Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

The Knight of Greenfield

Why weren't Stannis and Renly princes?

Recommended Posts

This has been bugging me for a while, after Robert became King, would that of not made his brothers princes? So it would of been Prince Stannis and Prince Renly.

After Robb was crowned Bran and Rickon became Princes as was Theon when Balon declared himself the second time.

It could be that because Robert didn't like his brothers that much he with held the titles but it just seems a bit odd to me

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Robert's assumption of the throne was based on more precarious claims than that of Robb or Balon.



Likely it was partially a political maneuver on Robert's part, partially to allay the worries of the extant nobility and partially to ensure his brothers didn't get any clever ideas.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

According to the Citadel's records at Old Town, Jon Arryn's journals explain that it's because they changed their titles to the "Artists formerly known as " sometime around Tommen's birth for unknown reasons. stannis even eschewed a name altogether and just went by his sigil for awhile.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Because they were fictional characters and as such couldn't assume real titles.

:Lmao:

This is in the wrong section sir

All asoiaf questions go to the asoiaf part of the boards

This part is general chatter, where we talk about everything else.

BTW welcome to the boards :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Its been so long since I've actually talked about the books, I'll give a real answer just to work that part of my brain again.



My guess is that its because they were both given lands, Storms End and Dragonstone, respectively, and, even if Robert didn't think they would rebel against him, he (or Jon Arryn more likely) didn't want to start the precedent of having royal princes with lands; which is a good way to end up with rebellions a few years down the line. Bran, Rickon, and Theon, they just got the title, not the lands; they weren't threats.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Its been so long since I've actually talked about the books, I'll give a real answer just to work that part of my brain again.

My guess is that its because they were both given lands, Storms End and Dragonstone, respectively, and, even if Robert didn't think they would rebel against him, he (or Jon Arryn more likely) didn't want to start the precedent of having royal princes with lands; which is a good way to end up with rebellions a few years down the line. Bran, Rickon, and Theon, they just got the title, not the lands; they weren't threats.

And yet Targa were often referred to as " the Prince of Dragonstone", see the Rogue Prince Daemon or Prince Baelor Breakspear.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lord is a higher title than prince, at least in the case of Renly, who became lord paramount of the stormlands.



Stannis had his own cadet dynasty on dragonstone; from thenceforth he was basically a house apart from Robert.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Because they had lands and castles of their own, and were thus lords. Same as if Bran or Rickon got lands and castles they would go from prince to lord.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Because they had lands and castles of their own, and were thus lords. Same as if Bran or Rickon got lands and castles they would go from prince to lord.

All Targ heirs apparent had their land and castle - Dragonstone, yet they were Princes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If I ever knew who Robert, Stannis, and Renly's father was, I've forgotten, but I do know that he wasn't a king.



Therefore his sons were not princes prior to Robert becoming King, so it might be that they wouldn't automatically become so after he became King.



What if Robert had become King but there was a Baratheon brother older than he?



What does that do to the line of succession?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Titles are given at the king's pleasure. They would not automatically be princes; Robert would have to have conferred the titles on them, something he apparently didn't do but Robb did.



Also worth noting that the Targaryen princes we know of were all born members of the royal family. Different situation for Rhaegar, Maekar, Daemon, etc. to be born members of the royal family and for Renly and Stannis to become members of it through Robert's Rebellion.



It's also interesting that Stannis was given Dragonstone, the traditional seat of the heir. Even though Stannis was never styled Prince of Dragonstone and thought the seat was a slap in the face, he was still seated where the heir traditionally was, even after Joffrey was born (and Joffrey was also never styled Prince of Dragonstone, that I'm aware of).


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If I ever knew who Robert, Stannis, and Renly's father was, I've forgotten, but I do know that he wasn't a king.

Therefore his sons were not princes prior to Robert becoming King, so it might be that they wouldn't automatically become so after he became King.

What if Robert had become King but there was a Baratheon brother older than he?

What does that do to the line of succession?

Wouldn't happen. The entire reason Robert was able to lead the rebellion was because, as lord of the Stormlands, he had the power and influence to build up an army. If he had an older brother, that older brother would have the authority over the Stormlands and its lords, not Robert.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If I ever knew who Robert, Stannis, and Renly's father was, I've forgotten, but I do know that he wasn't a king.

Therefore his sons were not princes prior to Robert becoming King, so it might be that they wouldn't automatically become so after he became King.

What if Robert had become King but there was a Baratheon brother older than he?

What does that do to the line of succession?

Didn't robert by taking the throne started his own house, Baratheon of king's landing? Like stannis became Baratheon of dragonstone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Didn't robert by taking the throne started his own house, Baratheon of king's landing? Like stannis became Baratheon of dragonstone.

Exactly

There were 3 branches of House Baratheon after the war, with the main branch now being Renly's in the Stormlands while Stannis and Robert were creating new dynasties.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Because Robert didn't wanted them to. Targs siblings or children of Kings were princes, but Baratheons weren't because stuff. It would've make associating Stannis and Renly with kingship easier and that would get in the way of the plot surprises. There wasn't a Lord\prince of Summerhall either.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Because "prince" sounds really effeminate when applied to anyone over 12 years old. IMO, anyway. (don't let the stereotypical show confuse you, Book Renly, while gay, is not effeminate in the slightest).



Seriously though, I don't know. Maybe to differentiate from the Dornish, who are called princes (and princesses, where applicable) rather than "just" lords. Putting distance between the deposed Targaryens and his new dynasty could also be a reason.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×