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The Pale Griffin

Houses, Heraldry and their organization

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It's your kind of shield (finally noticing Aratan's avatar). :)

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Yes, the heraldry is a reference to The Owl Service and its author, Alan Garner. GRRM's a fan. George made the tree of arms for the Ashford tourney himself, and slipped in nods like that one. :)

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Very nice that GRRM gave him the nod like that. Garner is underappreciated. Thanks, Ran. :kiss:

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Very nice that GRRM gave him the nod like that. Garner is underappreciated. Thanks, Ran. :kiss:

Weirdstone of Brisingamen and Moon of Gomrath are probably what got me started on liking fantasy. I read them when I was a kid and loved them. There was a TV series of The Owl Service made in the 70s that was teatime viewing in our house as well.

Aratan.

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The one thing in this area I'm keen on finding out are the house mottos for the Boltons and Freys. I'm guessing, "A Flayed Man Holds No Secrets," may be the Boltons' private motto rather than their official one, and I can't even imagine what the Freys' are. "Two Castles Are Better Than One?" :huh:

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Guest Other-in-law
I can't even imagine what the Freys' are. "Two Castles Are Better Than One?" :huh:

My guess is something along the lines of "None may pass without our leave" or "We hold the passing". Basically bragging about their primary asset: the bridge.

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I second, third, whatever that more extensive information about the chain of vassalage would be very nice.

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This is my first post on this particular forum, so I don't really know if it should go here or if I should make a new thread for it...this is the only thread that seems related to heraldry though.

The sigil of House Baratheon is a crowned stag, right? My question is, did Robert add the crown to the stag when he took the throne, or has the Baratheon stag always had the crown? There's a lot of information about the Baratheons online, but I can't find out if the stag always had the crown.

It doesn't really matter, just a point of curiosity...if the Baratheon dynasty falls out of power, do they go back to using a plain stag? And would a Lannister king change the House sigil to a crowned lion?

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Stile, I hope you'll come back and revive this thread... I too am interested in the extensive heraldry described in the books.

I've wondered and would be curious to read the answers others would give?

I would love it if the crown on the stag did not pre-exist the ascension to the Iron Throne... it is a detail that is never mentioned, and elevates attention to heraldry. If that's true, I think whether they would remove it depends on the situation.

And did the Targaryen arms include crowned dragons? It would not surprise me if some king or another added that convention.

But crowns themselves are not necessarily a problem as landed knights and lordlings can put a crown on their arms.. right?

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Isn't Lyonel Baratheon's sigil described in the Hedgeknight??

Hmmm, i've the Dutch version lying next to me and his coat of arms is described as a black stag with on "gold".

No mention of a crown :)

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I honestly can't remember if it was mentioned in the books, but I know in the HBO show when Bran is having his lesson with Maester Luwin (on identifying sigils/mottos/etc), Luwin prompts him with the Stormlands and Bran replies with something along the lines of:

"House Baratheon, sigil a stag - a crowned stag, now that Robert's king."

Suggesting, of course, that the crown was only added after Robert took the throne.

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Stile, I hope you'll come back and revive this thread... I too am interested in the extensive heraldry described in the books.

Cant help you with the stag question but I can offer you some info on the extensive heraldry described in the book. I hope it helps and I dare you to find something we have missed ;)

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Apparently the founder of House Baratheon, Orys, took the sigil and words from the House of the last Storm King, Argilac the Arrogant. So the crown predates the rebellion, and since Argilac was a king it stands to reason that his house would have a crown in the sigil.

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This is my first post on this particular forum, so I don't really know if it should go here or if I should make a new thread for it...this is the only thread that seems related to heraldry though.

The sigil of House Baratheon is a crowned stag, right? My question is, did Robert add the crown to the stag when he took the throne, or has the Baratheon stag always had the crown? There's a lot of information about the Baratheons online, but I can't find out if the stag always had the crown.

It doesn't really matter, just a point of curiosity...if the Baratheon dynasty falls out of power, do they go back to using a plain stag? And would a Lannister king change the House sigil to a crowned lion?

Its became a crowned stag when he took the throne

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I remember the clip from the show with Luwin and Bran, but Daeron brings up old Storm King history that I wasn't aware of...

I'm glad to see Westerosi heraldry is becoming standardized. Sometimes the descriptions of arms send me back to encyclopedias and medieval history books.

Amazed that GRRM takes the time and doesn't violate too many rules of traditional heraldry in his descriptions.

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As far as I know GRRM wants to keep the heraldry as simple as possibile, for instance he rarely uses quartering, and when he does he quarters with only two sigils. Of course he often disregards the heraldric colors rules but I like it that way.

As for the Baratheon arms here is the caption from The Citadel website: "The last Storm King was the first to be defeated and slain by Aegon and his sisters, and his lands, titles, family name and arms, and even his daughter were given to Orys, illegitimate sibling to Aegon, as the first Lord of Storm’s End."

So I take it that the stag was already crowned before Robert became king.

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Here is something wacky. In real life the English Coat of Arms has a lion (opposite a unicorn=scotland)and sometimes you will see a dragon representing Wales (the harp is ireland, though I am not sure if they still have that anymore)

The symbol Wessex was supposedly a red wyvern.

The symbol of Wales was a red Dragon.

The Lions were brought by William the Conqueror.

In Westeros you have the symbol of the Westerlands being a Lion

and Aegon the Conqueror bringing the dragon.

Interesting reversal no?

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