Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

ant1010

Question about Jaime, Lord Bolton, and Vargo

Recommended Posts

I just read Jaime's chapter where he explains to Brienne what really happened at Kings landing and why he really killed the mad King. Later they both meet up with lord Bolton, and they talk about vargo and how lord Bolton wants to make sure that Jaime explains to his father that he had nothing to do with his missing hand etc but I feel so much more happened at this meeting and that a lot of it is going over my head. I even reread the whole meeting and still don't really understand what was happening. Can someone explain to me the gist of this meeting? Like a summarization or any information would help. Thanks! PS when you come across a chapter that gives you trouble, how to you approach it? What helps you better understand what you just read? How do you break it down so to speak? Also, in new here, so hello everyone. Thank you for your time :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Welcome! :)



Because I can't see from your post how far you've read the book, I'll put the explanation in spoiler tags. If you haven't at least reached chapter 54 (Davos V), you might want to read all the way up until there before reading what I've spoiler tagged ;)




By the time this dinner takes place, Roose Bolton has long been in one camp with Tywin Lannister, while pretending to still be loyal to Robb Stark. Vargo Hoat, who had originally been fighting for the Lannisters, had gone over to the North (as seen when Harrenhal is handed to Roose). Vargo has been suspecting that Roose might be planning to change sides, and Vargo knows he cannot go back to Tywin (Tywin does not forgive, and Vargo betrayed him, after all). So Vargo has Jaime's hand cut off, to try and drive a wedge between Roose and Tywin, to prevent them from planning together. Unbeknown to Vargo, Roose and Tywin were already plotting.



But now Roose finds himself in a situation, where someone over whom he holds the command has cut off the hand of Tywin Lannisters favorite son. Roose is trying to get Jaime to promise to tell Tywin that Roose had got nothing to do with any of the hand-business, because should Tywin believe that it was Roose who had given the order, retributions would follow, and Roose knows that.



Roose can't spell this all out during the dinner. People might be listening, and reporting to Vargo, for example. Or those loyal to Robb might hear. Roose is still pretending to be loyal to Robb, after all. Him letting Jaime go free "to make up for you losing your hand" is a rather big hint that Roose has changed sides.




When not understanding a chapter immediately, a re-read is usefull, at times immediately, at times a while later, when more had been read. Also posting questions in the Small Questions Thread (pinned in the General subforum), as long as they are rather small, is a good way to figure stuff out. Or find a thread discussing the subject and join in the discussion (or make your own thread, of course, if there is none for your subject already open).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very nice, Rhaenys, perfect explanation. But what is the explanation for why Roose went over to Tywin in the first place? Seems to me that Rob Stark always preferred Roose over Greatjon (or is it Smalljon?) Umber? Can't be just because of his lunatic bastard son, can it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very nice, Rhaenys, perfect explanation. But what is the explanation for why Roose went over to Tywin in the first place? Seems to me that Rob Stark always preferred Roose over Greatjon (or is it Smalljon?) Umber? Can't be just because of his lunatic bastard son, can it?

His reason? Support the strongest, and make certain that you will come out a winner yourself as well. After hundreds of years of Bolton vs Stark, House Bolton now came out on top.

Making certain that Tywin needed him, have his a stronger position post-war than all those who merely bend the knee after Robbs death. House Bolton gained the North, those other houses lost lands, wealth, and family members as hostages.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bolton also saw the tragic mistake of marrying Jeyne W and the fact that not only are the Freys jumping ship but now the Karstarks as well.



But I don't get the impression that Vargo was trying to drive a wedge between Bolton and Lannister. My understanding is that Vargo is unaware that Roose has switched sides and removing Jaime's hand was simply a power play with Vargo using his preferred method of punishment. DId I miss something?


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bolton also saw the tragic mistake of marrying Jeyne W and the fact that not only are the Freys jumping ship but now the Karstarks as well.

Apparently Bolton betrayed Robb right from the beginning (Battle of the Green Fork).

But I don't get the impression that Vargo was trying to drive a wedge between Bolton and Lannister. My understanding is that Vargo is unaware that Roose has switched sides and removing Jaime's hand was simply a power play with Vargo using his preferred method of punishment. DId I miss something?

From the wiki entry of Jaime Lannister:

Vargo suspects that his superior, Lord Roose Bolton, is thinking about going over to the Lannisters after their victory over Stannis Baratheon in the Battle of the Blackwater and their new alliance to House Tyrell.

Although I remember this as well, no source is given.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, but that was after the hand was already taken, no? I mean, if vargo suspected that Bolton was going to support the Lans, why maim the eldest son of your new liege?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, but that was after the hand was already taken, no? I mean, if vargo suspected that Bolton was going to support the Lans, why maim the eldest son of your new liege?

Because Vargo had originally been hired by Tywin, and had worked for Tywin, fighting against Robb, before deciding that he would be better off with Robb instead of Tywin.

Tywin would not accept Vargo back, and thus Vargo was desperate to keep the northern host that surrounded him in the hands of a man who fought for Robb.. not of a man who would join Tywin, as that would mean Vargo's death.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very nice, Rhaenys, perfect explanation. But what is the explanation for why Roose went over to Tywin in the first place? Seems to me that Rob Stark always preferred Roose over Greatjon (or is it Smalljon?) Umber? Can't be just because of his lunatic bastard son, can it?

Roose Bolton is only loyal to Roose Bolton. He isn't the same type of man as the Greatjon, who loves the Starks, or Karstark, who is ruled by emotions. Once the Starks began to lose the war, Roose simply saw an opportunity and took it. He seems to have decided to switch sides when Theon took Winterfell and the Lannisters-Tyrells won the Blackwater

It's unclear whether he ordered Ramsay to sack Winterfell, or if Ramsay was acting alone.

Apparently Bolton betrayed Robb right from the beginning (Battle of the Green Fork).

That's a matter of some debate - most people don't believe his treachery began that early. There was no compelling reason for him to betray Robb at that time

He took Harrenhal with no Northern casualties in ACOK. Not really the action of a traitor, is it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From the wiki entry of Jaime Lannister:

Although I remember this as well, no source is given.

A source has been added to the wiki.

The quote in question, below

“By maiming you, he meant to remove your sword as a threat, gain himself a grisly token to send to your father, and diminish your value to me. For he is my man, as I am King Robb’s man. Thus his crime is mine, or may seem so in your father’s eyes. And therein lies my... small difficulty.” He gazed at Jaime, his pale eyes unblinking, expectant, chill.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow, I have to reread all of this. So you are saying that Vargo knew Roose was going to, or already had, switched over to the Lannisters and that he himself could not go back because he had already betrayed Tywin once. So in order to muck things up for Roose, and possibly prevent the Bolton/Lannister alliance, he took Jaime's hand.



I would say that was probably a miscalculation on his part because Tywin knows better than anybody that sellswords are untrustworthy and switch sides at the drop of a dime. Of course, there was the whole Amory Lorch thing, so yeah he probably had burned his bridges.



But it was always my belief that he did not know Roose had switched sides and that he was simply taking the son of his new enemy out of the game.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But it was always my belief that he did not know Roose had switched sides and that he was simply taking the son of his new enemy out of the game.

Honestly, this explanation would have worked just as well. Vargo wouldn't kill "the Kingthlayer" needlessly, since he knows Jaime is worth a lot of gold, but I could easily see him chopping the hand just to show what a big tough guy he is. Nothing would have changed in that case - Jaime would still be maimed, the Bloody Mummers would still be aligned with the North, and Roose would still have to deal with the fallout.

Turning it into a calculated political act by Vargo just makes the situation more difficult for readers to understand and doesn't really fit his character. GRRM expects us to believe the goat was so insightful that he could anticipate Roose's plans and came up with a decent plan to foil them

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow, I have to reread all of this. So you are saying that Vargo knew Roose was going to, or already had, switched over to the Lannisters and that he himself could not go back because he had already betrayed Tywin once. So in order to muck things up for Roose, and possibly prevent the Bolton/Lannister alliance, he took Jaime's hand.

I would say that was probably a miscalculation on his part because Tywin knows better than anybody that sellswords are untrustworthy and switch sides at the drop of a dime. Of course, there was the whole Amory Lorch thing, so yeah he probably had burned his bridges.

But it was always my belief that he did not know Roose had switched sides and that he was simply taking the son of his new enemy out of the game.

I would call it suspected, or feared. Vargo suspected or feared that Roose was going to go over to Tywin's side, and thus was trying to prevent Roose having a choice in the matter (should Tywin declare Roose guilty of Jaime's maiming, Roose would only have the option of supporting Robb, should he wish to survive the struggle), but in the end Vargo failed.

There was absolutely no chance, ever, that Tywin would accept Vargo back, after Vargo went over to Robb Stark. Unfortunately for Vargo, it was only after his switch when he learned about what Tywin Lannister does to those who betray him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good thread so far, I like the insightful comments, one question I have is that if there were loyal men (to Robb) still at Harrenhal when Roose let Jaime go, surely this would have got back to him and set alarm bells off?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good thread so far, I like the insightful comments, one question I have is that if there were loyal men (to Robb) still at Harrenhal when Roose let Jaime go, surely this would have got back to him and set alarm bells off?

They were either all send away (Tallhart etc.) before Jaime ever arrived (Clash), or part of Vargo's group.. And as the rest of the book shows us, it does not end well for Vargo.. The rest of the Brave Companions were sellswords. Some died, some fled.. A couple will show up in Feast :)

The sellswords left at Harrenhal when Jaime leaves, are in a tough position. They can't actually run to Robb, as that will mean travel together with Roose to the Twins.. And Roose still has the bigger army.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks, I dont have the book handy with me when I post so its good to be reminded. There were a lot of comings and goings from Harrenhal so hard to do from memory. I'm on a re-read at the moment so looking at things alot more closely.



@ Ramsay Gimp when do you think Bolton decided fully to turn, do you think this was independent of Freys decision? Or Do you think Tywin got one on board first then the other? As I think it was suggested that one of the messages received from the Freys was the indication to turn.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@ Ramsay Gimp when do you think Bolton decided fully to turn, do you think this was independent of Freys decision? Or Do you think Tywin got one on board first then the other? As I think it was suggested that one of the messages received from the Freys was the indication to turn.

I think he decided to turn after Theon took Winterfell and the Tyrells joined the Lannisters, so he was probably the first to contact Tywin. Roose deliberately sends Glover and Tallhart, two loyal Stark bannermen, on a pointless suicide mission in ACOK after the Blackwater but before news of Robb's marriage. So yes, his decision was independent

Robb marrying Jeyne just clarified what form the ultimate betrayal would take, since it gave Walder Frey a reason to work with Tywin/Roose and kill Robb. GRRM has said in a SSM that the Freys wouldn't have done the Red Wedding if it weren't for Robb's oathbreaking

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a question concerning this..



Had Roose Bolton planned to ally with Tywin before or after taking Harrenhal from the Lannisters? In other words, when Bolton took Harrenhal, was he already in bed with Tywin?


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a question concerning this..

Had Roose Bolton planned to ally with Tywin before or after taking Harrenhal from the Lannisters? In other words, when Bolton took Harrenhal, was he already in bed with Tywin?

No, probably not. Back then, it still seemed like Robb was going to win.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×