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Trial by Folly: The Arianne Martell Reread Project [TWOW Arianne I spoilers]


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I don't see how it could have not lead to war. It would either be:



They crowned Myrcella --> War


or


They crowned Myrcella --> "Ha ha very funny, you silly Dornish, give her back" --> "No." --> War



And it would have worked even better, since it's Cersei rather than the supposed Tywin Arianne formulated this plan for. I mean, Cersei wanted to kill Trystane on the road to King's Landing for NO REASON. Literally no reason. She still had no idea about Myrcella's injury, Doran has been nothing but cooperative with her over Myrcella, at least as far as she knows. She's just slightly miffed that Oberyn took Tyrion's side for reasons that had so obviously nothing to do with Tyrion that even Cersei should have known it had nothing to do with Tyrion.



I don't imagine Arianne's plan was ever to attack the Reach or anything, just pull the old Dornish trick of closing off the passes and waiting for trouble to come to them. Tywin maybe would have let them sit there and pulled another Red Wedding, but Cersei would have sent Loras Tyrell to storm Kingsgrave, or something equally unnecessarily bloody.



And the impression I get is that the Dornish lords have been chomping at the bit to fight some Lannisters since Oberyn died, if not since Elia died. They want war as much as Arianne does, and they have two armies that have been sitting doing nothing for, like, two years. And there's little in the universe that worse and more pocket draining than an idle army.



The only thing that seems to hold Dorne together at this point is their loyalty to Sunspear, and to Doran, basically because his name is Martell, me thinks. And Arainne is a Martell too, and she's been throwing all the lords of Dorne parties for the past few years, and probably have quite good relations with them, while Doran as seemingly been sitting in the place that most of them associate with their childhoods just being an old sick dude.



So yeah, I think at least most of the lords would follow her. It still probably would have ended badly, but it would;t have been a second Blackfyre Rebellion.



And if Doran was the man Arianne had been thinking he is for all this time...


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Huh, weird.. I had a lot more in my post from last night, but for some strange reason, it seems that got deleted during posting..

Edit: and I place my post, and everything but 1 quote box is deleted.. No time to type everything yet again.. So I'll try again later..

Yeah I noticed something probably went awry, but no worries buddy ;)

Good points all around, though! It's definitely important to remember the fact that Quentyn has been out of Arianne's life for much longer than he was ever in it. It provides an interesting counterpoint to her relationship with her father, for sure, and her differences in attitude toward the two of them reflect that. And I see what you're saying about Arianne and Doran's relationship maybe not being "deep," per se--perhaps a better way of putting it is that they clearly always very much loved one another? I don't know, I'm having a really hard time trying to articulate what I'm getting at. I'm just trying to account for how much Arianne seems to care for Doran's opinion of her, I guess is what the root of it is. Not that that's an unusual thing for a child to feel toward a parent, but it seems very visceral in Arianne's case.

I think your takes on a lot of the discussion questions are spot on, as well, and I (embarrassingly??) never thought that the half starlight/half shadow could have been a play on Darkstar as a name...so nice catch, lol! And I totally buy your call on the Yronwood surviving situation. Often times it's better to approach a rival with an open hand, rather than a closed fist. Try telling that to the Tywins in the General forum though :blink:

OH and I actually had never heard your take on the numbers of Dorne discrepancy before! That's an interesting perspective, that Quentyn was right all along and the 25,000 is the actual incorrect number. That'd be an interesting approach by Doran, but the idea that Quentyn might have lied to Daenerys about the strength of Dorne always stuck out to me as either a big oversight on GRRM's part or really suspicious. I'd love to hear anything else you have built up around your idea sometime, but I guess that's a discussion for another thread on another day :)

I dont think I have much value to add after these crazy good posts, but I do want to respond to "It seems Arianne’s plan went pretty well, except for the fact that her father found out about it and made moves to put an end to it after the wheels were already moving. How successful could her coup have been if it hadn’t been found out? Were there gaps in her logic that would have come back to bite her in the ass? Would she perhaps have had better luck if her father was not someone so adept at figuring shit out, a la JCRB’s Someone Always Tells?"

Wasnt another gap in her logic besides the numbers of Dorne also what Darkstar told her? That the lion isnt so easily provoked? He thought crowning Mrycella wouldn't lead to war, but killing her would. The lannisters could have tried to ignore her being "queen" and just laugh and say "oh those stupid dornish...we'll set the record straight when they return her home."

I think a lot of whether or not the Lannisters would retaliate earnestly would be how much traction Myrcella's claim got inside Dorne, and (optimistically, I know) how much traction it would have gotten from kingdoms outside Dorne. If Arianne were actually able to muster most of Dorne to her cause (and we shouldn't forget, it's practically taken for granted that the commonfolk, at least, will back her, and that might influence the lords and ladies), the Lannisters might see it as more of a threat, and feel compelled to address it. Arianne could always force their hand too by harrying the Reachlords and Stormlords along the Marches, something Darkstar seems more than willing to do.

That brings up a good question, though--we've kind of got a running narrative going on the Dornish Debates threads that Doran actually has a lot of support from his lords and ladies in Dorne, if not the commonfolk in general. Would Arianne actually have been able to sway them against her father, or would she have found them actually a lot more apprehensive about undermining Doran than she anticipated?

ETA very good thoughts from our learned colleague Julia Martell above that address this question

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I guess Darkstar said what he said not knowing about Tywin? Tywin wouldnt be easily provoked. How did Arianne mean for darkstar to take down all of Yronwood?



It's good Doran wasn't what she thought. Becuase then she'd have to fight off house Yrwonod, the golden company, and maybe some other Dornish lords more in Doran's pocket. So even if she thought 50,000 people could fight Lannisers, she didn't assume all to her cause, right? Am I making sense?



I mean, not to be to hard on her. This is the "folly" part afterall.



EDIT:


what hapened to those dornish threads?


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This is too damn long!!! (never heard Victarion. Ever). I can't quote it all. Anyway... let's try.



Darkstar. I love how annoying he is. Not only he complains in front of Arianne and Arys, he also follows them around to keep complaining after they get away from him to not hear him any more :lol: He's beautiful and all that, but come one... imagine sex with Darkstar? "You liked the sex we just had? Because you know what? You couldn't have THAT with Arthur Dayne. He was a KG, he was celibate. By choice. He was a virgin who couldn't drive. All that pretty sword for what? eh? eh?".



Then, this is a bit telling as well of Arianne's taste in men and her future marriage options.



First, she not only likes pretty boys. She likes dangerous boys. The idea of Arys and Dayne fighting over her, while she wouldn't like it to happen, it's not something seems to completely dislike. And two, more than value Doran's opinion, she knows she needs his permission to marry, grown adult woman or not.



With that in mind, let's remember that Aegon is no game for her. First, his first thought about Dany is "yeah, my daddy will make sure she will marry me!". Indeed, that's going to win Arianne's heart at once. And second, beautiful dragon or not, she can't marry her unless she gets permission from Doran. So, not rushed marriages for her.



And finally, this chapter proves Doran's words we'll see later: they were foolish boys. "Look at the fun we're having! beers, wine, a picnic and plotting, fuck yeah!". If anything, at least Dayne is more realistic about what they should do if they indeed want to make a move against the Lannisters.


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Yeah, let's talk about Arianne's stupid friends.

I rather talk about his not stupid friend. I wrote this in another thread about the Darkwing himself and how he was not only not an idiot (like the rest) but he was probably just (internally) shaking his head in disapproval the whole time:

- People drink wine around a fire ("omg, we're having a blast here, like tots LOL!"). He drinks water

- They praised Garin the Great. He doesn't. And Garin's attempt failed like Arianne's will fail soon and cause one death and the hurting of Myrcella.

- When they start to talk about contracts in Essos like they know what they're talking about. He left. "I'll take a piss". Maybe he thinks they don't know what they are talking about (we know they aren't)

- He tells Arianne the truth: if she wants war, her games are nothing. She needs blood.

- They're playing, eating, talking about how cool everything will be. He says "we can't stop here".

- He calls Arys what he is. An idiot.

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She picked them because they werwe all from important houses, right? Except the orphan who arranged the ride. I cant believe we're not talking about her uncle fantasy.

I always got the impression that Arianne picked who she did because they were good friends of hers and she trusted them--with the exception of Darkstar, who seems to be her one relinquishment to necessity. But yeah, Drey is heir to Lemonwood and Sylva to Spottswood, so maybe that was part of it?

I rather talk about his not stupid friend. I wrote this in another thread about the Darkwing himself and how he was not only not an idiot (like the rest) but he was probably just (internally) shaking his head in disapproval the whole time:

- People drink wine around a fire ("omg, we're having a blast here, like tots LOL!"). He drinks water

- They praised Garin the Great. He doesn't. And Garin's attempt failed like Arianne's will fail soon and cause one death and the hurting of Myrcella.

- When they start to talk about contracts in Essos like they know what they're talking about. He left. "I'll take a piss". Maybe he thinks they don't know what they are talking about (we know they aren't)

- He tells Arianne the truth: if she wants war, her games are nothing. She needs blood.

- They're playing, eating, talking about how cool everything will be. He says "we can't stop here".

- He calls Arys what he is. An idiot.

Damn JCRB this is actually really interesting... Do you think you could dig up a link to that post when you have a chance/if you can find it?

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I always got the impression that Arianne picked who she did because they were good friends of hers and she trusted them--with the exception of Darkstar, who seems to be her one relinquishment to necessity. But yeah, Drey is heir to Lemonwood and Sylva to Spottswood, so maybe that was part of it?

Damn JCRB this is actually really interesting... Do you think you could dig up a link to that post when you have a chance/if you can find it?

As you wish: first post of the page: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/94442-ser-gerold-dayne-aka-darkstar-character-analysis/page-8

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Yeah I noticed something probably went awry, but no worries buddy ;)

Good points all around, though! It's definitely important to remember the fact that Quentyn has been out of Arianne's life for much longer than he was ever in it. It provides an interesting counterpoint to her relationship with her father, for sure, and her differences in attitude toward the two of them reflect that. And I see what you're saying about Arianne and Doran's relationship maybe not being "deep," per se--perhaps a better way of putting it is that they clearly always very much loved one another? I don't know, I'm having a really hard time trying to articulate what I'm getting at. I'm just trying to account for how much Arianne seems to care for Doran's opinion of her, I guess is what the root of it is. Not that that's an unusual thing for a child to feel toward a parent, but it seems very visceral in Arianne's case.

Yeah, I still can't think of the right words to formulate it, though I am certain we are feeling the same way about it.. ;)

But perhaps because Doran was an every day/week presense in Arianne's life up to two years ago, I mean, he won't have been ignoring her for all those years. The feelings about not being important enough seem to mostly originate from the past 2 years (I was put in charge of feasts and frolics, I was summoned only twice a year..)

So how it was before? We don't really know, though Winds will contain Arianne POVs and Hotah POVs (if Doran was at Sunspear for years, so will Hotah have been), so there's always a chance we'll still learn. It's easier to blame the person you barely know and never see, instead of blaming the person you know carries blame, but is still kind to you and you see every day/week.

OH and I actually had never heard your take on the numbers of Dorne discrepancy before! That's an interesting perspective, that Quentyn was right all along and the 25,000 is the actual incorrect number. That'd be an interesting approach by Doran, but the idea that Quentyn might have lied to Daenerys about the strength of Dorne always stuck out to me as either a big oversight on GRRM's part or really suspicious. I'd love to hear anything else you have built up around your idea sometime, but I guess that's a discussion for another thread on another day :)

I'll post an expansion on my thoughts in the Dornish Debates thread then ;)

EDIT:

what hapened to those dornish threads?

They are right here.. :)

I rather talk about his not stupid friend. I wrote this in another thread about the Darkwing himself and how he was not only not an idiot (like the rest) but he was probably just (internally) shaking his head in disapproval the whole time:

- People drink wine around a fire ("omg, we're having a blast here, like tots LOL!"). He drinks water

- They praised Garin the Great. He doesn't. And Garin's attempt failed like Arianne's will fail soon and cause one death and the hurting of Myrcella.

- When they start to talk about contracts in Essos like they know what they're talking about. He left. "I'll take a piss". Maybe he thinks they don't know what they are talking about (we know they aren't)

- He tells Arianne the truth: if she wants war, her games are nothing. She needs blood.

- They're playing, eating, talking about how cool everything will be. He says "we can't stop here".

- He calls Arys what he is. An idiot.

Yeah.. This is just a first impression we get on Darkstar, but it isn't a bad one. I mean, don't get me wrong, he does not sound like a nice person at all, but he's not dumb. He thinks.

Which reminds me of something else I tried to post earlier, but which got deleted (still have yet to figure out how and why..). Doran tells Arys that they will leave for the Water Gardens in a fortnight, when Arys meets with him. We don't know yet whether this happened on the day that Doran arrived at Sunspear, but it seems likely, because you can only put off meeting with a princess and her guard for so long, and Doran had been putting it off for half a year already. In any case, this means that between The Soiled Knight where Arianne enlists Arys' help, and The Queenmaker less than a fortnight passes.

Darkstar lives at High Hermitage, which is quite a distance from Sunspear. Yet, he won't have been at High Hermitage when Arianne enlisted him for this specific plot. A raven needs to fly from Sunspear to High Hermitage, and Darkstar would need to ride to Shandystone, which can't be far from Sunspear, if Arys and Myrcella had left only shortly before.

Which means that Darkstar was most likely close to Sunspear already, or perhaps even present at Sunspear. Arianne and her group most likely arrived separately for one of two reasons: 1) either they were all at the same location (Sunspear) and wished to avoid suspicion, or 2) they had been at different locations previously,

In both cases, I wonder, why did Darkstar arrive a full day before anyone else did? And why does he believe that Arianne's goal is to avenge Oberyn and have the Sand Snakes freed? The Sand Snakes will have been in captivity for a fortnight at most... Does that suggest that Darkstar had only been added to the plan within the last fortnight?

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Which means that Darkstar was most likely close to Sunspear already, or perhaps even present at Sunspear. Arianne and her group most likely arrived separately for one of two reasons: 1) either they were all at the same location (Sunspear) and wished to avoid suspicion, or 2) they had been at different locations previously,



In both cases, I wonder, why did Darkstar arrive a full day before anyone else did? And why does he believe that Arianne's goal is to avenge Oberyn and have the Sand Snakes freed? The Sand Snakes will have been in captivity for a fortnight at most... Does that suggest that Darkstar had only been added to the plan within the last fortnight?




Darkstar doesn't strike me as a conciencous landowner. He probably hangs out in Sunspear more than he hangs out in High Hermitage.



I'm beginning to wonder why he agreed to come on the adventure at all, since he has such contempt for the plan and everyone involved in it.






Yeah, I still can't think of the right words to formulate it, though I am certain we are feeling the same way about it.. ;)


But perhaps because Doran was an every day/week presense in Arianne's life up to two years ago, I mean, he won't have been ignoring her for all those years. The feelings about not being important enough seem to mostly originate from the past 2 years (I was put in charge of feasts and frolics, I was summoned only twice a year..)


So how it was before? We don't really know, though Winds will contain Arianne POVs and Hotah POVs (if Doran was at Sunspear for years, so will Hotah have been), so there's always a chance we'll still learn. It's easier to blame the person you barely know and never see, instead of blaming the person you know carries blame, but is still kind to you and you see every day/week.





I think before that it was more like he was emotionally ignoring her, rather than never seeing her ignoring her. I mean, she was seriously acting out in a vain attempt to get his attention.



And I doubt she expressed much affection for him anymore, after reading that infamous letter, and he probably picked up on that and become even more emotionally distant and so on.


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Darkstar doesn't strike me as a conciencous landowner. He probably hangs out in Sunspear more than he hangs out in High Hermitage.

I'm beginning to wonder why he agreed to come on the adventure at all, since he has such contempt for the plan and everyone involved in it.

Hmm.. Perhaps because he hoped to convince Arianne to follow his plans, and thus to become a leader in a rebellious war, making himself famous (like Arthur was)?

I think before that it was more like he was emotionally ignoring her, rather than never seeing her ignoring her. I mean, she was seriously acting out in a vain attempt to get his attention.

And I doubt she expressed much affection for him anymore, after reading that infamous letter, and he probably picked up on that and become even more emotionally distant and so on.

Yeah, that most likely happened. That's sad.. :( I mean, she said she cried herself to sleep for nights afterwards, how did she ever face him during those days?

Though I suspect that Doran might have believed that it was due to Mellario leaving Dorne. If nothing changes (that your child knows of, according to you), and your child suddenly becomes emotionally distant, it is most logical that you try and figure out why your child is acting that way.

Whereas if the change in behavior of Arianne changed around the same time that Mellario left Dorne for good, Doran might have believed that Mellario leaving was the reason. In which case he might have been blaming himself for Arianne's reaction, and her acting out, making himself less willing to punish her. While that was exactly what she was trying to accomplish. So while Doran might have been convinced that Arianne just needed to get it all out of her system, Arianne was simply searching for attention from him.

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Darkstar doesn't strike me as a conciencous landowner. He probably hangs out in Sunspear more than he hangs out in High Hermitage.

I'm beginning to wonder why he agreed to come on the adventure at all, since he has such contempt for the plan and everyone involved in it.

Maybe she told him that he would potentially be needed to destroy the Yronwoods "root and branch." He seemed like he was champing at the bit for a fight of some kind or another.

Though I suspect that Doran might have believed that it was due to Mellario leaving Dorne. If nothing changes (that your child knows of, according to you), and your child suddenly becomes emotionally distant, it is most logical that you try and figure out why your child is acting that way.

Whereas if the change in behavior of Arianne changed around the same time that Mellario left Dorne for good, Doran might have believed that Mellario leaving was the reason. In which case he might have been blaming himself for Arianne's reaction, and her acting out, making himself less willing to punish her. While that was exactly what she was trying to accomplish. So while Doran might have been convinced that Arianne just needed to get it all out of her system, Arianne was simply searching for attention from him.

Very likely. That plus she was entering into her teenage years (she lost her virginity to Daemon the same year as the letter and Mellario's departure I believe), which I'm sure was uncomfortable for him. If he was internalizing her anger as being about his marriage, it's no wonder he "did nothing" with respect to explaining how a princess (or future queen...ya know) "should" behave, and what might be expected. Instead, he gave her a job that maybe he thought would make her happy, and kept his secrets, fearing too much to even broach the subject.

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Very likely. That plus she was entering into her teenage years (she lost her virginity to Daemon the same year as the letter and Mellario's departure I believe), which I'm sure was uncomfortable for him. If he was internalizing her anger as being about his marriage, it's no wonder he "did nothing" with respect to explaining how a princess (or future queen...ya know) "should" behave, and what might be expected. Instead, he gave her a job that maybe he thought would make her happy, and kept his secrets, fearing too much to even broach the subject.

Wow, that must have been a fun year for her. Can you imagine the bad poetry she produced?

Doran's not at least giving Arianne a hint that maybe she should be a lot more discrete is just such an oversight on his part it tempts me into giving credence to certain Dornish Master Plan ideas.

And I can't imagine Oberyn was any help. He was probably giving her high fives.

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Combating the Jolly Lark: Why the Queenmaker chapter serves as a detriment to embracing Arianne



For the past couple of days, our conversation about this chapter left me really frustrated that we see so much criticism of Arianne. Her internal monologue is not one of a bumbling fool, but rather one that remains focused, determined, and calculating. However, viewing Arianne as the “jolly lark” she isn’t is not a rare phenomenon. At first, I thought that her introduction through outside POVs may have been the primary reason. Though I still think they did her a disservice, the more I thought about it this morning, the more I realized it’s this chapter. Here’s why:



Immediate Failure


This is our first POV inside Arianne’s head, and therefore our first true look into the Queenmaker plot. And what happens? It fails. It fails miserably and quickly. I love this chapter because it represents a very complete narrative. However, I can’t help but think that if this plot line had been in ASOS, with its lower chapter-length average, then this might have been split in two. Had the chapter ended at a different point, perhaps with the delusional “singers will make us immortal” bit, then our first Arianne chapter would have a much different tone. We’d see her enacting a plan and becoming increasingly more hopeful at its success as the chapter moved on.



However, by having her rise and fall in the same, quick chapter, we’re really only able to point at the failure and think “of course it didn’t work.” This is especially hammered home with Hotah’s [unintentionally] patronizing remark “someone always tells.” JCRB pointed out to us that it’s quite likely no one told, which makes this statement even more unfair for Arianne. And odds are that Hotah was just guessing at what happened (hence his shrug) anyway. But the end of the chapter, which as DV wisely noted was one of Arianne’s lowest moments, leaves us feeling like she was a fool; all of which is worsened by her immediate self-deprecation.


Even in her TWOW chapter, we see her being ridiculously hard on herself.



The Ostentatious Title


We know how this ends up. She’s no goddamn Queenmaker. So why did Martin pick this as the title? There’s an obvious parallel to Quentyn’s “Dragontamer” chapter, and you could even argue a similarity between “The Princess in the Tower” and “The Spurned Suitor” (though those two differ chronologically from their respective fuckup chapters). But with Quentyn dead, I’m not sure what we’re supposed to make of this parallel. Further, Arianne’s Queenmaker chapter is the moment where everything she’s been working towards for a decade comes crashing down, and Quentyn’s Dragontamer chapter is more of a desperate final attempt to succeed at a mission. One is a jumping off point, and the other is the end of the arc. So I’m not sure if the similarities between those two titles is on purpose or not.



Yet by giving us this title, we almost view Arianne in a pretentious light, which her thoughts counter. She’s never sitting around going “fuck yeah, I’m so brilliant.” Rather, we see her anxiously watching her plans unfold, and then reassuring herself as needed. Once all the pieces are clicking together, she gains a little confidence, but even her magniloquent “we are seven” thoughts I read as a way of her reassuring herself that she’s doing the right thing. Raising banners to defend her birthright? Actually, if successful, bards likely would sing of that, especially if it then lead to the reversal of the Criston Cole precedent.



Damned by Association


Arianne’s friends, save Darkstar, are being foolish, silly children. Drey and Garin are joking/flirting the entire time (and drinking), Arys is trying to get in Arianne’s pants, and Sylva is making uninformed guesses about the Golden Company. I’m sure these people are a lot of fun for Arianne back in Sunspear, but it’s hard not to doubt her sense in trusting them when they all seem so frivolous. Now, if no one told (as I’m inclined to think), then Arianne wasn’t silly in trusting them; loyalty is crucial to a plan like this. It is also true that Doran does have need of Houses Dalt, Santagar, and Dayne; Arianne thought she was preventing too much retaliation on Doran’s part if she was able to raise the banners, though she had no understanding/way of knowing of how devoted Doran’s bannermen truly are (see the Dornish Debates for more on this). This is a long-winded way of me saying that I don’t think Arianne was truly an idiot for picking the co-conspirators that she did. However, our introduction to them is absolutely horrible, as we see them not taking anything seriously, and both Arianne and Gerold becoming actively frustrated with this.



Also, we learn that Arianne was very, very careful in picking her party:


Drey had wanted a larger party, but that might have attracted unwelcome attention, and every additional man doubled the risk of betrayal. That much my father taught me, at the least.

Sadly, this line is sandwiched in between her “delusions of grandeur,” though it really is just her thinking about the logistics one her plot reaches its conclusion.



Shallow Thoughts


Arianne is not a shallow person. But it’s easy to view her that way, especially with this chapter. Arianne’s first italicized thoughts that we read on the page are about her uncle-rape fantasy. Her second italicized thoughts are about how hot Darkstar is and how their kids would be pretty. I think these two might have led to a bit of a snap judgment. This is a shame, because both of those thoughts actually are linked to Arianne’s growth, development, and intellect. She’s disturbed by her fantasy about the robber (“uneasy”), and seems to be lamenting that she didn’t get more out of the trip the way Tyene and Sarella did. And as for Darkstar, she’s watching him “warily” and sizing him up. Despite him being pretty, dark, and dangerous (her kink!), she’s suspicious of him and notes his inherent cruelness. Yet on first read, it’s easy to view our first look at her cognition as an example of her being both superficial and boy-crazy.



I’ve got more I could point to about why this chapter allows for her mischaracterization, but I’ve got a train to catch. Can anyone else think of something? I was going to also include how this is the first moment where we realize her tepid feelings for Arys, which then makes us look back at The Soiled Knight and realize how manipulative she truly was.



But yeah, I absolutely love how DV’s analysis focused on her psychological processes (almost like it’s a specialty :P), because I think it’s easy to fall into the trap of agreeing with Arianne’s self-deprecation.


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The Ostentatious Title

We know how this ends up. She’s no goddamn Queenmaker. So why did Martin pick this as the title? There’s an obvious parallel to Quentyn’s “Dragontamer” chapter, and you could even argue a similarity between “The Princess in the Tower” and “The Spurned Suitor” (though those two differ chronologically from their respective fuckup chapters). But with Quentyn dead, I’m not sure what we’re supposed to make of this parallel. Further, Arianne’s Queenmaker chapter is the moment where everything she’s been working towards for a decade comes crashing down, and Quentyn’s Dragontamer chapter is more of a desperate final attempt to succeed at a mission. One is a jumping off point, and the other is the end of the arc. So I’m not sure if the similarities between those two titles is on purpose or not.

Yet by giving us this title, we almost view Arianne in a pretentious light, which her thoughts counter. She’s never sitting around going “fuck yeah, I’m so brilliant.” Rather, we see her anxiously watching her plans unfold, and then reassuring herself as needed. Once all the pieces are clicking together, she gains a little confidence, but even her magniloquent “we are seven” thoughts I read as a way of her reassuring herself that she’s doing the right thing. Raising banners to defend her birthright? Actually, if successful, bards likely would sing of that, especially if it then lead to the reversal of the Criston Cole precedent.

I was thinking a bit in another direction. The Queenmaker makes me think of "the Kingmaker", where a protector tried to raise the non-heir to the throne, insisting on following the inheritance laws that he/she had been raised with. Criston Cole knew that Rhaenyra was the heir to the throne, but crowned Aegon II anyway, and a war ensued, causing him to die. Arianne knew that Myrcella was not the heir, but Tommen, yet she tried to crown the girl anyway. She failed, though, and maybe that's a good thing. "to crown her is to kill her," we're being taught in Dance, and I doubt that Arianne would have been left alone in such case.

The same goes for The Princess in the Tower, which makes me think immediately of the three Maidens in the tower, or, as they would be called seperately, the Maid in the Tower. These maidens, were, of course, princesses, thereby making the parallel. Here, the parallel would be that Daena, Rhaena and Elaena were locked away to prevent causing men to "sin" for them/because of them. Arianne is locked away because she might otherwise inspire men to revolt against their ruler, and thereby, "sin". And of course, all were locked away in a "prison" in a tower :)

The parallels are not perfect, I'll admit. But they do provide Arianne and the Dornish arc two connections, however subtle, with the Targaryens.

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I certainly think that we're suppose to be contrasting Arianne and Quentyn, I mean Arianne basically tells us to.



And Arianne is a master of projection, the Quentyn in her head is exactly like her, and wants what she wants. The real Quentyn is... nothing like that. He's a nice guy, he does his best. If he were Prince of Dorne he would be... okay. He would do his job no matter how uncomfortable to made him. People would follow him out of duty, probably, but I doubt he would arrange for the assassination of the Tyrell overlord of Dorne, raise the whole place up in a rebellion that undid several years of military occupation in two weeks, and lock the Aemon the Dragon Knight in a cage suspended over a snake pit.



Arianne would do those things. (Or try to, anyway.) She would have told Rhaenys Targaryan to fuck off. I mean, she told her father to fuck off when he had a sword over her head, she definitely dragon-staring-down material. And she seems to have that Martell je ne sais quoi, that certain fire to her that allowed all the historical Martells we've heard of take what is essentially a random collection of ethnic groups in a not ideal physical environment and turn it into the closest thing Planetos has to an Nation State.



Have any of you seen the TNG episode Tapestry? (If not, go see it, it's very good.) Sometimes you need to have that fuck up in your life, that one big regret, to grow into your potential.



Those are my random thoughts on Arianne versus Quentyn.



As for her uncle-rape fantasies. Well remember what her (great?)uncle said:



"It's the sword in a man's hand that determines his worth, not the one between his legs."



So basically, she has uncle-rape fantasies. So?



And maybe her thoughts about Darkstar aren't entirely shallow either. At this point, she's getting ready to be in charge of Dorne, and that means she has to marry and start having babies pretty soon. I somehow doubt she ever intended to follow through on the marrying Arys thing.


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One thing that's striking is how little Quentyn thinks of Arianne. And it's always coupled with how others would think of him, so it's never just about her.





As for her uncle-rape fantasies. Well remember what her (great?)uncle said:



"It's the sword in a man's hand that determines his worth, not the one between his legs."



So basically, she has uncle-rape fantasies. So?



And maybe her thoughts about Darkstar aren't entirely shallow either. At this point, she's getting ready to be in charge of Dorne, and that means she has to marry and start having babies pretty soon. I somehow doubt she ever intended to follow through on the marrying Arys thing.





100%. Also, her uncle fantasy is born of the fact that Oberyn is like, the ideal Dornish prince. He's charismatic and well-loved; appropriately dangerous and seemingly quick to act. She was fantasizing at a time when her sexuality was developing, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with eroticizing what is basically a local celebrity. The thought makes her uneasy because I think looking back (and with her sexual predilections better understood), she wishes she could have made more of the trip. I have a lot of regrets about how my sexual development manifested in high school; it's not like it's a weird thought.



With Darkstar, you're right. In addition to sizing him up as a co-conspirator, if her mission succeeds, she's going to need a consort. She thinks about it because there's an attraction, but then sizes up his personality as being the determining factor.



However, given the response we've seen to other women in the story and their sexuality, many tend to draw criticism from it. I think on the first read it's easy to peg her as superficial and wanton, which isn't made much better by the fact that Arys is our first real look at her and he has the same thoughts. His misogynistic thoughts color this chapter. This is why I really struggle with Martin's male-gaze decision in that chapter. I think it's hard to talk about Arianne's reputation in the fandom without pointing to these inherently sexist mechanisms at play in her story.



ETA:






I was thinking a bit in another direction. The Queenmaker makes me think of "the Kingmaker", where a protector tried to raise the non-heir to the throne, insisting on following the inheritance laws that he/she had been raised with. Criston Cole knew that Rhaenyra was the heir to the throne, but crowned Aegon II anyway, and a war ensued, causing him to die. Arianne knew that Myrcella was not the heir, but Tommen, yet she tried to crown the girl anyway. She failed, though, and maybe that's a good thing. "to crown her is to kill her," we're being taught in Dance, and I doubt that Arianne would have been left alone in such case.



The same goes for The Princess in the Tower, which makes me think immediately of the three Maidens in the tower, or, as they would be called seperately, the Maid in the Tower. These maidens, were, of course, princesses, thereby making the parallel. Here, the parallel would be that Daena, Rhaena and Elaena were locked away to prevent causing men to "sin" for them/because of them. Arianne is locked away because she might otherwise inspire men to revolt against their ruler, and thereby, "sin". And of course, all were locked away in a "prison" in a tower :)



The parallels are not perfect, I'll admit. But they do provide Arianne and the Dornish arc two connections, however subtle, with the Targaryens.






I never thought about that before! I really like that as a form of subtle foreshadowing. Still, I can't unlink "Queenmaker" and "Dragontamer" in my mind. It's almost like if Oberyn had a POV chapter called "Mountain Toppler." I have to think that is intentional, although you're certainly right that Arianne's story mimics Cole.


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In addition to Arianne's desert survival skills, she is also a very competent horsewoman, not being tired after their long ride and easily vaulting into the saddle at a moment's notice.

Yeah, let's talk about Arianne's stupid friends.

During my own recent re-read of the series, and as a result of following the Dany re-read thread, I have become aware that there is nothing to chose re: stupidity and unrealistic dreams of glory between Arianne's friends and Quentyn's.

In fact, Quentyn and friends had been drinking in Plankytown, toasting their adventure, Quentyn's future bride, etc. prior to their departure. No wonder that they were noticed! And that's despite being on official mission from the Prince himself and sworn to secrecy. If Varys _had_ been paying as much attention to Dorne as Doran had feared and if he had truly been on Lannister side, Quent's mission would have been discovered before he even left!

This confirmed for me that Doran had a very wrong impression both of the kind of man Quentyn was and what kind of men his entourage were. And, ultimately, that his judgement of Lord Yronwood, who had staffed this mission was also dangerously off. Generally speaking, the decision to foster Quentyn with the Yronwoods at such a young age is revealed as more and more questionable, IMHO.

Re: Quentyn not thinking of Arianne all that much, IIRC the interesting thing is that he doesn't think about how he was supposed to become the Prince of Dorne either, nor does he feel any resentment over losing this chance. Could it be that Doran actually never sent that fateful letter in the form that Arianne saw? That Doran also kept Quentyn in the dark? That would compound all the tragic misunderstandings that the letter caused between father and daughter.

And I can only agree with the analysis of Arianne here, as somebody, who is very capable of planning and keeping secrets and who has learned much more from Doran than the latter was willing to give her credit for. Outwardly, Quentyn may have seemed more like Doran, but inwardly, Arianne is much more like her father. Doran was even the one who married a not-completely suitable woman, which subsequently led to problems, so, it isn't like he had been always deliberate and rational when young!

I'm beginning to wonder why he agreed to come on the adventure at all, since he has such contempt for the plan and everyone involved in it.

For the chance to kill Myrcella and really get the war rolling, I bet.

Speaking of which, I wonder about the repeated stress on Dorne not being able to fight off the Lannister-Tyrell alliance, or prior to that, the certainty that Robert would have been able to crush them. I mean, Dorne was never afraid to tussle with the rest of Westeros before, and on the whole has been able to hold it's own, even if at grievious cost. It is one thing for Doran to be unwilling to incur that cost, but quite another to claim, despite all the historical precedents, that Dorne would have been literally doomed.

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During my own recent re-read of the series, and as a result of following the Dany re-read thread, I have become aware that there is nothing to chose re: stupidity and unrealistic dreams of glory between Arianne's friends and Quentyn's.

In fact, Quentyn and friends had been drinking in Plankytown, toasting their adventure, Quentyn's future bride, etc. prior to their departure. No wonder that they were noticed! And that's despite being on official mission from the Prince himself and sworn to secrecy. If Varys _had_ been paying as much attention to Dorne as Doran had feared and if he had truly been on Lannister side, Quent's mission would have been discovered before he even left!

This confirmed for me that Doran had a very wrong impression both of the kind of man Quentyn was and what kind of men his entourage were. And, ultimately, that his judgement of Lord Yronwood, who had staffed this mission was also dangerously off. Generally speaking, the decision to foster Quentyn with the Yronwoods at such a young age is revealed as more and more questionable, IMHO.

I really love this similarity between Quentyn and Arianne's groups, which is far less excusable in the former's case, given that it was a Doran-sanctioned mission, plus how Quentyn was warned to be extremely careful.

The Yronwood fostering decision was born of the discontent Yronwood had with the Martells, and Doran saw this as the only way to pacify things. He may have been right about that, but to then trust a son who's mostly a stranger to him with such a mission is certainly questionable.

Re: Quentyn not thinking of Arianne all that much, IIRC the interesting thing is that he doesn't think about how he was supposed to become the Prince of Dorne either, nor does he feel any resentment over losing this chance. Could it be that Doran actually never sent that fateful letter in the form that Arianne saw? That Doran also kept Quentyn in the dark? That would compound all the tragic misunderstandings that the letter caused between father and daughter.

I never thought of that! I'll have to reread his stuff again, but that's intriguing, for sure. Quentyn may have just had blinders on for the task at hand, plus being a male suitor to a potential queen is more of an empowered position than being the female suitor to a potential king. He may not have felt like he was losing much (he's also not well-loved in Sunspear the way Arianne is...Dorne is everything for her).

And I can only agree with the analysis of Arianne here, as somebody, who is very capable of planning and keeping secrets and who has learned much more from Doran than the latter was willing to give her credit for. Outwardly, Quentyn may have seemed more like Doran, but inwardly, Arianne is much more like her father. Doran was even the one who married a not-completely suitable woman, which subsequently led to problems, so, it isn't like he had been always deliberate and rational when young!

I think that's one thing that's becoming clearer as we get into this reread. You see why Doran made the mistakes; Arianne is pretty and has a libido that makes him uncomfortable. But absolutely Quentyn the Dragontamer is something more out of Oberyn's playbook, whereas the Queenmaker was carefully planned, and relatively well-executed. She just underestimated Doran's omnipresence, and given his seeming refusal to ever act, that's not shocking.

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