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Aegon, Tyrion and a cyvasse game.

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(yes, <--- is Aegon, when he was younger and more docile and obedient. Look how happy Jon is because of that...!)

The infamous Cyvasse game is often used to make believe Prince Aegon is spoiled, crazy and very Joffrey-like. He is definitely none of that (yeah, a bit spoiled, that I would accept. He is, after all, a Targaryen, even though maybe a fake one). Another misconception is that Tyrion completely fooled and manipulated Aegon, hence, the kid is weak and easily manageable. That's not completely true either.

First. The chapter is Tyrion's pov, and aside every virtue Aegon could have, he's still inexperienced while Tyrion is older and savvier. But of course, the scene itself, when taken out of context, could been used to make Aegon is treating Tyrion wrong, because that's what Tyrion sees and feels. But the scene is a continuation of another one before, as the game happens AFTER they found the Stone Men. Before that, Aegon has a good treatment of Tyrion, EXCEPT for one single part. We'll get to that.

This is what happens when they first find the Stone Men.

Griff drew his longsword. "Yollo, light the torches. Lad, take Lemore back to her cabin and stay with her."
Young Griff gave his father a stubborn look. "Lemore knows where her cabin is. I want to stay."
"We are sworn to protect you," Lemore said softly.

"I don't need to be protected. I can use a sword as well as Duck. I'm half a knight."
"And half a boy," said Griff. "Do as you are told. Now."
The youth cursed under his breath and flung his pole down onto the deck. The sound echoed queerly in the fog, and for a moment it was as if poles were falling around them. "Why should I run and hide? Haldon is staying, and Ysilla. Even Hugor."
"Aye," said Tyrion, "but I'm small enough to hide behind a duck." He thrust half a dozen torches into the brazier's glowing coals and watched the oiled rags flare up. Don' t stare at the fire, he told himself. The flames would leave him night blind.
"You're a dwarf, " Young Griff said scornfully.

In Mythology, Griffins protect valuable things. And that's what Jon does here. But he not only protects Aegon. He overprotects him. Whether because he's the end to a goal or because he actually loves him as a son (because he IS his son: he has raised him as his own in the same way Ned has raised the other Jon), he still treats him like a boy. Aegon is not a boy: he's a grown man according to Westeros customs. And he's going to be a King, everybody tells him that. Yet, he's a virgin King who is been called "boy" and "lad" all around and he still sleeps in the same bedroom than his dad. We have Jon's pov and we know why he does what he does and we understand him. Aegon doesn't. He definitely has no idea Jon loved his dad and feels guilty about his death. Not only because that's something private he wouldn't like others to know (specially Aegon), but also because Jon isn't exactly a very communicative man. And without that information, he doesn't fully appreciates his efforts. Hence, his natural wish to rebel and be more independent, which is normal. But that doesn't come from Tyrion: that happens due to his relationship and dynamic with the people of the Shy Maid and his father.

Back to Tyrion, he's rescued and things are normal once again. Kinda. Despite Tyrion has been told Aegon ordered them to rescue him, he has not nice thoughts for him.

Young Griff's greeting was less effusive. The princeling was in a sullen mood, angry that he had been forced to remain on the Shy Maid instead of going ashore with Yandry and Ysilla. "We only want to keep you safe," Lemore told him. "These are unsettled times."
[...]
I know how to use a sword,” Young Griff was insisting.
“Even the bravest of your forebears kept his Kingsguard close about him in times of peril.”

[..] She (Lemore) turned back to Prince Aegon. “You are not the only one who must needs hide.”
The lad did not seem appeased. The perfect prince but still half a boy for all that, with little and less experience of the world and all its woes. Prince Aegon,” said Tyrion, “since we’re both stuck aboard this boat, perhaps you will honor me with a game of cyvasse to while away the hours?”
The prince gave him a wary look. “I am sick of cyvasse.”
“Sick of losing to a dwarf, you mean?”
That pricked the lad’s pride, just as Tyrion had known it would.

Tyrion is pure sweetness here. And he calls him Prince Aegon, unlike Griff who calls him boy and lad. But Tyrion wants something. Tyrion hasn't forgotten about Aegon calling him a dwarf, scornfully. He has tried to find something and he has found pride is his soft spot. After all, he's a Prince. When they start to play, they discuss Dany, and Tyrion makes him realise some awful truths: Dany won't accept him just because he wants. He is definitely not wrong here, but his motivations are definitely not good intended.

Aegon's mouth twisted in fury. "I will not come to my aunt a beggar. I will come to her a kinsman, with an army."
"A small army." There, that' s made him good and angry. The dwarf could not help but think of Joffrey. I have a gift for angering princes.
"Queen Daenerys has a large one, and no thanks to you." Tyrion moved his crossbows.
"Say what you want. She will be my bride, Lord Connington will see to it. I trust him as much as if he were my own blood."

This scene is quite telling. Very telling.

First, Tyrion sees himself as a dwarf here, while he also sees Aegon as Joffrey. Not only he's projecting his own feelings for his nephew here, he's reliving them. He sees what he wants to see here, because it's his PoV. And we readers are kinda fooled into see the same. And while Aegon, despite calling him dwarf in a moment of rage, has saved his life, Tyrion wants to punish him for no real reason: he has a gift for angering princes.

And two, Tyrion also found out a second soft spot of Aegon: Griff.

"Perhaps you should be the fool instead of me. Trust no one, my prince. Not your chainless maester, not your false father, not the gallant Duck nor the lovely Lemore nor these other fine friends who grew you from a bean. Above all, trust not the cheesemonger, nor the Spider, nor this little dragon queen you mean to marry. All that mistrust will sour your stomach and keep you awake by night, 'tis true, but better that than the long sleep that does not end." The dwarf pushed his black dragon across a range of mountains. "But what do I know? Your false father is a great lord, and I am just some twisted little monkey man.

Personally, I think this is plain cruel. Aegon has only known one father: Jon. Despite any kind of wish for independence he might have, he still loves Jon, despite he's not his real father, he sees him very much like he is.

And Tyrion pretty much says "you know what? dont' trust him. He's wrong. Hear me". And when Aegon hears him both in the game but also about his advice for Dany (which isn't completely bad), Tyrion says "hahaha.. I'm an evil monkey! I was lying!!".

The prince stared at the playing board. “My dragon—”
“—is too far away to save you. You should have moved her to the center of the battle.”
“But you said—”
“I lied. Trust no one. And keep your dragon close.”
Young Griff jerked to his feet and kicked over the board. Cyvasse pieces flew in all directions, bouncing and rolling across the deck of the Shy Maid. “Pick those up,” the boy commanded.
He may well be a Targaryen after all.

But of course! Let's blame the kid's behaviour on his genes and not on the fact Tyrion has been trolling him and bullying him all the way, calling the man he knows as his father fake and mean intended, despite such kid actually put his father's life in danger in order to save him (which indeed happened at the end. Thanks again, Tyrion!) and has gotten nothing but good intentions towards Tyrion. No. Tyrion did nothing wrong. It's Aegon the one who is completely Aerys Targaryen levels of crazy here: Aegon is the mean bully.

We left Tyrion's povs about Aegon (because he got lost, ha ha!) and we have now Jon's povs. We're left to think Tyrion has influenced Aegon. Which maybe is not completely true:

Aegon and Griff are now on their way to the Golden Company, and remember Tyrion has told Aegon trust no one, specially his fake father.

"I like the sound of that. My army." A smile flashed across his face, then vanished. "Are they, though? They're sellswords. Yollo warned me to trust no one."

"There is wisdom in that," Griff admitted. It might have been different if Blackheart still commanded, but Myles Toyne was four years dead, and Homeless Harry Strickland was a different sort of man. He would not say that to the boy, however. That dwarf had already planted enough doubts in his young head.

Griff wasn't present during the Cyvasse game. But Halden was. And he probably told Griff everything. Anyway, Griff keeps talking:

"Not every man is what he seems, and a prince especially has good cause to be wary … but go too far down that road, and the mistrust can poison you, make you sour and fearful. " King Aerys was one such. By the end, even Rhaegar saw that plain enough. "You would do best to walk a middle course. Let men earn your trust with leal service … but when they do, be generous and openhearted."
The boy nodded. "I will remember."

Compare that to Tyrion's advice:

mistrust can poison you, make you sour and fearful. "You would do best to walk a middle course

vs

All that mistrust will sour your stomach and keep you awake by night, 'tis true, but better that than the long sleep that does not end.

Connington knows the exact words to calm down the prince. And, his advice is definitely better, because he's also speaking of his own experience with Aerys, the kid's grandpa. Also, he wishes Aegon well. He doesn't have the same intentions Tyrion had. And Aegon listens to him. He does trust Jon.

trust "not the gallant Duck", said Tyrion:

[...]Before them went Ser Rolly Duckfield, a snow-white cloak streaming from his shoulders.

A solid man, and true, Connington thought as he watched Duck dismount, but not worthy of the Kingsguard. He had tried his best to dissuade the prince from giving Duckfield that cloak, pointing out that the honor might best be held in reserve for warriors of greater renown whose fealty would add luster to their cause, and the younger sons of great lords whose support they would need in the coming struggle, but the boy would not be moved. "Duck will die for me if need be," he had said, "and that's all I require in my Kingsguard.

~~

"[...]Please, be seated. Ser Rolly, we'll have no further need of you for now."
"No, I want Duck to stay." The prince sat.

So, Aegon hasn't followed Tyrion's advice about trust at all. The only thing that looks like he's actually doing is going first to Westeros. But, here happened something that Tyrion couldn't foreseen: Dany wasn't going to Westeros and she was out of reach. The GC is wary about her because they can't go to her, and they don't want to sail without her either.

"Then put your hopes on me," he (Aegon) said. "Daenerys is Prince Rhaegar's sister, but I am Rhaegar's son. I am the only dragon that you need."

Griff put a black-gloved hand upon Prince Aegon's shoulder.
"Spoken boldly," he said, "but think what you are saying."
"I have," the lad insisted. "Why should I go running to my aunt as if I were a beggar? My claim is better than her own. Let her come to me … in Westeros."

Tyrions' advice this time is well used by Aegon to convince the GC about him being trustful. He's not "following" Tyrion's advice, he's using it to his favour. At the end, Aegon has found a way to use Tyrion to his own benefit: he's not the idiot people think he is. Definitely.

But, was a good advice? It was mean-intended, that's for sure. He wanted to get even for what Joffrey did, even though Aegon has no blame at all. Either way, the advice resulted useful for Aegon, as he used it to convince the GC. Also, he's giving Dany good reasons to join her for the time she decides to return: he's not fighting for his own sake, but for restoration of House Targaryen, which is also Dany's House. It was Tyrion the one who suffered at the end, because he was taken East, when Aegon and the GC parted West, and hence, they couldn't save him. Aegon outsmarted Tyrion, in a way, even when he didn't intended to do it. Tyrion was left to wander and got slaved.

Karma is a bitch, Tyrion.

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People have seriously been saying that Aegon is like Joffrey? I don't believe it!


Aegon is obviously a reasonable person, he listens to good advice, strong-willed, learned, brave, well-spoken etc. He is a little reckless, perhaps a little foolish, but he is not a coward, he is not dumb and he is not a sadistic spoiled brat. I agree with everything you have said.


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Yea i will never get why people compare Aegon to joffery just because he destroyed a lost game of canvass in frustration. Hell Robb himself threw down his own crown out of frustration too (although his was bigger, but hey you gotta let it out some times).



I agree with you Jon Con guy was reasonable even wanted to save tyrion himself and he used his advise and never took it to heart all that much. He still trust certain people they he knows has earned it.


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At the time of that advice, they assumed that Dany was coming West and at Volantis she would marry fAegon. Tyrion felt that he would not be needed in such a union and perhaps Dany would want his head as a wedding gift. Bringing these two dragons together does not work for Tyrion's own game. Tyrion was hoping to be useful to fAegon in Westeros and when Dany comes to Westeros, he would have earned his place. At that time, Tyrion had earned nothing and all he knew about the dragons were written and given to Griff.


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Agreed. That cyvasse incident is often blown out of proportion, and like I said in another thread, Aegon actually saved Tyrion's life, which as far from Joffrey as one can get



Also, my mind's definitely in a gutter because I thought that was Rhaegar in your avatar...going down...on JonCon... :dunce:


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Good post. I for one am getting really sick and tired about hearing how one tantrum as a teenager makes you Joffrey 2.0.



I honestly wonder how our other candidates for the Throne would take his behaviour?



Dany - I AM THE BLOOD OF THE DRAGON I WILL NOT BE MOCKED


Stannis - You dare chide me? Let's hope the theories about your King's blood are true.


Tommen - Kittens! Oh, mommy said to peel the skin from your face inch by inch


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I honestly wonder how our other candidates for the Throne would take his behaviour?

Dany - I AM THE BLOOD OF THE DRAGON I WILL NOT BE MOCKED

Stannis - You dare chide me? Let's hope the theories about your King's blood are true.

Tommen - Kittens! Oh, mommy said to peel the skin from your face inch by inch

Don't forget Euron :lol:

Tbh, Tyrion knew what he was doing. He knew Aegon wouldn't get back at him, either because he thought him to be a good kid or because he knew Griff wouldn't allow it.

Also, my mind's definitely in a gutter because I thought that was Rhaegar in your avatar...going down...on JonCon... :dunce:

That's so wrong :lol:

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Don't forget Euron :lol:

Tbh, Tyrion knew what he was doing. He knew Aegon wouldn't get back at him, either because he thought him to be a good kid or because he knew Griff wouldn't allow it.

That's so wrong :lol:

Indeed, a grave mistake on my part

Euron - Here you go brother, a gift...I'm sure he'll make you laugh.

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Yes, Tyrion was trying to make Aegon angry, but I don't think it was entirely without reason. He might enjoy telling Argon, just as he enjoy strolling people in general, but I think it went beyond just Tyrion's amusement. By this point he (thinks he) has figured out what's going on on the Shy Maid and who Aegon truly is and he decides to test him before throwing in his lot with him. There's a lesson hidden there, but onlyif Aegon is smart enough to find it and that's why his childish reaction is disappointing because he ignores it. It goes beyond trust no one - though that is a dose of reality Aegon desperately needs too - he's telling him that he's getting himself into a situation he knows very little about and has not thought through at all, his strings being pulled by other people. It also tells him to play to his strengths and to use his own judgement. Y following Tyrions plan, without having the knowledge of the Game and the relevant players that Tyrion has, he repeats the same mistake that cost him the cyvasse game.

I don't find a suggestion that people around Aegon might not be as devoted to him as he thinks hurtful, even if that includes his own father figure. After all, he has no reason to believe Tyrion or take his word for it. Given that Tyrion is still very much a stranger he should be able to easily brush his opinions about his trusted companions aside if he feels he knows them better. The main reason he seems to get upset is Tyrion managing go trick him in a game and throwing a tantrum over that is pretty immature.

That doesn't make him a cruel bully on Joff's level by any means, but it does IMHO showcase his lack of leadership qualities.

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Aegon ordered Jon to save Tyrion's life. There's no way he's even near Joffrey.


I want to see him on the Iron Throne by the end of book six, even if just for a while.


Fake or not, he was shaped to be the perfect king.


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Aegon ordered Jon to save Tyrion's life. There's no way he's even near Joffrey.

I want to see him on the Iron Throne by the end of book six, even if just for a while.

Fake or not, he was shaped to be the perfect king.

I want to see him on the Throne too. Not because he's perfect, because he isn't. But because he is a nice improvement on a bloodthirsty crazy person, a drunk and a bloodthirsty crazy person.

Tommen sadly is too easily manipulated. Poor lad.

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I don't think even Tyrion believes Aegon to be Joffrey 2.0.


He doesn't actually even say that. He reminds himself of Joffrey in the context of "angering princes" - or in other words manipulating powerful people with words.



In the first 3 books Tyrion relies on his being a Lannister as his main power. He, at least in his own mind, has power only by being Tywin's son, and Jaime's brother. These privileges no longer exist for him and he has to rely on his own skills, which he is trying to figure out as he is very painfully aware of what he does not have. And so, he is putting his intellect which was so far mainly used for witty remarks, into attempting to manipulate Aegon. In a way , its a sort of practice, he wants to see how well it works. And it does.



Aegon is not a bad kid, but Tyrion is able to very quickly find his weak point and manages to use that to effect him.


Its a serious weakness on Aegon side that he doesn't even see it. And this is not LF/Varys in their top performance. Its Tyrion making his first move in the world of manipulation.



That doesn't mean he is cruel, or crazy. But he can be manipulated and controlled easily unless he learns to control himself better.


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Tyrion is giving the kid excellent advice and teaching him a valuable lesson--trust no one.



If there were one house in Westeros smarter than all the others combined, their words would be "Trust no one", and they'd be the better for it.



Remember Jon sparring with the new guys and he tells one to come over to him, then knocks him down and tells him that he's dead? "Trust no one."


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Tyrion is giving the kid excellent advice and teaching him a valuable lesson--trust no one.

If there were one house in Westeros smarter than all the others combined, their words would be "Trust no one", and they'd be the better for it.

Remember Jon sparring with the new guys and he tells one to come over to him, then knocks him down and tells him that he's dead? "Trust no one."

That's not a good lesson, nor a good advice either. Again, compare his advice with Jon's. Tyrion says "trust no one" while Jon says "be careful who you trust". That's completely different.

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Yeah trusting no one is exactly what Aerys did in his later years. Its why he became the Mad King. It was definitely bad advice. Atleast Jon came and gave him some balanced advice on the matter.



Excellent post, just not quite sure what you mean in that Aegon "outsmarted" Tyrion.




Oh btw, I love you Red Beard....miss your old Avatar lol definitely one of my favorite posters!


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Excellent post, just not quite sure what you mean in that Aegon "outsmarted" Tyrion.

He ended up triumphant when Tyrion did not. Unintentionally, though.

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That's not a good lesson, nor a good advice either. Again, compare his advice with Jon's. Tyrion says "trust no one" while Jon says "be careful who you trust". That's

completely different.

I don't think Tyrion was being quite so literal and his trust no one and be careful who you trust amount to pretty much the same thing at the end of the day. He was just telling Aegon that everyone has their own motives and biases that you need to consider before making life-altering decisions based on them. And he's at least partially right - Jon does have secrets he keeps from Aegon, which might or might not prove to be important to their campaign.

There's more to Tyrion's advice than that though - there's also:

  • don't follow someone else's plan if you don't understand it

trust your instincts and play to your strengths

even good advice can be folly if applied at the wrong time

don't rely on people you know nothing about to act in the way you expect

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