Aegon, Tyrion and a cyvasse game.

[Danelle]

I don't think Tyrion was being quite so literal and his trust no one and be careful who you trust amount to pretty much the same thing at the end of the day. He was just telling Aegon that everyone has their own motives and biases that you need to consider before making life-altering decisions based on them. And he's at least partially right - Jon does have secrets he keeps from Aegon, which might or might not prove to be important to their campaign.

I agree, especially with the bolded part.

I think that Tyrion gave Aegon the best advice that anyone can give to someone who aspires to rule as a monarch.

Until that point, everyone treated Aegon as a precious child, who needs to be constantly protected. Yet, Robb Stark, who was slightly younger than Aegon had already became a King and lead his men to battles, whereas Jon Snow, Loras Tyrell, Jaime Lannister had already been exposed to dangers by the time they reached Aegon's age.

Until Tyrion had that conversation with Aegon, JonCon was treating Aegon as if he was a child, whereas Tyrion spoke to him while taking in consideration that at some point, perhaps sooner than he expects, he will lead and rule.

Another thing to consider, is that Aerys trusted others and the results were disastrous.

• Jon Con, he was the second to replace Tywin as a Hand. This appointment was a big mistake, since Jon Con unlike Tywin, didn not care for victory but he was seeking personal glory and a way to live his fantasy by slaying Rhaegar's enemy.

Varys, he was by Aerys' side constantly, doing his best to alienate him from Rhaella, Rhaegar and Tywin.

Pycelle, I guess that he realised that the Targaryens were doomed and wisely decided to convince Aerys to open the gates to Tywin, even though a fool would have known that by this point Tywin had no reason to defend the Targaryens.

Jon Arryn, seriously Aerys expected from Jon to execute two boys, that thought of him as a father, and that was after Aerys had killed Jon's nephew and heir, Elbert.

Tywin, we are told that Aerys gradually envied and feared Tywin, the only thing that protected him was his status as a King. Yet Aerys had offended Tywin numerous times, such as when he behaved in an inappropriate manner during the bedding, when he deprived Tywin from his golden son, when he refused to marry Rhaegar to Tywin's daughter. Tywin had no reason to love or care for the Targaryens, especially for Aerys, yet Aerys actually believed that even after the Trident, Tywin was there to protect him....

Jaime, Aerys thought that it was safer to keep Jaime close to him, until Jaime's blade slashed his throat.

The point is that Kings ought to demand assistance from their subjects, listen to their advice, consider their warnings and respect their opinion, but under no circumstance should they allow their advisors to rule in their place.

When they trust someone completely, even if that someone turns out to be a noble knight, devoted to the Targaryens, this doesn't mean that the outcome will be victorious for the king.

In Aegon's case, he trusts JonCon but it may turn out that everything he has been told is a lie.

[Chebyshov]

But of course! Let's blame the kid's behaviour on his genes and not on the fact Tyrion has been trolling him and bullying him all the way, calling the man he knows as his father fake and mean intended, despite such kid actually put his father's life in danger in order to save him (which indeed happened at the end. Thanks again, Tyrion!) and has gotten nothing but good intentions towards Tyrion. No. Tyrion did nothing wrong. It's Aegon the one who is completely Aerys Targaryen levels of crazy here: Aegon is the mean bully.

How did I not see this before?! Wonderful. It summed up all my thoughts on their interaction very well. Tyrion is trying is damned hardest to provoke Aegon their entire conversation (when Aegon is rightfully in a bad mood to begin with) because..."oh heehee I'm a demon monkey who angers princes!" JFC, Tyrion, you're like 28. Tyrion is incapable of communicating with anyone without falling back on his "I will proactively make them hate me before they have a chance to come to that conclusion on their own!" shtick. He fears rejection of his character so much that he brings it on himself, giving him some control over the situation (and then of course thinking about how unfair his lot is). He's an incredibly broken guy, especially in ADWD, so it amazes me how many people take his thoughts about Aegon=Joffrey to heart; all Tyrion is saying is that "he's a young prince who I enjoy pissing off."

Aegon is young and understandably thirsty to prove himself, but there's no indication that he's a cruel or bad-tempered guy. His three words have been so twisted over time. I'm glad to see a post that explains Aegon's thought-process so succinctly, and hopefully this combats his mystifyingly bad reputation.

[Michael Snow]

Insert JoNCon's Red Beard's epic original post here.

What a tremendous post. Thank you, good Ser.

:cheers:

[Balerion the one eared cat]

(yes, <--- is Aegon, when he was younger and more docile and obedient. Look how happy Jon is because of that...!)

Awhhh, I thought it was Rhaegar. It's almost funnier if it's Rhaegar...

[Ser RoddyRuinuous]

I agree. Tyrion, a character who specializes in annoying people, managed to piss off a teenager =/= Aegon is like Joffrey. Tyrion LIKES pissing people off, and he's good at it. That he manages to piss off Aegon while playing a game, and Aegon doesn't do anything about it except the equivalent of throwing his XBOX controller on the floor, does not mean Aegon is Joffrey. It's not like he had Tyrion fight people to the death or had his tongue torn out with pincers. He just got pissed at being pwned.

[Chebyshov]

Awhhh, I thought it was Rhaegar. It's almost funnier if it's Rhaegar...

Well it's Rhaegar today

[JonCon's Red Beard]

When they trust someone completely, even if that someone turns out to be a noble knight, devoted to the Targaryens, this doesn't mean that the outcome will be victorious for the king.

In Aegon's case, he trusts JonCon but it may turn out that everything he has been told is a lie.

I think that's kinda the point Jon tries to make. Mistrust is fine, specially for a King/Prince (who is often surrounded by yes-men and ass-kissers), but complete and absolute mistrust will turn into paranoia and drive you mad.

And of course, finding out "the truth" could cause a rupture between them, if Aegon believes Jon has been part of the lie, which we know is not true.

Awhhh, I thought it was Rhaegar. It's almost funnier if it's Rhaegar...

It is Rhaegar now. At that time, the av was this: http://i.imgur.com/8s0SYlA.gif

[Danelle]

I think that's kinda the point Jon tries to make. Mistrust is fine, specially for a King/Prince (who is often surrounded by yes-men and ass-kissers), but complete and absolute mistrust will turn into paranoia and drive you mad.

And of course, finding out "the truth" could cause a rupture between them, if Aegon believes Jon has been part of the lie, which we know is not true.

But don't you think that the quote about mistrust was deliberately used by JonCon, since it also applies to him?

The shame of the lie still stuck in his craw, but Varys had insisted it was necessary.

"We want no songs about the gallant exile," the eunuch had tittered, in that mincing voice of his.

"Those who die heroic deaths are long remembered, thieves and drunks and cravens soon forgotten."

What does a eunuch know of a man' s honor? Griff had gone along with the Spider's scheme for the boy's sake, but that did not mean he liked it any better. Let me live long enough to see the boy sit the Iron Throne, and Varys will pay for that slight and so much more. Then we' ll see who' s soon forgotten.

JonCon doesn't like Varys and in fact he is wary of him, in fact he has his own agenda concerning the eunuch and he plans to punish him when the time comes.

JonCon trusted Varys and didn't question Aegon's paternity. In fact, in his POV it is obvious that JonCon is convinced that the boy is the son of Rhaegar and Elia.

In a way, JonCon was desperate enough to believe that Aegon had survived that he doesn't want to question Varys, even though he has no reason to trust him at all (btw the bolded part always confused me. What does he mean? JonCon doesn't loathe Varys simply because he forced him to ruin his reputation but there seems to be something more. If he is referring to Varys manipulating Aerys and turning him against Rhaegar, then why all of a sudden he is plotting to restore his line?)

If in the next book rumours begun to spread about Jon being the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar, how will JonCon react then? He will likely wonder whether he is supporting the true Targaryen and even begun to suspect whether Aegon is an impostor. In that casehe will definately be sour and fearful.

[unitron]

If Tyrion was trying to make the kid angry, it was to see what he'd blurt out that he was supposed to keep secret.

Knowledge is power.

[The Holy Goat]

Agree with the OP. Aegon seem to be a promising youth, and though he isn't flawless, he isn't some monstrous madman.

[John Doe]

Yes, Tyrion was trying to make Aegon angry, but I don't think it was entirely without reason. He might enjoy telling Argon, just as he enjoy strolling people in general, but I think it went beyond just Tyrion's amusement. By this point he (thinks he) has figured out what's going on on the Shy Maid and who Aegon truly is and he decides to test him before throwing in his lot with him. There's a lesson hidden there, but onlyif Aegon is smart enough to find it and that's why his childish reaction is disappointing because he ignores it. It goes beyond trust no one - though that is a dose of reality Aegon desperately needs too - he's telling him that he's getting himself into a situation he knows very little about and has not thought through at all, his strings being pulled by other people. It also tells him to play to his strengths and to use his own judgement. Y following Tyrions plan, without having the knowledge of the Game and the relevant players that Tyrion has, he repeats the same mistake that cost him the cyvasse game.

I don't find a suggestion that people around Aegon might not be as devoted to him as he thinks hurtful, even if that includes his own father figure. After all, he has no reason to believe Tyrion or take his word for it. Given that Tyrion is still very much a stranger he should be able to easily brush his opinions about his trusted companions aside if he feels he knows them better. The main reason he seems to get upset is Tyrion managing go trick him in a game and throwing a tantrum over that is pretty immature.

That doesn't make him a cruel bully on Joff's level by any means, but it does IMHO showcase his lack of leadership qualities.

:agree:

And I think that Duck might be a spy.