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Jon Blackfyre

Castle and City layouts

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I don't know about anyone else, but I'd like to see maps of the cities, such as White Harobor, Lannisport, Sunspear, Oldtown, Braavos, Qohor, Astopor, Meeren, etc... I'm thinking maps such as the one of King's Landing by Graig Kreindler on pg. 140 of The Art of Ice and Fire book. That is a great map with awesome pencils and very fine detail, maybe it could be a little bigger, but maps of the major cities such as that one would be awesome.

and in league with the maps it'd be cool to have the layouts, or blueprints of the castles of Westeros, ie. Winterfell, Harrenhall, Storms End, Casterly Rock, the Eryie, the Red Keep, etc... It'd just be nice to actaully have a visual of how the different castles are laid out and structured. mayeb even multiple levels, showing the different floors and whats on them.

So, what are your thoughts, good idea or too much to detail and describe for George?

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City map(s) are not at all impossible. Certainly, we discussed Graig Kreindler with Anne and George.

Blueprints and layouts are pretty unlikely, unless George already has one or two done for his own use. It would be too much work, I think. That said, I'd dearly love one of the Red Keep, anyways. ;)

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Speaking of maps, this is perfectly good thread in which people can actually recommend map artists they know of and admire for us to look at.

As always, we won't necessarily agree with any suggestions, but its entirely possible that we'll come across a great suggestion in a thread like this which will ultimately be implemented.

So, if you know of any artists who specialize in maps, or are just really good at doing them, a name (and, if possible, a link to an official website and/or their work) would be welcome!

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I think Geiger's maps for ASOS were great. Neil Gower's maps for the Malazan novels and The Mark of Ran (surely a sign from fate that he should be considered <ahttp://forum-test.westeros.org/uploads/emoticons/default_wink.png' alt=';)'> ) are pretty good. The full-colour map of Middle-earth done by John Howe is beyond freaking awesome, but I'm guessing he's expensive to hire. Sadly, Karen Wynn Fonstad (the definitive fantasy cartographer) is no longer with us, otherwise she'd be perfect for the job.

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So, what are your thoughts, good idea of too much to detail and describe for George?

I like the idea but I think we could try to limit ourselves.

I don't know what cities will be in the books eventually but KL, Oldtown, Meereen, Qarth, Vaes Dothrak, and Braavos should be included as the cities imo. I know I show a Dany bias but I'm also trying to get the cities we have actually seen already. OTOH, this is a "world" book and maybe Ran and Linda should just go for broke and get all the cities we are interested about in. Or perhaps GRRM could provide the cities that will be in the books later, unless it is too spoilerish, and we get them.

For the castles, I would take the same tack. Winterfell, the Eyrie and the Gates of the Moon, Harrenhal, the Red Keep, Riverrun, the Twins, Sunspear, the Hightower, Darry (at different stages), Storm's End, Dragonstone, Castle Black, Queenscrown, and others I'm surely forgetting.

SPOILER: Future Books
We will probably see Casterly Rock as GRRM said we would see it (before the split). So include that one too. GRRM has said we will meet Willas. I don't know how we will meet him outside of Highgarden (though I'm sure others can come up with ways we can). So maybe include Highgarden.

I am a little concerned about taking George's time. He may not have all the geography and structure for some of these cities built out yet and will have to make them up. He will want to do a good job on that creation and that will take time. Time away from ADWD and/or later volumes.

But I really want a world book of some sort so I'm excited about this project too.

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I'd say George doesn't have even anything close to a majority of cities and castles mapped out in his head. I think King's Landing, Braavos (George has a map of Braavos that he constantly revised as he worked), and perhaps Winterfell are the only sites he has a real strong handle on (and, more importantly, maps or at least notes on).

So .... it'd be lovely to get maps of all these other cities and castles, but don't get your hopes too high up. :) We will definitely bring it up when we get to discussing the maps a bit more, though, and see what comes of it.

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Interesting. I'd expect a map of King's Landing as fairly inevitable and Oldtown, the Red Keep and Winterfell as probable. Beyond that the descriptions in the book are good for most locales. I don't see what a map of Storm's End or Riverrun would add to the already clear descriptions in the novels. Sure, I'd love to have them, but I don't feel the book lacks for not having them. OTOH, having built up a pretty interesting picture of Winterfell in my mind, it'd be interesting to see how close it is to George's vision.

I think a map of Pentos would be interesting as well, but again not essential.

Will the new maps get scales or is George still against them?

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By "I think", I should note that that's just my guess. In any case, I've never heard GRRM say he had maps for castle layouts. Cities, yes, but not castles.

Doesn't mean he hasn't got them, but I suspect he doesn't have anything beyond notes or, I suppose, a basic plan for select places. Which, I suppose, if he does have, we could perhaps convince him to let us use for the book... hrm. ;)

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Well, if Karen Wynn Fonstad hadn't died, I'd recommend her. But sadly, she died last year. I don't know if there is anyone quite as good, but maybe the WOTC folks have somebody that is good enough.

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Arya's in Braavos. George was complaining that it was hell keeping all his canals, bridges, and islands straight when he kept revising the map and said something to the effect that he's no longer sure where everything is supposed to be. ;)

I know there's a Free Cities map planned for ADwD, and maybe he did say there was a Braavos map too -- I can't recall. If so, though, yeah, I'd expect the book to have a map of Braavos. :)

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Personally, I am less concerned with the lands overseas than I am with Westeros itself. The map of Westeros in Feast was better and more detailed than what we got in the previous three books, but it would be great, considering that the entire story is really focused there, on having an official, accurate map of that continent. I mean, where the hell is Crackclaw Point? Where are the strongholds or castles of the various families? And so on. Everything above and beyond this is icing on the cake, in my opinion. Of course, considering that I am thrilled that this book is being done in the first place, well.....

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Thanks, Ran. I had serious brainfart.

Also, I would love a detailed definitive map of Westeros (getting all the islands correct) and finally, FINALLY putting the Tower of Joy on there. ;)

Also, for the total nerd completists (I would not cry if it weren't done), a map/graphical depiction of farming/natural resources and musterable armies in each area of Westeros (remember all the fighting we had whether Dorne could muster enough men to invade? also, see the Carnivorous Horse debate.) It's just a thought, but touches on debates that are continually hashed out here, but with no official data, it's really tough to be definitive.

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Guest Other-in-law
For the castles, I would take the same tack. Winterfell, the Eyrie and the Gates of the Moon, Harrenhal, the Red Keep, Riverrun, the Twins, Sunspear, the Hightower, Darry (at different stages), Storm's End, Dragonstone, Castle Black, Queenscrown, and others I'm surely forgetting. [

Queen's crown sounds completely unnecessary...it's just a single tower on an island! Not much source for confusion ther, unlike the Red Keep say. The twins are pretty easy to visualise as well, imo. I think the Night Fort might become increasingly important in the series, and was certainly important historically.

I'd like to see Pyke as well. The ones that have gotten a description in some depth but are still hard to imagine precisely seem more apt than generic places of minor importance. And the most visually unique places (Eyrie, Harrenhall, Storm's End, Pyke, Dragonstone) are all good.

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Personally, I am less concerned with the lands overseas than I am with Westeros itself. The map of Westeros in Feast was better and more detailed than what we got in the previous three books, but it would be great, considering that the entire story is really focused there, on having an official, accurate map of that continent. I mean, where the hell is Crackclaw Point? Where are the strongholds or castles of the various families? And so on. Everything above and beyond this is icing on the cake, in my opinion. Of course, considering that I am thrilled that this book is being done in the first place, well.....

Crackclaw Point is the long peninsula north-east of Duskendale and Rosby, forming the southern shore of the mouth of the Trident. Check out Ran's mega-map here.

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Yet another thing that George might not want to be pinned down on - distances. Maps usually have a measurement somewhere saying X inches is Y miles. Knowing just how many miles it is to the now-pseudo ruins of Winterfell from King's Landing is always something that I have wanted to know.

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George recently said that yes, you can use the Wall in the published maps as a scale that represents 300 miles. :)

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George recently said that yes, you can use the Wall in the published maps as a scale that represents 300 miles. :)

Really, he's finally gone against that don't use the wall as a measuring stick quote. So that'd be the AFFC map then that is to scale, right?

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I'd say the map in ASoS is also, and the GoO map too, although since different artists put them together there may be slight variations here and there. :)

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Any word on the scale of the ASoS map of Slaver's Bay? Mind you, we already have a distance for it (160-odd miles from Meereen to Yunkai, IIRC), I just can't remember if that matches up with the Westeros map scales.

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