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Rhaenys_Targaryen

R+L=J v. 107

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Indeed, learning about the politics in the north, and the rest of Westeros as well, for that matter (in the case where a female is the last of the surviving line, and is thus the only one left to continue the house) should be very interesting.

When?

. I think it was Jon conn's red beard who said Varys told Aerys about something Rhaegar was planning and said Varys had to hide out in an isolated tower so i mused about wether or not it could have been the tower of joy i can not remember reading anywhere that Varys had to hide away .

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As to the idea of Lyanna engaging in illicit affairs a la Brandon - not possible. Maege's father might have allowed it - Rickard definitely would NOT. Rickard emulates the Southron lords - and a Southron lord's response to his daughter smirching her virtue is to marry her off to the first noble willing to accept 'used merchandise', or send her to the Silent Sisters. We saw that Lyanna was not prepared to openly defy her father. Her tactic was to conceal her defiance of his rules from him and be - publicly - a perfect Southern lady. Which included reluctantly accepting the betrothal with Robert her father arranged for her, for a marriage she anticipates is not going to be a very happy one, even under the low standards for Westerosi marriage. This presumably includes the offering up of an intact virginity. Lyanna, as far as we know, has no one to learn the ins and out of how to have an illicit sex life while hiding it from father and husband. Maege had no need to hide and deceive. And any woman with a scrap of sense knows that to maintain such an illicit sex life in patriarchal Westeros is damned dangerous.

IMO, Lyanna wouldn't engage in an affair unless she wanted it bad enough to risk everything she's been unwilling to risk till then. And IMO, the fact that a woman may believe she has a right to take a lover does NOT mean she's immune to the possibility of romantic love. I think it's likely that Lyanna's first lover was indeed Rhaegar - that she may have believed in a woman's right to take a lover, but that up till then she had not wanted to badly enough to potentially wreck her "respectable Southron Lady" disguise by doing so. She may not have anticipated that she ever would want to...hence her agreement to the betrothal with Robert, when we know that even a Southron lady has the option to turn down a betrothal.

i agree that Lyanna's first lover was most likely Rhaegar. However, while in this historical setting, love and marriage (and sex) don't go hand in hand--I mean...just look at almost every relationship in ASOIAF--Lyanna might have been moved to marry Rhaegar not only out of love but because they fully intended to have a child, if not more. The Mormont's seem okay with bastards as heirs but the stigma of bastardy is still apparent in the North. Roose doesn't make Ramsey his heir until after Ramsey proves himself, not upon Domeric's death. Robb only makes Jon his heir after Bran and Rickon are presumed dead and they seem to have no alternative. So should Lyanna conceive and bear Rhaegar a son, without being married, the babe would be a bastard and that's where we run into certain dragon issues with prophecy. And I know what you're going to say: "a dragon is a dragon, red or black." To which I say: says Illyrio Mopatis, a man trying to put a Targaryen from the bastard line on the throne and therefore more inclined to believe such statements.

Lyanna had an issue with Robert stepping out and fathering bastards. People claim it was hypocritical of her to run off with Rhaegar given that he was married to Elia, but the hypocrisy is lessened by a polygamous marriage in which Rhaegar utterly eschews Elia's bed, which I feel pretty confident in saying he would do given Elia's apparent health. Lyanna is already risking it all by running off with the Heir Apparent in the first place, so I think it's a natural and logical step to say she married him as well (and of course I see evidence in the text, I know you don't but we have danced that particular dance many-a-time).

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. I think it was Jon conn's red beard who said Varys told Aerys about something Rhaegar was planning and said Varys had to hide out in an isolated tower so i mused about wether or not it could have been the tower of joy i can not remember reading anywhere that Varys had to hide away .

The only time Varys had to hide was recently, after Tywin's death and Tyrions escape. And several things suggest that Varys remained in KL during that time. As a master of disguise, with perfect knowledge of secret ways that others don't know, Varys would be rather safe there.

You are talking about how Varys told Aerys about Rhaegar's plans at Harrenhal in 281AC. There was nothing that Rhaegar could do about that, and Aerys trusted Varys completely, and kept him in KL. If JCRB actually said that Varys was hiding in a tower, I think it was a joke ;)

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Thanks for setting me straight Rhaenys i will have to look out for people like him then :) even tho i do not find asoiaf something to be joked about.

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I think it was Jon conn's red beard who said Varys told Aerys about something Rhaegar was planning and said Varys had to hide out in an isolated tower so i mused about wether or not it could have been the tower of joy i can not remember reading anywhere that Varys had to hide away .

I may be wrong, but I think JC'sRB was talking about Rhaegar hiding in a tower, not Varys. She said "The thing is that Varys can be fooled. After he told Aerys about Rhaegar's real plans for the Tourney, he left KL and had to hide in an isolated tower. Extreme, but if you consider it, it did work." -- which I read as Rhaegar left KL and hid in a tower so Varys couldn't tell what he was doing. Slight pronoun confusion is all, I think.

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Thanks for setting me straight Rhaenys i will have to look out for people like him then :) even tho i do not find asoiaf something to be joked about.

Most of JCRB posts are serious, don't worry :) everyone makes a joke every now and then ;)

I may be wrong, but I think JC'sRB was talking about Rhaegar hiding in a tower, not Varys. She said "The thing is that Varys can be fooled. After he told Aerys about Rhaegar's real plans for the Tourney, he left KL and had to hide in an isolated tower. Extreme, but if you consider it, it did work." -- which I read as Rhaegar left KL and hid in a tower so Varys couldn't tell what he was doing. Slight pronoun confusion is all, I think.

Ah, ok, that's where the confusion is from. Yeah, what is meant here, is that Rhaegar, whose plans were foiled because Varys had caught on to them, went to the extreme and lived in a tower for most of a year.. Where Varys was unable to find him, as Aerys was unaware where Rhaegar was (and had Varys known, than he would have told Aerys).

So it's not Varys hiding in a tower, it is Rhaegar hiding in a tower to avoid having his plans discovered by Varys ;)

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I knew where you were going with this when I started reading....lol

Ok, so I agree that Lyanna would emulate the Mormont women as warriors. We know that she would have wielded a sword if Rickard Stark hadn't put his foot down. We know--well, we highly suspect--that she was the KotLT and was skilled enough to take down several of the squires during the tourney. And, of course, prior to that we know that she defended the weak (Mr. Howland Reed) in a very knight-like manner. So yes, she's got that liberated Northwoman feel to her.

However, I don't know that there is evidence that she had "unashamed acceptance of a woman's right to take a lover outside patriarchal supervision and NOT be stoned for it" She was still a romantic (crying at Rhaegar's song like Southron women also did), she still thought that love was sweet (even if can't change a man's nature) and Lyanna, who was by all accounts extraordinarily beautiful, never (so far as we know) took a lover for herself. Had she truly been this liberated, bra-burning type, she would have been engaging in illicit affairs a la Brandon. So there is some part of her that "waits for the marriage bed."

Where do we hear about this stuff with Lyanna? I'm in need of a re-read of the books!

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Where do we hear about this stuff with Lyanna? I'm in need of a re-read of the books!

Are yo referring to the first paragraph? About Lyanna wanting to wield a sword? Ned tells Arya that. Lyanna being the KotLT is in Bran III in ASOS, and it's never stated outright but most of us think it's fairly self evident. I think Kingmonkey is only the nay-sayer on that one. Defense of Howland Reed is also in the KotLT story. Lyanna crying at Rhaegar's song is KotLT story as well. Lyanna thinking that love is sweet is a part of a conversation between Lyanna and Ned that Ned recalls in aGoT.

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I find this revealing...




I am a man of the Night’s Watch, a small voice inside insisted, but every night it seemed a little fainter, and when Ygritte kissed his ears or bit his neck, he could not hear it at all. Was this how it was for my father? he wondered. Was he as weak as I am, when he dishonored himself in my mother’s bed?



- ASOS Jon III




At first, it's easy and maybe even simply just Jon referring about Ned, the Father he has ever known. But of course, to us, RLJ fans, we're quite meticulous in seeing GRRM's deeper intentions and layering of meanings behind words.



I believe through this scene with Jon and Ygritte, GRRM revealed to us who Rhaegar was, when he was with Lyanna. I believe Rhaegar went through the whole doubting/questioning if this is right-feeling when he was trying to fulfill the prophecy. Rhaegar went through the temptations of dishonoring himself in regards to Elia, to marry another woman, to fulfill a prophecy to save the realm. As was with Jon, who had to play a part (through Qhorin's urging to be one of the wildlings and be a spy--for the good of the realm).



Rhaegar was playing his part at the cost of his heart becoming weak in Lyanna's presence.



So in turn, it is not far-fetched at all that, like Ygritte, Lyanna also had the hots for the Crown Prince; that she felt that he had stole her, the Northern, Wildling-way.



Although, I could be wrong with this on so many levels, I just want an excuse to say "Hi", since this is my first post in a triple digit RLJ thread. ^_^


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I may be wrong, but I think JC'sRB was talking about Rhaegar hiding in a tower, not Varys. She said "The thing is that Varys can be fooled. After he told Aerys about Rhaegar's real plans for the Tourney, he left KL and had to hide in an isolated tower. Extreme, but if you consider it, it did work." -- which I read as Rhaegar left KL and hid in a tower so Varys couldn't tell what he was doing. Slight pronoun confusion is all, I think.

Ahh thanks for clearing it up for me

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Although, I could be wrong with this on so many levels, I just want an excuse to say "Hi", since this is my first post in a triple digit RLJ thread. ^_^

First...HI!

Second...nice catch. GRRM might be giving up a little sly wink with that line.

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I think Kingmonkey is only the nay-sayer on that one.

Verily, I say not nay, I do but question the certitude of those who consider it a fixity, the very revelation as inevitable as the dawn. 'Tis a noble assumption, yet one I feel perchance may yield surprise. Well served are they who chance to challenge that which seemeth sure, yet giveth suspicion that such surety may yet be sundered.

Uhhh sorry, not sure what got into me there. Better now.

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Verily, I say not nay, I do but question the certitude of those who consider it a fixity, the very revelation as inevitable as the dawn. 'Tis a noble assumption, yet one I feel perchance may yield surprise. Well served are they who chance to challenge that which seemeth sure, yet giveth suspicion that such surety may yet be sundered.

Uhhh sorry, not sure what got into me there. Better now.

Disagree with your argument...love the way you presented it.

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Are yo referring to the first paragraph? About Lyanna wanting to wield a sword? Ned tells Arya that. Lyanna being the KotLT is in Bran III in ASOS, and it's never stated outright but most of us think it's fairly self evident. I think Kingmonkey is only the nay-sayer on that one. Defense of Howland Reed is also in the KotLT story. Lyanna crying at Rhaegar's song is KotLT story as well. Lyanna thinking that love is sweet is a part of a conversation between Lyanna and Ned that Ned recalls in aGoT.

Thanks!

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Wow. That's a LOT of assumption based on very little evidence.

Which assumptions? That Bear Island was not alone in the North in being habitually attacked by ironborn and/or wildlings? That's a fact - and you even pointed out that it was a fact a few posts ago in this thread. :) Maege got pregnant and had her kids while Jorah was still Lord of Bear Island, and therefore Maege was not likely to inherit but remained respectably within the family while her kids carried her own name and not her husband's (if indeed she had one)? That's a fact. That Maege is the current undisputed ruler of Bear Island, without a whisper in the books about any subject or lord disqualifying her as such? Fact. Alysane Mormont's the current heir? Fact. Alysane Mormont has two children she says proudly were fathered by bears? Fact. Neither her mother nor anyone else has cast Alysane out of the family nor disqualified her as heir for her fornication, despite her having those children? Fact. I'd say those facts support pretty solidly the deduction that a woman having an affair - or even a child - out of wedlock is NBD on Bear Island, or at least much less of a shame and a social suicide than we have been shown such an act is in the south.

The main assumption that I make is that Lyanna may have looked up to Northern women like the Mormont women as role models, not only in their warrior skills, but in their relative freedom of choice in selecting their romantic partners, outside patriarchal demands for socially respectable marriage. Is it really so farfetched? Who else could Lyanna take as a living role model for a warrior woman, in the North or anywhere else? And Maege Mormont named her own daughter after Lyanna - the only person in all the books who was so named. Stannis thought it was to curry Ned's favor, but is Maege really the sort to kiss Ned's ass for favor? IMO, it's likely Maege knew her personally and remembered her fondly - and sadly. If she did, she probably knew more of the warrior woman than her father ever did.

I fully acknowledge that I make an assumption. I'm not ashamed of it - any more than you should be ashamed of believing that Lyanna did marry Rhaegar, which is also an assumption.

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The main assumption that I make is that Lyanna may have looked up to Northern women like the Mormont women as role models, not only in their warrior skills, but in their relative freedom of choice in selecting their romantic partners, outside patriarchal demands for socially respectable marriage. Is it really so farfetched?

I agree with this. What I mainly disagree with is that Lyanna would agree to be a mistress to Prince Rhaegar and bear* him bastards. But other than that, I am nodding along with this. She chose Rhaegar just as much he chose her.

edit: spelling and women do not father children, they bear them....also there's a Mormont joke in there somewhere I'm sure.

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Which assumptions? That Bear Island was not alone in the North in being habitually attacked by ironborn and/or wildlings? That's a fact - and you even pointed out that it was a fact a few posts ago in this thread. :) Maege got pregnant and had her kids while Jorah was still Lord of Bear Island, and therefore Maege was not likely to inherit but remained respectably within the family while her kids carried her own name and not her husband's (if indeed she had one)? That's a fact. That Maege is the current undisputed ruler of Bear Island, without a whisper in the books about any subject or lord disqualifying her as such? Fact. Alysane Mormont's the current heir? Fact. Alysane Mormont has two children she says proudly were fathered by bears? Fact. Neither her mother nor anyone else has cast Alysane out of the family nor disqualified her as heir for her fornication, despite her having those children? Fact. I'd say those facts support pretty solidly the deduction that a woman having an affair - or even a child - out of wedlock is NBD on Bear Island, or at least much less of a shame and a social suicide than we have been shown such an act is in the south.

The main assumption that I make is that Lyanna may have looked up to Northern women like the Mormont women as role models, not only in their warrior skills, but in their relative freedom of choice in selecting their romantic partners, outside patriarchal demands for socially respectable marriage. Is it really so farfetched? Who else could Lyanna take as a living role model for a warrior woman, in the North or anywhere else? And Maege Mormont named her own daughter after Lyanna - the only person in all the books who was so named. Stannis thought it was to curry Ned's favor, but is Maege really the sort to kiss Ned's ass for favor? IMO, it's likely Maege knew her personally and remembered her fondly - and sadly. If she did, she probably knew more of the warrior woman than her father ever did.

I fully acknowledge that I make an assumption. I'm not ashamed of it - any more than you should be ashamed of believing that Lyanna did marry Rhaegar, which is also an assumption.

I'm saying that Lyanna is a background character that we only get through snippets. We have a general idea of her personality, but you are filling in gaps with no basis in the text. Just because she likes to fight doesn't mean she wanted to be a warrior. She may be a tomboy, but that doesn't mean she wants to be the next Brienne.

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Indeed, learning about the politics in the north, and the rest of Westeros as well, for that matter (in the case where a female is the last of the surviving line, and is thus the only one left to continue the house) should be very interesting.

When?

DAMMIT! I meant ROBB, not Roosevelt, lol.

I hate auto correct at six in the morning.

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