Daenerys is the Denethor of ASoIaF

[Nucky Thompson]

It has been stated multiple times by GRRM that he is a huge fan of Tolkien who has set the standards in fantasy.

With that in mind, if we consider the characters of Daenerys and Denethor from LoTR, beyond the reminiscently sounding names, there seem to be further parallels between them - which lend credence to the proposition that Daenerys is partially based on Denethor.

First of all, both of them resort to creating a pyre and burning their problems when a dire situation arises.

Secondly, both of them are rather incompetent rulers (less so in Denethor's case, but still) and have to be replaced against their will (still to happen with Daenerys, but her incompetence is axiomatic and defines her entire character).

It is also worth mentioning that both are rather arrogant, which while seemingly accepted by others, eventually lead to unpleasant developments (Denethor being deposed, Daenerys being served poisoned locusts).

Furthermore, they seem to have a problem with a certain individual coming from the North who has a better claim to power than them - Jon Targaryen (if he is in fact one) in Daenerys' case, and Aragorn in Denethor's case.

Perhaps we can extrapolate how some of the events to come in Daenerys' story arc will turn out if we compare them with what Denethor has done. It is my belief that this further strenghtens the idea that the end of the series will feature a clash between ice (Jon and the Others) vs. fire (Daenerys and dragons, red priests, etc.).

Under the assumption, that both characters are somehow related, it is interesting how they can produce so different impressions for me personally (Denethor is probably my favourite character of LoTR, and I despise Daenerys).

[LordStoneheart]

I'll overlook the fact that you used the word "axiomatic" and run with this. ;)

First of all, are you going by the film Denethor or the book? Because they're two different characters, pretty much.

It's just speculation that Dany will have a problem with Jon. IMO, if she learns (and believes) his heritage, she probably will be more excited than threatened. She has a special adoration for Rhaegar and knowing he left behind a living son might be in her interest. Then again, she might doubt it after/during her deals with Aegon.

[Nictarion]

Daenerys is a unique and brilliantly written character. She doesn't need to have a parallel from LotR. She's also a main character of ASoIaF, Denethor is not a main character in LotR. She's obviously much, much more important to her respective story than he was to his. GRRM has stated numerous times Daenerys is one of his absolute favorite characters, I highly doubt JRRT felt that strongly about Denethor.

[Mithras]

I don't agree. Denethor was mad with grief/Sauron's intervention when he prepared that pyre, not similar to Dany's case. Denethor was not an incompetent ruler either. His greatest mistake was to consult to the Palantir and come under the influence of Sauron.

I also do not think Jon will lead the Others.

But I can see a clash between Jon and Dany.

[SeanF]

Daenerys is a unique and brilliantly written character. She doesn't need to have a parallel from LotR. She's also a main character of ASoIaF, Denethor is not a main character in LotR. She's obviously much, much more important to her respective story than he was to his. GRRM has stated numerous times Daenerys is one of his absolute favorite characters, I highly doubt JRRT felt that strongly about Denethor.

The closest parallel to Daenerys in fantasy/science fiction is Paul Atreides, IMHO.

[Lion of the West]

I'll overlook the fact that you used the word "axiomatic" and run with this. ;)

First of all, are you going by the film Denethor or the book? Because they're two different characters, pretty much.

It's just speculation that Dany will have a problem with Jon. IMO, if she learns (and believes) his heritage, she probably will be more excited than threatened. She has a special adoration for Rhaegar and knowing he left behind a living son might be in her interest. Then again, she might doubt it after/during her deals with Aegon.

If she will be all excited for Jon, will she lay down her claim at the instant she learns of Aegon who is the rightful ruler? I think she might be happy she isn't the last Targaryen left, but then again a lot of her identity seems to come from this belief. However I don't see her backing down from the claim for either of them unless some really good reason comes up. I can't think of any at the moment.

[Guard of the Rainking]

Daenerys is a unique and brilliantly written character. She doesn't need to have a parallel from LotR. She's also a main character of ASoIaF, Denethor is not a main character in LotR. She's obviously much, much more important to her respective story than he was to his. GRRM has stated numerous times Daenerys is one of his absolute favorite characters, I highly doubt JRRT felt that strongly about Denethor.

:agree: . Although for what it's worth GRRM has said that his favorite LOTR character is Boromir, so Daenerys' ultimate faith may be somewhat similar to that of Denethor's.

[Nucky Thompson]

Well, there is no need for both characters to be author-favourites - what I propose is that major parts of Daenerys as a character are borrowed from Denethor and they parallel each other. If GRRM really has Boromir as his favourite LotR character, then what could this mean for Daenerys and ASoIaF? One might entertain a notion of a Stark (most likely Robb) being somewhat similar in military daring, yet failing when an opportunity to abuse his power comes up (Robb spurning the Frey marriage might be a bit like Boromir trying to take the ring for himself - with regard to tragic consequences, that is). Another, although more tenuous, link could have to do with Faramir being overshadowed by his brother and yet proceeding on the basis of honor to fight the orcs at Osgiliath at great peril to himself; and Victarion, who is overshadowed at intelligence by the rest of the Greyjoys (and pretty much everybody else), but still proceeds begrudgingly and on the basis of honor with his Slaver Bay mission, regardless of seeing Euron's ploy behind it.

There is a new idea in the responses which actually reinforces my thesis - Denethor consults the Palantir, while Daenerys has Quaithe appear and tell her stuff. And that is only a tiny step less threatening and evil than Melisandre. Thanks!

I agree that it is a speculation to assume that Daenerys and Jon will clash - and I speculate to that effect on the basis of a proposed similarity between Daenerys and Denethor. For what is worth, Jon can be seen by a mad Targaryen as the offspring of 'a usurper dog', meaning that he has been under Stark influence and 'is tainted' or something, even if she considers him Rhaegar's true heir (some further speculation here, too).

I originally compared her with movie-Denethor, since I still haven't read LotR, but from what I saw in Wikipedia, book-Denethor is even more likeable (for being a somewhat efficient ruler - at any rate, him ordering the Osgiliath maneuver can't qualify him as comptent) than movie-Denethor (whom I appreciate as a character for dissing the Middle Earth equivalent of a hobo trying to take his seat of power).

PS: What's wrong with axiomatic?

[Nictarion]

:agree: . Although for what it's worth GRRM has said that his favorite LOTR character is Boromir, so Daenerys' ultimate faith may be somewhat similar to that of Denethor's.

I'd consider Boromir a main character though. At least he was part of the fellowship. Not some guy we met in the last book.

[Nictarion]

Wait.....whaaaaat? MOVIE Denethor was your favorite character? He was actually one of Jackson's biggest fuck ups imo.

[Mithras]

Wait.....whaaaaat? MOVIE Denethor was your favorite character? He was actually one of Jackson's biggest fuck ups imo.

Agreed.

[SeanF]

Wait.....whaaaaat? MOVIE Denethor was your favorite character? He was actually one of Jackson's biggest fuck ups imo.

I don't know what Jackson was thinking of. In the film, Denethor is a mean, cowardly, treacherous, spiteful, incompetent worm.

[LordStoneheart]

I originally compared her with movie-Denethor, since I still haven't read LotR, but from what I saw in Wikipedia, book-Denethor is even more likeable (for being a somewhat efficient ruler - at any rate, him ordering the Osgiliath maneuver can't qualify him as comptent) than movie-Denethor (whom I appreciate as a character for dissing the Middle Earth equivalent of a hobo trying to take his seat of power).

PS: What's wrong with axiomatic?

As Nic and PW have said, Movie Denethor is a much weaker character than in the books. I've read them and with that in mind him and Dany are nothing alike other than maybe having to deal with a true heir from the North.

And it's kind of a joke between me and some friends. I'll give you the polite version. We make fun of words like axiomatic and recalcitrent because we find them pretentious. :P

[Nucky Thompson]

He had a certain class and cared little and less for potential pretenders of the Aragorn type, instead of trying to curry favour and secure an important position for him and his line. What is more, Gandalf seemed to have a certain begrudging respect for him, and that is quite something. It is also rather nice how his country's intelligence services (despite being simplified by a Palantir) provide precise and appropriate information, rendering him more 'adequate' to the 'international situation' than the supposed know-it-all, Gandalf. Yes, the singing hobbit part sucked, but alas.

All that makes me think: is Barristan Selmy the ASoIaF Gandalf? Barristan, too, respects Daenerys, all the while recognizing her crazy strain, plus he has to hold down the fort against the Yunkish siege while Daenerys indulges herself with a stroll through the Dothraki Sea (not unlike Gandalf's command of the defense of Minas Tirit against the orks - which btw has at least one parallel in real world history as well). Barristan is a very convenient plot device, too - him working for Robert Baratheon was very convenient way for him to remain employed and to be able to join Daenerys' arc. Besides being a source of historical information, Barristan also serves to insert certain suggestions by GRRM to the readers: for example, he is used to show us how ruthless Roose Bolton is (by having him suggest the execution of a wounded Barristan).

[LordStoneheart]

IMHO, you're overestimating the influence LotR has on GRRM and this series. They're really not very comparable (a reason why any "which is better?" arguments will never work.) Their differences are just too numerous for larger picture parallels.

And call me crazy (you will) but Lady Stoneheart is the ASoIaF Gandalf. :)

[Mithras]

I don't know what Jackson was thinking of. In the film, Denethor is a mean, cowardly, treacherous, spiteful, incompetent worm.

Perhaps that was a cheap Hollywood trick to make Aragorn/Gandalf shine more. Still, it was a destruction of a really well-written, complex character in the books.

[Nucky Thompson]

They are rather uncomparable indeed - ASoIaF is much more diverse (it has banker and an insurance agent!), and doesn't go as deeply into languages (although the entire hype over the Dothraki language on the show sucks) and the folkloristic element is minimized for the benefit of heraldry (Walter Scott style), which I happen to approve. With all that said, there is nothing to contradict the inclusion of certain tropes from LotR that GRRM has an affinity for (and to exclude those he dislikes - such as the clear-cut heroes and the remoteness of everyday elements such as "what Aragorn's tax policy was" - per GRRM).

Perhaps that was a cheap Hollywood trick to make Aragorn/Gandalf shine more. Still, it was a destruction of a really well-written, complex character in the books.

Perhaps for the same reasons that Ramsey is not the fatso with peasant appearance described in the books, or why Stannis has a hollower personality, or why Joffrey was made to ask somewhat sensible politically questions on the show - that's how motion pictures aimed on a subconscious level at the rather uneducated masses of the majority, work.

[Nictarion]

Barristan, too, respects Daenerys, all the while recognizing her crazy strain,

Nope. Never happened. The entire point of the Whitebeard ruse was to make sure Dany wasn't crazy. Then GRRM went a step further and let us into Barristan's head, and at no point does he ever have thoughts about Dany possibly being crazy.

[Salafi Stannis]

Hey uncle Nucky, how's the business?

[The Marquis de Leech]

I'm sticking to Book!Denethor because Movie!Denethor is Jackson's single greatest screw up...

It's not Denethor and Daenerys, it's Denethor and Tywin.

- Both are long-serving, intelligent, competent rulers, who enjoy a status just below "King" (not that it really bothers either of them).

- Both are politicised and machiavellian, preferring to push a particular agenda in the face of a supernatural threat.

- Both lose their beloved wife, and become colder, crueller men afterwards.

- Both have two sons, an elder martial one, whom they favour, and a younger bookish one, whom they scorn - even though they have more in common with the younger son.

- Both have a fatal flaw of pride and vindictiveness.