Trial by Folly: The Arianne Martell Reread Project [TWOW Arianne I spoilers]

[Mal Malenkirk]

There's also the whole, Cersei is a poster child for internalized misogyny whereas Arianne is actually an empowered female thing. Not that it's a difference that matters nearly as much as Arianne's continual self-doubt and deprecation vs. Cersei's inability to self-reflect, or (post QM plot failure) Arianne's number one priority being the well-being of those she's involved in her schemes (Cedra, her co-conspirators) and vs. say, Cersei's treatment of the Blue Bard or the Kettleblacks. Fuck, Cersei is willing to throw anyone under the bus to get out of her position, whereas Arianne tells Doran outright, "the buck stops here."

I appreciate what you say and agree, especially the first part, except for the bolded.

The well being of her friend is her number two, priority. Obviously enough her personal ambitions come slighly ahead of the well-being of her friends, or else she wouldn't put the later in danger in service of the former! But it's undeniable she's not callous about it, the way Cersei use people without an afterthought. She cares about them and when it seemed her primary concern was crushed, her first thought went to her friends as seen in that dialogue with Doran you quoted. As ambitious people go, she's one of the kindest in the serie.

[voodooqueen126]

Doing this re-read makes me super sad that Arianne won't be in the show.

[Chebyshov]

Doing this re-read makes me super sad that Arianne won't be in the show.

And to add insult to injury, we're likely going to get quotes from the "fire and blood" conversation included, but stripped of all its context. So it will just enough to remind us what could have been :(.

Any further talk about Arianne as James Bond(which I encourage) should go in this thread.

^(from another thread)

I love how Arianne and Arys completely reverse the genders of this gif: http://i.imgur.com/4Id2KXf.gif

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

And to add insult to injury, we're likely going to get quotes from the "fire and blood" conversation included, but stripped of all its context. So it will just enough to remind us what could have been :(.

^(from another thread)

I love how Arianne and Arys completely reverse the genders of this gif: http://i.imgur.com/4Id2KXf.gif

Perhaps this season we're being totally reminded or Myrcella, and the sweetness that she is, and then next season, we get Arianne's storyline, only a little bit faster...

Here arent that many chapters for her, and they are spread out over 2 huge books. They cant imprison her in episode 5, season 5, and free her in season 6, episode 4 or something.. no one (besides readers) will remember who she is

[Hrafntýr]

Perhaps this season we're being totally reminded or Myrcella, and the sweetness that she is, and then next season, we get Arianne's storyline, only a little bit faster...

Here arent that many chapters for her, and they are spread out over 2 huge books. They cant imprison her in episode 5, season 5, and free her in season 6, episode 4 or something.. no one (besides readers) will remember who she is

I'm glad I'm not the only one who still thinks that possible! I think they could just be substituting "Trystane is the heir to Dorne" for Arianne's understanding that Doran planned to name Quentyn heir, with her riding in to claim her birthright down the line (in season 6, that is). I admit that it's implausible that no one outside of Dorne would know that Doran has an elder daughter who by Dornish law should be heir, but I also think it's implausible that Doran would send Trys to Dany if Trys were his only child. I haven't given up hope!

[Julia Martell]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who still thinks that possible! I think they could just be substituting "Trystane is the heir to Dorne" for Arianne's understanding that Doran planned to name Quentyn heir, with her riding in to claim her birthright down the line (in season 6, that is). I admit that it's implausible that no one outside of Dorne would know that Doran has an elder daughter who by Dornish law should be heir, but I also think it's implausible that Doran would send Trys to Dany if Trys were his only child. I haven't given up hope!

Sweetheart.... your faith is touching, really.

And speaking of #FuckHBO... I’ve been meaning to ask for a few days... who’s up for a Quentyn reread? Any interest at all?

[Hrafntýr]

Sweetheart.... your faith is touching, really.

And speaking of #FuckHBO... I’ve been meaning to ask for a few days... who’s up for a Quentyn reread? Any interest at all?

I've the innocence and trust of the Maiden, the mercy of the Mother...and clearly hiding from the light of the Mother's wisdom.

I love the thought of a Quentyn reread!

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Sweetheart.... your faith is touching, really.

And speaking of #FuckHBO... Ive been meaning to ask for a few days... whos up for a Quentyn reread? Any interest at all?

Ever since I mentioned it as a possible future reread when we were planning Arianne's reread.

I'm in!!!!! :D

[Chebyshov]

Sweetheart.... your faith is touching, really.

And speaking of #FuckHBO... I’ve been meaning to ask for a few days... who’s up for a Quentyn reread? Any interest at all?

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130929012138/undeadfanstories/images/6/69/I-volunteer-as-tribute.gif

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I volunteer because I'm pretty much done with my Cersei/Dany and I think I've read Quentyn only ONCE. A re-read is needed.

I also discovered I have Dance in original languageee... /o/

(Also, if I don't have Jon, you won't have Arianne, I won't allow it)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Hrafntýr, let's keep the faith ;)

JCRB, season 6... Season 6.... Don't they save the best for last?

And only once? Shame....

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Hrafntýr, let's keep the faith ;)

JCRB, season 6... Season 6.... Don't they save the best for last?

And only once? Shame....

Yeah... it's my books' fault... but I can't... elaborate. U_U

And I've given up hope. My only comfort is that many will suffer too.

[voodooqueen126]

Truthfully, next season is not going to make much sense if they cut Arianne.

Or atleast the reasons will go from morally complex to "I am destroying a little girl's life for purely selfish reasons".

[Chebyshov]

Truthfully, next season is not going to make much sense if they cut Arianne.

Or atleast the reasons will go from morally complex to "I am destroying a little girl's life for purely selfish reasons".

Nah, it's "for love."

(filming/audition script spoilers)

From what we can tell of the S5 Dornish plot, hunky, hunky Trystane wants to marry newly-minted Myrcella, but Doran won't let them (likely because Trys is engaged to Dany in secret...though I sincerely doubt he'll go on that voyage). Meanwhile, the 3 armor-wearing Sand Snakes plus sassy, short-haired Ellaria want revenge (oh and Tyene is her daughter), so maybe they pitch Trys the QM plot? At any-rate, Trys is convinced of his love for Myrcella, and he asks her to sneak out with him.

At some point Jaime and Bronn don turbans and sneak into Dorne, and then apparently there's going to be a scene where Trys tries to shake Jaime's hand, but he offers his left, and Trys gets offended. And there's a quasi-Darkstar figure that's been cast, but they aren't calling him Gerold Dayne, so :dunno: .

And meanwhile we have the perfect Doran looking like a dreamboat, who will have have to deliver his "fire and blood" speech to a kid that looks like he was cut from One Direction, and who's character motivation was marriage. I don't know how blood thirsty Ellaria is going to play into any of this, but I do know that the Dornish filming has wrapped up, because the Sand Snakes took to twitter about it.

Yup.

Bring on that Quentyn reread!

[SeanF]

They could have left out the QM plot for brevity, but it seems a strange decision to leave out Arianne, and to send Jaime and Bronn to Dorne.

[Colonel Green]

I wouldn't say "strange". Jaime and Bronn going to Dorne is pretty obvious plot consolidation. Removing Arianne, though a lot of this is speculative since we don't know all the details of what will happen, seems to correlate with Aegon VI being removed (the removal of Quentyn also makes sense in this context, since Quentyn's probable geopolitical significance is to give Dorne more motive for siding with Aegon instead of Dany).

More generally, the spoilers we've gotten suggest that the showrunners want to move the focus of the Dornish storyline from Doran's family to Oberyn's family.

[Julia Martell]

Hate to be “that guy”, but we’re completely off topic.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Indeed. This is for the discussion of Dorne, not Porne.

[Chebyshov]

Is this a bad time to squee over JonCon in a Santa hat?

Back to Arianne, the timeline pegs Arianne's imprisonment as 3 months. This sounded a little bit long to me, so I tried to actually figure it out. See what you think:

Day 1: explores her room
Day 2: Dons revealing garments
Day 3: "Prince Doran did not come the next day"
Day 4: "Nor the day after"

"The princess was left alone to pace, and weep, and nurse her wounds. During the daylight hours she would try to read..." There seems to be a passage of time here...I give it 3 days.

Day 8: "“Has Darkstar been captured?” she asked Bors one day."
Day 9: “Timoth,” she tried, another day, “what has become of Princess Myrcella? I never meant for harm to come to her.”
Day 12: “Belandra,” Arianne said, a few days later,
Day 13: Yells out a window
Day 14: By the time a fortnight had passed, her patience had worn paper-thin. “I will speak with my father now,” she told Bors, in her most commanding voice .
Day 15: Runs out the door when they open it
Days 16-28: Cedra-gate
16: talks about heat of the day
17: natters at the girl again as she was serving, mentions Garin
18: Talks of imprisoned friends
22: "it was four more days and two more baths before the girl was hers." Gets the letter
26: "For days Arianne wavered as she composed her secret letter." I gave her 4 days to write it :dunno:
27: "The girl did not return upon the morrow"
28: "Nor on the day that followed"
29: Asks Timoth to bring her Ricasso
30-31: Dumps wine on Timoth
31-?? Hunger strike

Days came and went, one after the other, so many that Arianne lost count of how long she had been imprisoned. She found herself spending more and more time abed, until she reached the point where she did not rise at all except to use her privy. The meals the servants brought grew cold, untouched. Arianne slept and woke and slept again, and still felt too weary to rise. She prayed to the Mother for mercy and to the Warrior for courage, then slept some more. Fresh meals replaced the old ones, but she did not eat them either. Once, when she felt especially strong, she carried all the food to the window and flung it out into the yard, so it would not tempt her. The effort exhausted her, so afterward she crawled back into bed and slept for half a day.

Then came a day when a rough hand woke her, shaking her by the shoulder. “Little princess," said a voice she'd known from childhood.

I can't imagine this last passage filled 2 full months...that's a really long time to let your daughter starve herself. The only other indication we have about the passage of time is from Doran:

Ser Balon Swann is bringing me the Mountain’s head. My bannermen have been delaying him, to purchase me some time. The Wyls kept him hunting and hawking for eight days on the Boneway, and Lord Yronwood feasted him for a fortnight when he emerged from the mountains. At present he is at the Tor, where Lady Jordayne has arranged games in his honor.

We heard this a few chapters before the QM:

“To be sure.” A tiresome creature, this prince. “His long wait is almost done. I am sending Balon Swann to Sunspear, to deliver him the head of Gregor Clegane.” Ser Balon would have another task as well, but that part was best left unsaid.

So Swann was already on the road before Arianne kidnapped Myrcella. I'd guess Swann got to Wyl around the start of Arianne's imprisonment. I think it's possible that he's in Tor after 2 months.

I dunno, this whole thing makes me think that Arianne's imprisonment was closer to 2, not 3 months, but I'm sure some timeline experts know better ;). Thoughts?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I dunno, this whole thing makes me think that Arianne's imprisonment was closer to 2, not 3 months, but I'm sure some timeline experts know better ;). Thoughts?

Well this sounds like a subtle hint :p

In Feast chapter 17, Cersei notes that the Sand Snakes have been arrested, Gregor's head has been prepared, and Ser Balon will leave "soon". That's Cersei 4, and in Cersei 5, we already see that Sylva Santagar has been married off, and thus, that the Queenmaker Plot has begun, ended, and failed.

So by the time we are in Cersei 5, Arianne is already imprisoned... It should be a few weeks already, as first Doran needs to arrange the match, then it needs to happen (2 weeks?), and then the news needs to reach KL (1 week?).

Naturally, by the time Balon reaches the borders of Dorne, the Queenmaker plot has already occured (there is no reason to stall Balon from the beginning if Myrcella hasn't gotter hurt yet,)

And how long is Balon being stalled?

• The Wyls kept him hunting and hawking for eight days on the Boneway
• Lord Yronwood feasted him for a fortnight when he emerged from the mountains
• At present he is at the Tor, where Lady Jordayne has arranged games in his honor
• When he reaches Ghost Hill he will find Lady Toland intent on outdoing her

Balon has been kept busy for 22 days, and that is excluding the travel. The travel would have taken him even longer. It would be within 1 to 2 weeks to go from place to place, roughly.. And there's four castles he passes before reaching Sunspear..

From Arianne's own countings:

Day 1: explores her room

Day 2: Dons revealing garments

Day 3: "Prince Doran did not come the next day"

Day 4: "Nor the day after"

Agreed with this. Clearly stated in text.

"The princess was left alone to pace, and weep, and nurse her wounds. During the daylight hours she would try to read..." -> a few days pass here.. It is not important how many days (they might even be a description of day 3 and 4, stating that while Doran did not come, she was left to nurse her wounds)

+1 day: "“Has Darkstar been captured?” she asked Bors one day."

+1 day: “Timoth,” she tried, another day, “what has become of Princess Myrcella? I never meant for harm to come to her.”

+1day: “Belandra,” Arianne said, a few days later,

+1 day: Yells out a window

Day 14: By the time a fortnight had passed, her patience had worn paper-thin. “I will speak with my father now,” she told Bors, in her most commanding voice .

The bolded part shows that the exact passage of days before didn't need much counting. Here we learn that 14 days have passed.

Day 15: Runs out the door when they open it

Cedra-gate:

16: talks about heat of the day

17: natters at the girl again as she was serving, mentions Garin

18: Talks of imprisoned friends

22: "it was four more days and two more baths before the girl was hers." Gets the letter We see that once every two days, Arianne is bathed, which could make day 16 actually day 17 (it is described as her next bath... so basically, we can add another day, potentially. Won't change much).

26: "For days Arianne wavered as she composed her secret letter." As this letter is rather important for Arianne, it might have taken her quite come time.

27: "The girl did not return upon the morrow" Clear, only one day passes

28: "Nor on the day that followed" And another

29: Asks Timoth to bring her Ricasso Arianne asks the next morning.

30-31: Dumps wine on Timoth Sure, agreed.

31-?? Hunger strike

And then the hunger strike begins.

Days came and went, one after the other, so many that Arianne lost count of how long she had been imprisoned.

It sounds like quite some time passes. Doran was trying to break Arianne's spirit with this tactic, and up until a month in, it wasn't really working. Would this have been 2 months? Perhaps not fully.. I would personally guess it a a month, perhaps 1,5 month (but that would be pushing it).

I think why Arianne's imprisonment and release has been placed on the timeline you linked the way it is, is because the Queenmaker plot is connected to Oberyn's death (during The Soiled Knight, a merchant had been killed a fortnight ago for Oberyn's death, and Oberyn had died not long before that, I think..).. As Doran has stated in that chapter (and not even necessarily on that same day), they would leave for the Water Gardens within a fortnight, and thus, The Soiled Knight and The Queenmaker take place about a fortnight apart (as durnig the Queenmaker, they haven't yet left for the Water Gardens ;) ). Which in turn can't take place too long after Tywin's death, as Arianne learns about that in the Queenmaker for the first time..

Yet there are 4 chapters of Cersei where Balon is still in KL, but Tywin is dead, and those chapters do take some time - quite a lot of stuff happens there.

In Cersei 4, we learn that the Sand Snakes are arrested, which occurs in The Captain of Guards.. As this is the day that Doran arrived in Sunspear, and we can assume that Doran and Arys spoke either the day of Doran's arrival or the next day (it would have been an insult to the royal house of Baratheon otherwise), the fortnight within the Queenmaker needs to take place starts.. By the time the Queenmaker takes place, Cersei has yet to learn about the Sand Snakes getting arrested, and Balon has yet to leave Dorne..

And Balon's travel is long.. He first needs to cross the Stormlands, then travel from Wyl, to Yronwood, to the Torr (Princess in the Tower), and meanwhile, is kept busy 22 days (as stated above). If I cross-reference the distance (roughly, as I haven't put a ruler to my map, it's quite late) from KL to the Torr with the distance from the ruby fort to KL, which Ned Stark and the court was able to cross in a fortnight (which they did without stopping, travelling quickly, tiring everyone, due to the tensions between the Lannisters and the Starks), it should take Balon (who would have travelled at a more relaxed pace, but with a group slowly growing, as each lord he visited seems to have travelled along with him when he left their castle) slightly more than a month to travel. Add to that the 22 days they kept him busy, and he's almost 2 months before he reaches the Torr.. where he is being feasted, and could thus easily have been for a few days already...

That does put us around the 2 months of Arianne's arrest, even slightly more.

At least, that's what I make of it quickly, right now.