous marriage, and tried to end the dynasty, something in which they failed miserably. After the Faith Millitant rebellion was over, plenty of incestous marriages occured, so it seems that an agreement was reached on that subject (think about the marriages of Jaehaerys/Alysanne, Aegon/Helaena, Baelor/Daena, Aegon/Naerys, Aerys/Rhaella)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

well if it is a marriage of fire and blood or infront of a hearth tree nobody could really do anything about it, this makes alot more sense to me right now. I have thought about the targ ceremony, the last few targ mothers died from childbirth, maybe it has to do with burning the mother, causing her death in childbirth


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The point is there was a precedent for polygamy. Doesn't matter whether it was 200 years ago or whatever. Precedent is precedent and nothing in the text suggests that polygamy is illegal. So if Rhaegar and Lyanna did get married then that marriage would be valid.

"Precedent" is a legal term. There are no "legal" marriages in the seven kingdoms. In the Seven Kingdoms a marriage is legally valid if a religion holds it to be valid. Nothing in the text suggests polygamy is practiced in the Seven Kingdoms.

Politically different, culturally similar. No one objects to Ygon Oldfather having 17 wives. But they do object to Craster marrying his daughters. Conclusion? The sensibilities of the people in Westeros--from all walks of life since the NW is made up of northerns and southroners-- balk at incest not at polygamy. Yet the Targareny's practiced both with some measure of freedom polygamy less so over the years. And to be fair polygamy is POLITICALLY trickier because of inheritance. What happens if you have two sons born at the same time?

And you left out the rest of that SSM quote

Decreased markedly = / = impossible and stopped altogether.

No one objects to Kahl Jommo's having four wives. Conclusion polygamy is practiced outside of the Seven Kingdoms. Craster marrying his daughters was balked at by the wildings as well.

The Targaryens practiced incest from their arrival through king Aerys. The Targaryens stopped practicing polygamy after Maegor--two hundred and some odd years ago.

Decreased markedly = / = impossible and stopped altogether.

Their ability to defy decreased markedly... the practice of polygamy stopped altogether. Marrying brother to sister continued.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

decreasd markedly bassicly means that the faith won't allow it

There's a difference between asking permission and asking forgiveness. If Rhaegar shows up in KL with a new wife and child and claims that he has married her (by whatever means) and the child is legitimate, then it's going to be much more difficult for the Faith to do anything at all about it than if he asked the Faith's permission beforehand.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's a difference between asking permission and asking forgiveness.

Yes... the difference is ability

If one has ability, one does not need permission. If one does not, one need not ask for forgiveness--there is nothing to forgive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes... the difference is ability

If one has ability, one does not need permission. If one does not, one need not ask for forgiveness--there is nothing to forgive.

Rhaegar had the ability to marry Lyanna. The only issue is how it would be received when he got there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

well if it is a marriage of fire and blood or infront of a hearth tree nobody could really do anything about it, this makes alot more sense to me right now. I have thought about the targ ceremony, the last few targ mothers died from childbirth, maybe it has to do with burning the mother, causing her death in childbirth

What? Burning the mother? Where are you getting that idea from?

Rhaella died in childbirth, due to unknown complications, possibly age-related (she was in her forties when giving birth to Daenerys). We know of no other Targaryen women, IIRC, who died in childbirth.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×