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Rhaenys_Targaryen

R+L=J v. 107

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Reference guide

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:
Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:
Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:
Jon Snow Theories


Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?
Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targaryen fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?
Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Some of the Great Bastards did not have typical Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?
Much is made over the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya. Ned and Lyanna shared similar looks.

How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?
Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?
The evidence that Jon is legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the Kingsguard opted to stay at the Tower of Joy stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a Kingsguard's vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty.
For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.

But polygamy hadn't been practiced in centuries, is it still even legal?
The practice was never made illegal and there may have been some less prominent examples after Maegor, as stated in this SSM. Furthermore, Jorah suggests it to Dany as a viable option.

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?
Aerys was sane enough to realize how taking someone hostage works even at the end of the Rebellion, and he would hardly miss the opportunity to bring Ned and Robert in line any time after the situation started to look really serious.
Furthermore, regardless of on whose order the Kingsguard might have stayed at Tower of Joy, they would still be in dereliction of their duty to guard the new king.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?
The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the A Song of Ice and Fire readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 18 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?
Ned doesn't think about anyone as being his mother. He says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, but does not actively think that Wylla is the mother. He also doesn't think of Jon as his son. There are numerous mysteries in the series, and Jon's parentage is one of those. If Ned thought about Jon being Lyanna's son, it would not be a mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon care? Who cares if he's legitimate?
Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Since this theory has been refined so well, will Martin change the outcome of the story to surprise his fans?
No, he said he won't change the outcome of the story only because some people have put together all the clues and solved the puzzle.


Previous editions:

Please click on the spoiler below to reveal links to all previous editions of this thread

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread one)

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread two)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III)” (thread three)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV)” (thread four)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V)” (thread five)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)” (thread six)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII” (thread seven)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII” (thread eight)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX” (thread nine)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X”(thread ten)

The R+L=J thread, part XI” (thread eleven)

The R+L=J thread, part XII” (thread twelve)

R+L=J Part XXIII” (thread thirteen)

R+L=J Part XXIV” (thread fourteen)

R+L=J XXV” (thread fifteen)

R+L=J v.16” (thread sixteen)

R+L=J v.17” (thread seventeen)

R+L=J v.18” (thread eighteen)

R+L=J v.19” (thread nineteen)

R+L=J v.20” (thread twenty)

R+L=J v.21” (thread twenty-one)

R+L=J v.22” (thread twenty-two)

R+L=J v.22a” (thread twenty-two (a))

R+L=J v.23” (thread twenty-three)

R+L=J v.24” (thread twenty-four)

R+L=J v.25” (thread twenty-five)

R+L=J v.26” (thread twenty-six)

R+L=J v.27” (thread twenty-seven)

R+L=J v.28” (thread twenty-eight)

R+L=J v.29” (thread twenty-nine)

R+L=J v.30” (thread thirty)

R+L=J v.31” (thread thirty-one)

R+L=J v.32” (thread thirty-two)

R+L=J v.33” (thread thirty-three)

R+L=J v.34” (thread thirty-four)

R+L=J v.35” (thread thirty-five)

R+L=J v.36” (thread thirty-six)

R+L=J v.37” (thread thirty-seven)

R+L=J v.38” (thread thirty-eight)

R+L=J v.39” (thread thirty-nine)

"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)

"R+L=J v.41" (thread forty-one)

"R+L=J v.42" (thread forty-two)

"R+L=J v.43" (thread forty-three)

"R+L=J v.44" (thread forty-four)

"R+L=J v.45" (thread forty-five)

"R+L=J v.46" (thread forty-six)

"R+L=J v.47" (thread forty-seven)

"R+L=J v.48" (thread forty-eight)

"R+L=J v.49" (thread forty-nine)

"R+L=J v.50" (thread fifty)

"R+L=J v.51" (thread fifty-one)

"R+L=J v.52" (thread fifty-two)

"R+L=J v.53" (thread fifty-three)

"R+L=J v.54" (thread fifty-four)

"R+L=J v.55" (thread fifty-five)

"R+L=J v.56" (thread fifty-six)

"R+L=J v.57" (thread fifty-seven)

"R+L=J v.58" (thread fifty-eight)

"R+L=J v.59" (thread fifty-nine)

"R+L=J v.60" (thread sixty)

"R+L=J v.61" (thread sixty-one)

"R+L=J v.62" (thread sixty-two)

"R+L=J v.63" (thread sixty-three)

"R+L=J v.64" (thread sixty-four)

"R+L=J v.65" (thread sixty-five)

"R+L=J v.66" (thread sixty-six)

"R+L=J v.67" (thread sixty-seven)

"R+L=J v.68" (thread sixty-eight)

"R+L=J v.69" (thread sixty-nine)

"R+L=J v.70" (thread seventy)
"R+L=J v.71" (thread seventy-one)

"R+L=J v.72" (thread seventy-two)

"R+L=J v.73" (thread seventy-three)

"R+L=J v.74" (thread seventy-four)

"R+L=J v.75" (thread seventy-five)

"R+L=J v.76" (thread seventy-six)

"R+L=J v.77" (thread seventy-seven)

"R+L=J v.78" (thread seventy-eight)

"R+L=J v.79" (thread seventy-nine)

"R+L=J v.80" (thread eighty)

"R+L=J v.81" (thread eighty-one)

"R+L=J v.82" (thread eighty-two)

"R+L=J v.83" (thread eighty-three)

"R+L=J v.84" (thread eighty-four)

"R+L=J v.85" (thread eighty-five)

"R+L=J v.86" (thread eighty-six)

"R+L=J v.87" (thread eighty-seven)

"R+L=J v.88" (thread eighty-eight)

"R+L=J v.89" (thread eighty-nine)

"R+L=J v.90" (thread ninety)

"R+L=J v.91" (thread ninety-one)

"R+L=J v.92" (thread ninety-two)

"R+L=J v.93" (thread ninety-three)

"R+L=J v.94" (thread ninety-four)

"R+L=J v.95" (thread ninety-five)

"R+L=J v.96" (thread ninety-six)

"R+L=J v. 97" (thread ninety-seven)

"R+L=J v. 98" (thread ninety-eight)

"R+L=J v. 99" (thread ninety-nine)

"R+L =J v.100" (thread one hundred)

"R+L =J v.101" (thread one hundred one)

"R+L =J v.102" (thread one hundred two)

"R+L =J v.103" (thread one hundred three)

"R+L =J v.104" (thread one hundred four)

R+L = J v. 105 (thread one hundred five)

R+L=J v. 106 (thread one hundred six)

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About Jon's hand being burnt has anyone stopped to think it may not have been fire that burnt his hand but boiling oil from the lamp ? He may be immune to fire i dont think i gave read anything on that either way but it was more likely the boiling hot oil that burnt Jon's hand IMO .

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About Jon's hand being burnt has anyone stopped to think it may not have been fire that burnt his hand but boiling oil from the lamp ? He may be immune to fire i dont think i gave read anything on that either way but it was more likely the boiling hot oil that burnt Jon's hand IMO .

GRRM has expressed multiple times that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Dany burned her hands, so Jon burning his hands, no matter in which way, should not be a problem ;)

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GRRM has expressed multiple times that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Dany burned her hands, so Jon burning his hands, no matter in which way, should not be a problem ;)

This. Plus other Targs have died by fire-related means.

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New thread!






And they are all (when the bodies can be recovered) cremated after death, which would also be rather difficult if you are immune to fire.





Yup. That.


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And they are all (when the bodies can be recovered) cremated after death, which would also be rather difficult if you are immune to fire.

Well, technically it could be possible to be immune during life but not after death. But I agree, Targs in general are not immune from fire -- although I suspect we will see another "miracle" (like Dany's with the waking of the dragons) in which a Targ is set on fire but does not burn -- specifically, the "reawakening" of Jon.

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so if rhaegar can do polygamy, can aegon do it too?

I suppose he could, but the women also have to be willing. Of course, I suspect that (f)Aegon will die (by the slayer of lies) long before he would have a chance to marry two women.

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Well, technically it could be possible to be immune during life but not after death. But I agree, Targs in general are not immune from fire -- although I suspect we will see another "miracle" (like Dany's with the waking of the dragons) in which a Targ is set on fire but does not burn -- specifically, the "reawakening" of Jon.

If that happens, I shall enjoy reading Mel's total freak out.

so if rhaegar can do polygamy, can aegon do it too?

If he wanted, yes. But I think you should remember that fAegon most likely won't because he needs the popular support of Westeros to assist him in his claim. And even though the Targs could practice polygamy, Westeros as a whole still isn't "fond" of it. He has to be "the people's king." So I see him marrying Arianne. But, fAegon isn't going to be around for long...

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well there was that thread about sansa and aegon marying and i thought about polygamy when people insisted that arriane was to marry him


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well there was that thread about sansa and aegon marying and i thought about polygamy when people insisted that arriane was to marry him

I don't quite know why people think Sasna and Aegon would marry unless it has something to do with Sansa being the younger and more beautiful queen. Arianne seems a shoe-in for Aegon's bride. But as far as polygamy goes, if Aegon were to practice it, I suspect he'd still want Dany given her dragons and Targaryen blood. But...ain't happening.

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Wow, 107. :drool:



Anyway, I didn't get a chance to respond to BQ and KM, but no, I don't think the Targaryarens are based upon the weirdness of Armana. I only noticed subtle parallels. :P


I defintetly think the Targaryens are historical parallels to the Angevin/Plantaganets, based upon the War of the Roses. Medieval nobility intermarried almost incestuoulsy as well, though they tended to confine themselves cousin-to-cousin.



Even the Starks did it. (A Stark married his half-niece Sansa) :stillsick:, and Rikcard and his wife Lyarra were first cousins.



(Also interesting to me is that the few Southron Houses the Starks married into were worshipers of the old gods, and Bloodraven may be a cousin to the Starks given his mother Melissas was probably related to Malantha Blackwood, William Starks first wife).




As for Varys and if he knows about Jon. I doubt it, because he was younger and may not have been the spymaster he is now, but I also wouldn't discount it. I think he is lying about not knowing what became of Arya, but its the why he would keep the information to himself, unless of course they both play into his plans.


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Varys was Aerys spy master before he became king Roberts spy master / master of whispers so his little birds obviously failed to tell him about Jon

I don't think Varys knows about Jon either but if he did, Varys might just keep quiet since Ned decides that the best course of action is to raise Jon as his own bastard son. And then when Jon goes to the Wall, Varys can assume that any succession problems with Jon are solved.

But, yeah, on the whole, I don't think Varys knows.

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I've corrected some colours, so here you go again - the ToJ dream versus reality:

We have Ned's memories which correlate with the dream, as well as dreaming on another occasion:

He dreamt an old dream,

He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years.

of three knights in white cloaks,

Three men in white cloaks, he thought, remembering, and a strange chill went through him.

and a tower long fallen,

Ned had pulled the tower down afterward,

and Lyanna in her bed of blood.

“Lord Eddard,” Lyanna called again.

“I promise,” he whispered. “Lya, I promise …”

Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned.

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood.

In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life.

They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life.

Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns

They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed


He dreamt an old dream

In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life

They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life

He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years

In other words: he had had the dream before, many times, in years. He directly confirms parts of the dream as faithfully reflecting reality, and after he wakes up, he elaborates on the details of the event:

It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory’s father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed.

Ser Boros Blount guarded the far end of the bridge, white steel armor ghostly in the moonlight. Within, Ned passed two other knights of the Kingsguard; Ser Preston Greenfield stood at the bottom of the steps, and Ser Barristan Selmy waited at the door of the king’s bedchamber. Three men in white cloaks, he thought, remembering, and a strange chill went through him.

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