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Rhaenys_Targaryen

R+L=J v. 107

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I'm pretty sure Maege was never married despite her having daughters. You don't technically need one for the other.

Either the children are trueborn, or legitimizes bastards..

The fact that no one is making trouble about Dacey being so close to Robb, and Aly having a rather high position with Stannis, and Lyanna doesn't get the whole "she's disrespectful because she's a bastard" when writing her reply to Stannis, would suggest that the children are trueborn.

dosne't she have daughters? she got married matrilenially only for house mormont because they were in danger of extinction and i believe they will continue to do so unitl a male is born

Jeor had a son, though, by the time Maege's eldest daughter was born. Maege's youngest daughter was born around the time that Jorah left in exile. So her reasons for having children do not include "the line is going extinct".

the she bear talks about how the women of bear isle are strong because they need to protect from wildling raids while the men are away

Mormont women have been taught how to fight because of Ironborn raiders, it has got nothing to do with wildlings, who wouldn't get to Bear Island, as they wouldn't be crossing the sea ;)

Also every single daughter bears the name MORMONT. Not the name of a husband.

Indeed. Though it might be like Lady Waynwood (whose children have her name, not her husbands), to keep the seat in the family.

Though the fact alone that the children have a highborn last name, and not a bastard name, should suggest that they are trueborn.

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This topic is on the R+L=J topic.



Has anyone ever considered the R might not be Rheagar the Targ....



It could also be Robert Baratheon.



That might add a nice twist;



- It would make John Snow the legitimate heir to the Throne, since Tommen is a Lannister


- It does fit the picture where all Robert B's bastards have dark hair and dark eyes


- I would definitely explain why Ned would promise Lyana to take care of the boy



I know it would rule out a lot of story lines (like the ice dragon) that came out of the R+L=J theory but it might be worth considering.


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This topic is on the R+L=J topic.

Has anyone ever considered the R might not be Rheagar the Targ....

It could also be Robert Baratheon.

That might add a nice twist;

- It would make John Snow the legitimate heir to the Throne, since Tommen is a Lannister

- It does fit the picture where all Robert B's bastards have dark hair and dark eyes

- I would definitely explain why Ned would promise Lyana to take care of the boy

I know it would rule out a lot of story lines (like the ice dragon) that came out of the R+L=J theory but it might be worth considering.

The people who made the R+L=J topic made the topic with R=Rhaegar ;)

As to Robert, there are a few problems with that theory:

1) the war itself had lasted close to a year. In addition, Lyanna had been prior to the start of the war, and was only discovered after the war was over. She was thus missing even longer. For Robert to impregnate Lyanna before Rhaegar disappeared with her, the child would have been born halfway through the war, and thus have been a lot older at wars end.

2) Robert's bastards have the black coal hair. Jon has dark brown hair. Robert's bastards have blue eyes, Jon has dark grey eyes. So no, the description does not match.

3) Legitimacy of the throne depends on whether you feel Robert was legally entitled to the throne. ;) Dany, for example, would question Robert's reign, and the reign of all the heirs he could provide.

4) Why wouldn't Ned tell Robert that he has a son? That would just be weird.. Also, why would Jon being Robert's explain why Ned would take care of the boy? Lyanna, Jon's mother, is Ned's sister, whom he loved very much. It would be natural to want to take care of her child. If Robert was the father, Ned would have told him.

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well i thought about wildling because i doubt the ironborn are allowed to raid when under the IT and it has been like that for 300 years


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Either the children are trueborn, or legitimizes bastards..

The fact that no one is making trouble about Dacey being so close to Robb, and Aly having a rather high position with Stannis, and Lyanna doesn't get the whole "she's disrespectful because she's a bastard" when writing her reply to Stannis, would suggest that the children are trueborn.

Jeor had a son, though, by the time Maege's eldest daughter was born. Maege's youngest daughter was born around the time that Jorah left in exile. So her reasons for having children do not include "the line is going extinct".

Mormont women have been taught how to fight because of Ironborn raiders, it has got nothing to do with wildlings, who wouldn't get to Bear Island, as they wouldn't be crossing the sea ;)

Indeed. Though it might be like Lady Waynwood (whose children have her name, not her husbands), to keep the seat in the family.

Though the fact alone that the children have a highborn last name, and not a bastard name, should suggest that they are trueborn.

And sadly, until SWoW finally comes out, we aren't going to know definitively what the internal politics of the North was regarding women.

But whether it was other parts of the North fearing Wildling raids, or BI fearing the IB, from a purely pragmatic, cultural standpoint, I don't think it's outside the possibility that northern women might have been more martial than the rest of Westeros and Dorne.

It would be a bit like the American frontier was where the roles of women changed.

Other observations:

~ With Robb as king, the north may have gone back to observing their own traditions.

- No one else in the North seemed to take issue with Ned raising Jon with the exception of Cat.

- Not knowing anymore about Lady Dustin, she nevertheless appears to be with Roosevelt and the other men on an equal footing and representative of her House.

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well i thought about wildling because i doubt the ironborn are allowed to raid when under the IT and it has been like that for 300 years

That hasn't stopped the Iron Born from raiding - Dagon Greyjoy?

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Varys isn't completely omniscient. He didn't know about Doran's plans to marry Arianne and Viserys either, nor Quentyn's quest. I think -and this is purely speculation- that Varys is underestimating Dorne's involvement, and Doran's secrecy has contributed to that.

The thing is that Varys can be fooled. After he told Aerys about Rhaegar's real plans for the Tourney, he left KL and had to hide in an isolated tower. Extreme, but if you consider it, it did work. Besides the conception of Jon (that only few people and we, readers, know) no one else knows what happened there. As far as we know, maybe Rhaegar did managed to convince a few Lords to join him into removing Aerys before the Rebellion became a real war and he had to put his plans aside. I'm sure Varys knew (or assumed) that Rhaegar's reasons for hiding were completely political. I'm also sure that, as he knew Rhaegar, he never believed what it was said about him taking Lyanna against his will. But he hasn't able to put two and two together.

. Hmm i wonder what isolated tower Varys hid in ? The tower of joy perhaps ?

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And sadly, until SWoW finally comes out, we aren't going to know definitively what the internal politics of the North was regarding women.

But whether it was other parts of the North fearing Wildling raids, or BI fearing the IB, from a purely pragmatic, cultural standpoint, I don't think it's outside the possibility that northern women might have been more martial than the rest of Westeros and Dorne.

It would be a bit like the American frontier was where the roles of women changed.

Other observations:

~ With Robb as king, the north may have gone back to observing their own traditions.

- No one else in the North seemed to take issue with Ned raising Jon with the exception of Cat.

- Not knowing anymore about Lady Dustin, she nevertheless appears to be with Roosevelt and the other men on an equal footing and representative of her House.

Indeed, learning about the politics in the north, and the rest of Westeros as well, for that matter (in the case where a female is the last of the surviving line, and is thus the only one left to continue the house) should be very interesting.

. Hmm i wonder what isolated tower Varys hid in ? The tower of joy perhaps ?

When?

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There's always the possibility that they were married in the tradition of the Old Gods. Only a Weirwood tree would be required.

Only if the Old Gods' religion as practiced in the North allows polygamy - and there's no evidence of that.

It's also worth noting that the only actual Old Gods' marriage ceremony we saw seemed to require the presence of a male father figure or substitute to officially 'give the bride' - a father figure Lyanna would have lacked, having run away with Rhaegar.

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Only if the Old Gods' religion as practiced in the North allows polygamy - and there's no evidence of that.

It's also worth noting that the only actual Old Gods' marriage ceremony we saw seemed to require the presence of a male father figure or substitute to officially 'give the bride' - a father figure Lyanna would have lacked, having run away with Rhaegar.

There were at least two potential substitutes present, though.

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This topic is on the R+L=J topic.

Has anyone ever considered the R might not be Rheagar the Targ....

It could also be Robert Baratheon.

That might add a nice twist;

- It would make John Snow the legitimate heir to the Throne, since Tommen is a Lannister

- It does fit the picture where all Robert B's bastards have dark hair and dark eyes

- I would definitely explain why Ned would promise Lyana to take care of the boy

I know it would rule out a lot of story lines (like the ice dragon) that came out of the R+L=J theory but it might be worth considering.

For all the reasons Rhaenys states, it can't work.

Only if the Old Gods' religion as practiced in the North allows polygamy - and there's no evidence of that.

It's also worth noting that the only actual Old Gods' marriage ceremony we saw seemed to require the presence of a male father figure or substitute to officially 'give the bride' - a father figure Lyanna would have lacked, having run away with Rhaegar.

Dayne and Whent spring to mind.

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For all the reasons Rhaenys states, it can't work.

Unless there's a TARDIS involved XD

Dayne and Whent spring to mind.

Yeah, we know that a father-figure is not needed...just a person with authority.

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Unless there's a TARDIS involved XD

Yeah, we know that a father-figure is not needed...just a person with authority.

Would it mean that if two people said the words before weirwood without such a person, only with witnesses, the vow would be invalid? I highly doubt it. Who was that figure of authority that gave Lady Hornwood to Ramsay? To my best recollection, no such was mentioned.

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Yeah, we know that a father-figure is not needed...just a person with authority.

Joffery giving away Sansa, for instance. He's not her actual father or a father-figure, but the idea is that as King he's "father" to the realm and therefore as the authority to give her away to Tyrion. Theon is not "Arya's" father nor father-figure but he can act as a "Prince" of Winterfell.

So 2 members of the KG, who have authority given to them by either the King or the Heir Apparent, both from Houses that are wealthy and powerful in their own right...yeah, they work.

Would it mean that if two people said the words before weirwood without such a person, only with witnesses, the vow would be invalid? I highly doubt it. Who was that figure of authority that gave Lady Hornwood to Ramsay? To my best recollection, no such was mentioned.

That's a good point too. In the Theon example I gave above, he's not really a person of authority, especially since he's being forced to play the part in order to save his own skin (literally!). But the marriage of fArya and Ramsey isn't invalid just because Theon is playing a role.

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Would it mean that if two people said the words before weirwood without such a person, only with witnesses, the vow would be invalid? I highly doubt it. Who was that figure of authority that gave Lady Hornwood to Ramsay? To my best recollection, no such was mentioned.

Witnesses are necessary. No matter what the ceremony is like, witnesses are what make it 'official'.

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The mormonts are an special case, during the time of the books.

First, women in the North probably need to learn how to defend themselves in case of wildlings when the husbands are out hunting, or warring. I'm sure that's not uncommon for them. With that in mind, if such men died, people know that strong women are left in charge. While Southern women learn to sew and dance, Northern women know how to use an axe and fight, something that is more useful and needed up there. Yet, it's not the rule, otherwise, Lyanna, Sansa and Arya would be all warriors. Lyanna was because she wanted to, not because it was expected of her. I suppose that rule doesn't apply to Winterfell as it's the main stronghold there and they don't need to protect themselves.

In the case of the Mormonts, Jorah was meant to be the Lord of BI. And after he got married, Jeor gave up his claims and Maege never married, expecting Jorah would have male sons, which he didn't. As they were left without a male ruler, Maege, being the oldest, had to take charge, and her daughters, inherited the title.

I agree with Alia of the knife and BearQueen87 that the Mormonts represent a more matriarchal past that was probably generalized in the North, not just specific to Bear Island. After all, as someone remarked, Bear Island was not unique in all the North in being attacked by wildlings and ironborn - they attacked all over the North. So if such attacks were a justification for women training to arms, it would have been a justification everywhere in the North - not just Bear Island.

IMO, if we look at Bear Island as a model of the old North, what we see is a less patriarchal and legitimacy-obsessed culture, in which bastardy is not such a horror and an absolute social disqualifier as it is among the Southrons - not even the bastards borne of a noblewoman, which is the ultimate social sin a lady can commit in the South. Proof? In the South we've heard of noblewomen who got illicitly pregnant and were cast out by their family to join the Silent Sisters.

In contrast, Maege got pregnant and had her kids while Jorah was still Lord of Bear Island and Maege had no prospect of inheriting (we know this because Dacey is older than Jon, and Jorah was only exiled after Ned was settled in Winterfell as lord of the manor). Those kids have no husband's name. So either Maege married a man so meek that he gave up his right to pass along his family name even though there was no need for him to do this (because Jorah was the one in charge of passing on the Mormont name, not Maege), OR Maege casually bore six bastards and Jorah and Jeor had no problem raising those kids as Mormonts, instead of casting Maege out as a big giant ho and a disgrace to the family. Nor, when Maege did take the rule of Bear Island, do we hear a peep about how her subjects rebelled and rejected her as a slut unfit to rule. IMO, that shows a significant difference in the way Old Northern society regards the freedom of women and their sexuality.

There's also Alysane Mormont, the current heir. We know for a fact that the two children she bore are bastards - she declares it proudly. And her mother Maege did not demand she engage in a hasty shotgun marriage to conceal her indiscretion, nor did she cast her out to join the Silent Sisters. And again, Alysane's subjects, as far as we know, accept her readily as their ruler despite behavior that would get a Southron woman anathemized. IMO, that shows that the attitude toward legitimacy and women's freedom was probably very different in the old North.

Why am I bringing this up? Lyanna wanted to be a warrior woman. Where did such an idea enter her head? Her father Rickard was canonically invested in being a high class Southron...where men are Real Men and women are Real Ladies Who Embroider and Save It For the Marriage Bed. I'd guess that the likeliest role-model for Lyanna would've been Maege Mormont, who DID train as a warrior and was respectable in spite of it. They were close in age, and there's some evidence they were friends - she named one of her daughters Lyanna. IMO, Lyanna longed for the older, freer Northern ways that Rickard was determined to stifle under chauvinist Southron norms. And if she emulated Maege in her warrior ways, why wouldn't she want to emulate her in other ways - including her freedom of choice in men, and her unashamed acceptance of a woman's right to take a lover outside patriarchally supervised marriage and NOT be stoned for it?

To me, that seems more likely than the idea that Lyanna was unconventional enough to defy her father and learn warrior ways, AND daring enough to defy his patriarchal choice of husband for her - AND at the same time prissy enough to insist on a polygamous wedding that is alien to her own religion before she would consent to take the man she wants as a lover.

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Would it mean that if two people said the words before weirwood without such a person, only with witnesses, the vow would be invalid? I highly doubt it. Who was that figure of authority that gave Lady Hornwood to Ramsay? To my best recollection, no such was mentioned.

The Hornwood marriage probably would not have held up under normal circumstances, since it was forced. Robb just had other things on his mind.

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Why am I bringing this up? Lyanna wanted to be a warrior woman. Where did such an idea enter her head? Her father Rickard was canonically invested in being a high class Southron...where men are Real Men and women are Real Ladies Who Embroider and Save It For the Marriage Bed. I'd guess that the likeliest role-model for Lyanna would've been Maege Mormont, who DID train as a warrior and was respectable in spite of it. They were close in age, and there's some evidence they were friends - she named one of her daughters Lyanna. IMO, Lyanna longed for the older, freer Northern ways that Rickard was determined to stifle under chauvinist Southron norms. And if she emulated Maege in her warrior ways, why wouldn't she want to emulate her in other ways - including her freedom of choice in men, and her unashamed acceptance of a woman's right to take a lover outside patriarchal supervision and NOT be stoned for it?

To me, that seems more likely than the idea that Lyanna was unconventional enough to defy her father and learn warrior ways, AND daring enough to defy his patriarchal choice of husband for her - AND at the same time prissy enough to insist on a polygamous wedding that is alien to her own religion before she would consent to take the man she wants as a lover.

I knew where you were going with this when I started reading....lol

Ok, so I agree that Lyanna would emulate the Mormont women as warriors. We know that she would have wielded a sword if Rickard Stark hadn't put his foot down. We know--well, we highly suspect--that she was the KotLT and was skilled enough to take down several of the squires during the tourney. And, of course, prior to that we know that she defended the weak (Mr. Howland Reed) in a very knight-like manner. So yes, she's got that liberated Northwoman feel to her.

However, I don't know that there is evidence that she had "unashamed acceptance of a woman's right to take a lover outside patriarchal supervision and NOT be stoned for it" She was still a romantic (crying at Rhaegar's song like Southron women also did), she still thought that love was sweet (even if can't change a man's nature) and Lyanna, who was by all accounts extraordinarily beautiful, never (so far as we know) took a lover for herself. Had she truly been this liberated, bra-burning type, she would have been engaging in illicit affairs a la Brandon. So there is some part of her that "waits for the marriage bed."

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I agree with Alia of the knife and BearQueen87 that the Mormonts represent a more matriarchal past that was probably generalized in the North, not just specific to Bear Island. After all, as someone remarked, Bear Island was not unique in all the North in being attacked by wildlings and ironborn - they attacked all over the North. So if such attacks were a justification for women training to arms, it would have been a justification everywhere in the North - not just Bear Island.

IMO, if we look at Bear Island as a model of the old North, what we see is a less patriarchal and legitimacy-obsessed culture, in which bastardy is not such a horror and an absolute social disqualifier as it is among the Southrons - not even the bastards borne of a noblewoman, which is the ultimate social sin a lady can commit in the South. Proof? In the South we've heard of noblewomen who got illicitly pregnant and were cast out by their family to join the Silent Sisters.

In contrast, Maege got pregnant and had her kids while Jorah was still Lord of Bear Island and Maege had no prospect of inheriting (we know this because Dacey is older than Jon, and Jorah was only exiled after Ned was settled in Winterfell as lord of the manor). Those kids have no husband's name. So either Maege married a man so meek that he gave up his right to pass along his family name even though there was no need for him to do this (because Jorah was the one in charge of passing on the Mormont name, not Maege), OR Maege casually bore six bastards and Jorah and Jeor had no problem raising those kids as Mormonts, instead of casting Maege out as a big giant ho and a disgrace to the family. Nor, when Maege did take the rule of Bear Island, do we hear a peep about how her subjects rebelled and rejected her as a slut unfit to rule. IMO, that shows a significant difference in the way Old Northern society regards the freedom of women and their sexuality.

There's also Alysane Mormont, the current heir. We know for a fact that the two children she bore are bastards - she declares it proudly. And her mother Maege did not demand she engage in a hasty shotgun marriage to conceal her indiscretion, nor did she cast her out to join the Silent Sisters. And again, Alysane's subjects, as far as we know, accept her readily as their ruler despite behavior that would get a Southron woman anathemized. IMO, that shows that the attitude toward legitimacy and women's freedom was probably very different in the old North.

Why am I bringing this up? Lyanna wanted to be a warrior woman. Where did such an idea enter her head? Her father Rickard was canonically invested in being a high class Southron...where men are Real Men and women are Real Ladies Who Embroider and Save It For the Marriage Bed. I'd guess that the likeliest role-model for Lyanna would've been Maege Mormont, who DID train as a warrior and was respectable in spite of it. They were close in age, and there's some evidence they were friends - she named one of her daughters Lyanna. IMO, Lyanna longed for the older, freer Northern ways that Rickard was determined to stifle under chauvinist Southron norms. And if she emulated Maege in her warrior ways, why wouldn't she want to emulate her in other ways - including her freedom of choice in men, and her unashamed acceptance of a woman's right to take a lover outside patriarchally supervised marriage and NOT be stoned for it?

To me, that seems more likely than the idea that Lyanna was unconventional enough to defy her father and learn warrior ways, AND daring enough to defy his patriarchal choice of husband for her - AND at the same time prissy enough to insist on a polygamous wedding that is alien to her own religion before she would consent to take the man she wants as a lover.

Wow. That's a LOT of assumption based on very little evidence.

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I knew where you were going with this when I started reading....lol

I knew you would. ;)

Ok, so I agree that Lyanna would emulate the Mormont women as warriors. We know that she would have wielded a sword if Rickard Stark hadn't put his foot down. We know--well, we highly suspect--that she was the KotLT and was skilled enough to take down several of the squires during the tourney. And, of course, prior to that we know that she defended the weak (Mr. Howland Reed) in a very knight-like manner. So yes, she's got that liberated Northwoman feel to her.

However, I don't know that there is evidence that she had "unashamed acceptance of a woman's right to take a lover outside patriarchal supervision and NOT be stoned for it?" She was still a romantic (crying at Rhaegar's song), she still thought that love was sweet (even if can't change a man's nature) and Lyanna, who was by all accounts extraordinarily beautiful, never (so far as we know) took a lover for herself. Had she truly been this liberated, bra-burning type, she would have been engaging in illicit affairs a la Brandon. So there is some part of her that "waits for the marriage bed."

But see, in medieval times (which the Westerosi world emulates), romantic love was not considered a natural ally of marriage - in fact, it was often considered its opposite. A medieval treatise on courtly love, De Amore, says: "love can have no place between husband and wife." A marriage in medieval times was a political negotiation for breeding purposes. Romantic love - the spark that strikes, Cupid's arrow, passion that conquers all - tended to happen outside the bonds of matrimony, and often as an enemy of marriage. Look at the story of Lancelot and Guenevere. Or Tristan and Iseult. IRL, the love of Dante for Beatrice. Petrarch for Laura. Abelard and Heloise (shudder).

So IMO, the indisputable fact that Lyanna was romantically moved by Rhaegar's song does not necessarily mean that she MUST have been moved to marry him. It simply may mean that she was moved to take him as a lover - as most of those medieval romantic songs were actually about.

As to the idea of Lyanna engaging in illicit affairs a la Brandon - not possible. Maege's father might have allowed it - Rickard definitely would NOT. Rickard emulates the Southron lords - and a Southron lord's response to his daughter smirching her virtue is to marry her off to the first noble willing to accept 'used merchandise', or send her to the Silent Sisters. We saw that Lyanna was not prepared to openly defy her father. Her tactic was to conceal her defiance of his rules from him and be - publicly - a perfect Southern lady. Which included reluctantly accepting the betrothal with Robert her father arranged for her, for a marriage she anticipates is not going to be a very happy one, even under the low standards for Westerosi marriage. This presumably includes the offering up of an intact virginity. Lyanna, as far as we know, has no one to learn the ins and out of how to have an illicit sex life while hiding it from father and husband. Maege had no need to hide and deceive. And any woman with a scrap of sense knows that to maintain such an illicit sex life in patriarchal Westeros is damned dangerous.

IMO, Lyanna wouldn't engage in an affair unless she wanted it bad enough to risk everything she's been unwilling to risk till then. And IMO, the fact that a woman may believe she has a right to take a lover does NOT mean she's immune to the possibility of romantic love. I think it's likely that Lyanna's first lover was indeed Rhaegar - that she may have believed in a woman's right to take a lover, but that up till then she had not wanted to badly enough to potentially wreck her "respectable Southron Lady" disguise by doing so. She may not have anticipated that she ever would want to...hence her agreement to the betrothal with Robert, when we know that even a Southron lady has the option to turn down a betrothal.

Meeting Rhaegar DID make her willing to toss the whole "betrothed respectable obedient daughter" guise aside. It was obviously a huge emotional upheaval. So when she's willing to throw aside everything her world counts as respectable to run away with the prince, it seems to me bizarre that she would insist on 'respectably' getting married before becoming his lover - that she would demand a polygamous marriage that is alien to her religion and her culture, when what she's already determined to do by running away with him is beyond respectable by the society she was brought up in - AND when marriage is unnecessary under the Mormont 'warrior woman' she has emulated. Either way, imagining her insisting on a marriage makes no sense to me.

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