R+L=J v. 107

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Ned was 18 at HH, and never described as exceptionally short. Plus, he would have ridden in his own name, in his own armour.

Also, if Lyanna could train swords with Benjen, she could have trained something else, like riding at rings, with either Benjen or Brandon (lady Barbrey mentions her and Brandon riding the Rills, so there would have been an opportunity)

Plus, we have a twelve-year-old Elia Sand aka Lady Lance for TWOW

Actually, Elia is a 14/15 year old jousting lady.. Guess who also was a 14/15 year old jousting girl? The parallel is a perfect one!

Rhaenys_Targaryen

It was thread 87: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/113848-rlj-v-87/page-8#entry6018433

Conversation about all the Ameon stuff starts around there.

Ah thank you! :D With so many thread in such a short time period, I could not remember :)

before that one, too, is gone.

We're half-way already ;)

Since I'm right now thinking a lot on the time line and other stuff, let's revisit the whole 'Ned came down from the Eyrie to Harrenhal' thing from AGoT during his tenure in the black cell:

'It was the year of the false spring, and he was eighteen again, down from the Eyrie to the tourney at Harrenhal.'

Does this quote from AGoT really make a lot of sense in light of the fact that we learn in AFfC that the Arryns regularly abandon the Eyrie from late autumn until (at least) until (early?) spring?

Considering that snows should last a lot longer up on the Giant's Lance than down in the Vale, it would make very little sense to assume that Jon Arryn would have just jumped on the chance that it may become spring and leave the Gates of the Moon for the Eyrie (i.e. before the Conclave declared the official beginning of spring) just when the snows in the Vale began to melt makes little sense indeed.

Any thoughts on that thing?

That is an excellent catch. So the Arryns were at the Eyrie, suggesting that all the snows had been gone, and for that, the false spring should have been lasting for some time already then, I'd say. Which would also perhaps suggest that the winter weather returned shortly after the tourney itself.

Which would make it more likely Ned had visited Winterfell before the tourney (perhaps even a year or so before the tourney, all information on Mya's birth gives room for such a thing). From Winterfell to the Eyrie to Harrenhal (with an unknown amount of time in between the Winterfell and the Eyrie), back to the Eyrie, on to the war...?

[Lord Varys]

Well, I'd rather say that Ned was getting confused about the time line about events this long ago, especially because of the shape he was in at the time.

I do not doubt that he was 18, or that he was at Eyrie once, but it is pretty unlikely that he spent time there both before and after Harrenhal (i.e. Jon, Robert, and Ned were most likely at the Gates of the Moon, not at the Eyrie, when Aerys called for the heads of Robert and Ned.

After the end of the False Spring winter should have returned for quite some time, and it should be pretty much impossible to live at the Eyrie during real winter. It was already pretty hard during autumn, we get as much from Sansa's chapters.

It would make little sense to assume that Jon Arryn would first jump up into the Eyrie in the False Spring, then go down again during the winter, and then jump up again when it looks again as if the weather is going to get better. In fact, reason dictates that he would then wait a lot longer to ensure that he did not go up there during another 'false spring'.

In that sense, I'd argue again that Ned either was not in the Vale prior to Harrenhal, or that he did at least not stay at the Eyrie if he was at the Vale (but at the Gates of the Moon). Ned and Robert clearly spent a lot of time at the Eyrie during during the fostering days, but Ned really may be mistaken on this whole 'I was in the Eyrie before I went to Harrenhal' thing. He may have been there some time before that (i.e. in the last autumn) but not directly before he went to Harrenhal.

[addicted to snow]

In aGoT's (Book I), why does Ned all of the sudden feel that his Promise to Lyanna (you may have heard of it) was broken???

[JonCon's Red Beard]

In aGoT's (Book I), why does Ned all of the sudden feel that his Promise to Lyanna (you may have heard of it) was broken???

He doesn't exactly feels that, but I suppose it's because despite his intentions, and despite he has taken good care of Jon, he isn't a happy kid. He probably promised to loved him as a son of his own, which he does, but for everybody else, he's just a bastard. And Jon has shaped his life believing that. His decision to go the Wall is based on that.

[Consigliere]

Apple Martini made a post about that some time back: Link.

[Ygrain]

Actually, Elia is a 14/15 year old jousting lady.. Guess who also was a 14/15 year old jousting girl? The parallel is a perfect one!

I thought she was younger? - Not that it really matters :-)

Another point from watching the Tudors: what does a king do when he wants a new marriage? He names an archbishop who complies. Now, what does a Targ do if he wants a second marriage? Go figure :-)

ETA for spelling

[addicted to snow]

He doesn't exactly feels that, but I suppose it's because despite his intentions, and despite he has taken good care of Jon, he isn't a happy kid. He probably promised to loved him as a son of his own, which he does, but for everybody else, he's just a bastard. And Jon has shaped his life believing that. His decision to go the Wall is based on that.

I don't buy it... If that was the reason that the promise is broken, then the promise would have been broken long before...

I also have a difficult time buying Apple Martini's thoughts that the promise was to raise Jon as his bastard & one day tell him who he really is... That would be an oddly self-serving promise to make & besides, if Ned had promised that he would tell Jon his true identity, then he wouldn't have ever allowed Jon to take the Black...

--

As I see it, the only thing that really changed for Ned to think that the promise was broken is that he thinks that Dany is dead...

--

Other major events that happened prior to Ned feeling that the promise was broken, but Dany is the only thing that Ned was really passionate about...

[BearQueen87]

I thought she was younger? - Not that it really matters :-)

Another point frlom watching the Tudors: what does a king do when he wants a new marriage? He names an archibishop who complies. Now, what does a Targ do if he wants a second marriage? Go figure :-)

Dear Mr. High Septon: Either you approve this second marriage or...heads, spikes, wall.

[BearQueen87]

I don't buy it... If that was the reason that the promise is broken, then the promise would have been broken long before...

I also have a difficult time buying Apple Martini's thoughts that the promise was to raise Jon as his bastard & one day tell him who he really is... That would be an oddly self-serving promise to make & besides, if Ned had promised that he would tell Jon his true identity, then he wouldn't have ever allowed Jon to take the Black...

--

As I see it, the only thing that really changed for Ned to think that the promise was broken is that he thinks that Dany is dead...

--

Other major events that happened prior to Ned feeling that the promise was broken, but Dany is the only thing that Ned was really passionate about...

Don't think it's Dany so much as it's killing innocents.

[XSarellaX]

I can no longer remember in which thread we discussed this, so I need a little help. I'm looking for all the clues hinting towards Aemon having been Jon's birth name. So far, I've got "He was no Aemon Targaryen" and Aemon the Dragonknight having been a childhood hero of Jon's.

Were there any more?

Someone probably has brought it up already, but Mance's son, a very clear parallel to Jon, is named Aemon Battleborn.

I find it a bit sad that Gilly may have accidentally named her adopted son after Jon, when her feelings towards him probably aren't very kind at the moment, but Jon might have saved the boy from being burned to death, sooo... perhaps it isn't so bad.

And let's look at all the king Aegons we've had to date:

Aegon I: no true-born brothers

Aegon II: had a brother named Aemond, and one named Daeron

Aegon III: brother named Viserys + half brothers

Aegon IV: his brother was Aemon the Dragonknight

Aegon V: his brothers were Aerion, Dareon and Aemon

Aegon VI:_________

So far, the only King Aegons who didn't have a brother named Aemon, or something very very similar (Aemond) were Aegon I (no brothers), and Aegon III (but we already have two Aegons in the same generation. Two Aemon(d)s would be a bit too much).

Aemon and Dareon seem to be the most common names for a brother to a King Aemon to have. Since Rhaegar seems to be into tradition (naming his kids A&R), it doesn't seem so unlikely that he would name his third kid that, especially when he corresponded with his uncle at the Wall.

Of course, this isn't great evidence or anything, but I thought it worth mentioning.

[Kingmonkey]

Yeah, I don't see nearly as many cons in them marrying as I do them not getting married.

Cons? As in JonCon? "Ooh, Rhaegy got married again? The hussy! To some northern tart, too, face on her like a smacked badger. Did I even get an invitation? I did not. And I had such a lovely frock to wear."

Yes. I'm bad. Sorry.

[Kingmonkey]

In aGoT's (Book I), why does Ned all of the sudden feel that his Promise to Lyanna (you may have heard of it) was broken???

Are you referring to:

He slept and woke and slept again. He did not know which was more painful, the waking or the sleeping. When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises. When he woke, there was nothing to do but think, and his waking thoughts were worse than nightmares.

-AGoT ch.58

It's kind of an odd one, but then Ned's thoughts of guilt and promises are rather complex. However, can we be sure this relates to his promises to Lyanna, rather than other promises? I've heard people suggest that it was the promise to Jon to tell him about his parentage next time they met, or the promise to Robert to eat the boar. I'm far from satisfied with either, because the link between broken promises and blood is rather weak in both cases.

I'd speculate that this is actually intended to be something quite non-specific. He's in a dark place, dreaming of all his regrets, and sees his life in terms of the things he's been unable to do for the people he loves, and the battles he's had to fight when really he'd prefer to be at home raising a family. However I do have an alternative theory that he might have been thinking about a promise made to Ashara not to kill Arthur Dayne made in exchange for information on where to find Lyanna and the ToJ. The events of the ToJ certainly haunt him.

[IceFire125]

Images of the show's History and Lore (which I'm sure had to go through GRRM's approval).

http://i.imgur.com/bGeFeYW.jpg

Image on the right: during Robert's narration after the Sack of KL and the reconciliation of Robert and Ned upon seeing Lyanna's body.

Image on the left: during Thoros' narration about the legend of the Long Night and Azor Ahai thrusting a sword through Nissa Nissa's heart, and the sword becoming Lightbringer.

both images have a flower in it... a rose?... a winter rose? :)

[BearQueen87]

Images of the show's History and Lore (which I'm sure had to go through GRRM's approval).

http://i.imgur.com/bGeFeYW.jpg

Image on the right: during Robert's narration after the Sack of KL and the reconciliation of Robert and Ned upon seeing Lyanna's body.

Image on the left: during Thoros' narration about the legend of the Long Night and Azor Ahai thrusting a sword through Nissa Nissa's heart, and the sword becoming Lightbringer.

both images have a flower in it... a rose?... a winter rose? :)

Nice catch!

[RumHam]

Images of the show's History and Lore (which I'm sure had to go through GRRM's approval).

Just for the record, Martin doesn't get to approve anything for the show. He can suggest things, but they have ignored him in the past. Those lore videos, while awesomely animated, are not canon. I remember at least one of them directly contradicts book canon.

[Alia of the knife]

Those images are beautiful, but the only thing I take issue with is how they make Ned, Robert, and in another image, Brandon, all look like they were just as old then as now.

At the time of the rebellion, Ned was what, eighteen? As well as Robert? And their deaths were roughly fifteen to eighteen years later? They would be in their mid to late thirties when they died.

If they ever do a flashback of Ned with Sean Bean, it would be very cool if they did to him what they did to Jeff Bridges in "Tron."

[Alia of the knife]

I thought she was younger? - Not that it really matters :-)

Another point from watching the Tudors: what does a king do when he wants a new marriage? He names an archbishop who complies. Now, what does a Targ do if he wants a second marriage? Go figure :-)

ETA for spelling

In watching John Rhys Meyer's Henry, one gets the impression he plays him as a bit of a royal psycho, (which he may have been).

There is some speculation that when he took that fall in that jousting accident, he might have had a serious injury that went beyond his leg, but his head as well.

His armoured horse also fell on him and he was unconscientious for two hours.

He also ushered in the theory of "the Divine Right of Kings." If God himself means for you to rule, well, there you go then. Who needs dragons?

Henry VIII always put me in mind as the historical parallel to Maegor the Cruel.

[BearQueen87]

He also ushered in the theory of "the Divine Right of Kings." If God himself means for you to rule, well, there you go then. Who needs dragons?

Henry VIII always put me in mind as the historical parallel to Maegor the Cruel.

One thing I'm really looking forward to in the World book is hopefully some information on the old Valryian gods and how the Targaryen's viewed themselves in relation to their old gods.

[JNR]

Just for the record, Martin doesn't get to approve anything for the show. He can suggest things, but they have ignored him in the past. Those lore videos, while awesomely animated, are not canon. I remember at least one of them directly contradicts book canon.

Yes, there are several instances like that: Lann the Clever is said to date to the Dawn Age, the proto-Valyrians found dragon eggs (not dragons), etc.

There are also cases in which the videos spell out something plainly that's only implied in the books, like the hammer of waters being aimed at the First Men (not Andals), or the CotF and First Men having jointly fought the Others in the Long Night.

Your main point, that the show cannot reasonably be used as evidence for theories about the books, is well taken. They are separate universes, and the gap between them is getting wider with every season.

The World book will have similar problems. It is written by a maester and full of maesterish mistakes, such as the one you find in the first two sentences. It should be seen as unreliable narration on a level with Maester Luwin's declarations that magic doesn't work and the CotF all died out thousands of years ago.

[Consigliere]

The World book will have similar problems. It is written by a maester and full of maesterish mistakes, such as the one you find in the first two sentences. It should be seen as unreliable narration on a level with Maester Luwin's declarations that magic doesn't work and the CotF all died out thousands of years ago.

This is what frustrates me about the world book. I mean, why even write it in the POV of a maester? I guess I will have to wait and see how the text is presented but I suppose it will be just like TPatQ and TRP where X says this, Y says that and Z says something else and we will be left to decide which is more likely or, as in most cases, choose to believe the account that fits with our own personal beliefs.