Outlander: Waiting for April [SPOILERS: First Season]

[Theda Baratheon]

he has such lovely red curly hair 

[TheKitttenGuard]

41 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

what on earth is going on in this thread why cant we just talk about how handsome jamie is and his lovely, lovely red curls 

I am actually in a lot of agreement with this.  He has magnificent, broad shoulders that are quite inviting and a chest that will make Khan envious. 

[Theda Baratheon]

27 minutes ago, TheKitttenGuard said:

I am actually in a lot of agreement with this.  He has magnificent, broad shoulders that are quite inviting and a chest that will make Khan envious. 

yes he is just really quite a bit lovely isn't he tbh 

[Humble AK]

Zorral

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Um,  where did I call out anyone by name?

 

You didn't, you made a generalized statement about those who are advocating a point of view that differs from your own. You said that their position was indicative of anxiety of their sexual orientation (indicating that they must view homosexuality as a bad thing, ergo homophobia) and that there must be a latent attraciton (homosexual tendencies).

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Um where is the dismantlement of feminist argument here, beyond you are defying what I am telling you?

Well, a condition for dismantlement is initially disagreeing (or 'defying') with the original assertion, and proceeding from there.

You have been arguing an impossible position anyway. All I and others have been saying is that while Outlander is a valid approach to handling gender dynamics, it's not the only way to go about things, and its proficiency of handling these ideas is subjective, particularly in comparison to other shows. Also, sex for titillation is fine, and all shows are welcome to their own approach.

You have to argue that your opinion is fact, that Outlander objectively is better at handling male-female dynamics, that it doesn't use sex exploitatively (counter to evidence of what appeals to female audiences) or for titillation (counter to the showrunners' own comments), or that its version of exploitative/titillating sex is good whereas other versions of exploitative/titillating sex are bad. This isn't a tenable position, but you tried valiantly.

Going back a bit, here's a comment you made:

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The difference between the sex and nudity in got and OL is enormous.  One is used to exploit women by demeaning them.  In OL the entire gamut of a normal woman's sexual life is depicted  from the most tender and loving intimate connections, to wild riding lust to being assaulted -- and all of it is part of a story and character development.  The sex Claier has to heal Jamie is healing and nothing one would ever see, even be dreamed of by got writers.

And this was taken apart easily. You have an arbitrary opinion on what exploitative nudity is, and what is demeaning. By showing that Outlander uses sex for titillation indicates that, as far as the definition of exploitative goes, it applies to Outlander. Some people disputed that Game of Thrones used sex exploitatively, but I think it has been properly demonstrated that both narratives use it in a prurient manner. The degree of difference is pretty arbitrary, and so no one can convince you that one show handles exploitation better than the other, but I think it's been clearly shown that this relies on personal perception, and so the statement that one exploits and demeans and the other does not was hamstrung.

Also, to reiterate (time number 102), Jamie is not a real male character, he's the fantasy male character (in other words, an objectification). This emotional investment provides the necessary ingredient to titillate the female audience.

And in this post you made the important question denoting a misunderstanding prevalent in this thread:

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Why these differences are so difficult for some to see and feel is hard to understand.

It's hard to understand because we disagree with what the definition of exploitation is. As I commented earlier, in this thread guy porn is considered exploitative and demeaning, and women porn is considered progressive entertainment. This isn't a statement that is part of dismantling your points, but it is an observation on the double standards held in this thread and is pretty much at the crux of the disagreement that people are having here.

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My question is why is showing real connection between two people sexually, why is showing that love-lust connection as dreamy, and that it helps bond people, people who are expecting to spend the rest of their lives together and look forward to that, who are also engaged in a mutual quest to 'save the world' -- why is that wrong -- and considered pornography?

This is part of the repetition that has been ensuing for many posts. You (and others) ask, why is emotion in sex pornographic. I, and others respond, that as used in Outlander, it's a fantasy relationship specifically designed to hit all the key points that harlequin novels hit to arouse the female audience. It's emotional, but very fake emotion, because again, the relationship between Claire and Jamie is an idealized fantasy, and Jamie himself is an idealized fantasy (to repeat, and objectification of the male character).

Consumer behavior shows what a female audience wants. As has been noted before, pornography for men is very direct and physical. Pornography for women is typically very focused on the emotion, as you see in the trashy romance novels...and Outlander, which shares many of the relationship developments of those trashy romance novels.

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Why is having a world in which there is no tenderness, love and joy to be found profoundly over a period of years and instead only humiliation, torture and cruelty not porn and totally considered reality?  Because, you know if you know anything about the Middle Ages, that didn't hold true for a whole lot of people of whatever class.

As had been stated before, emotion is not needed to validate something, or make it less exploitative. The definition of exploitation is not "graphic material without emotion". This is what you think exploitation should mean, in other words, your opinion which you think other people should regard as fact.

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And they get killed, one whose murder is made particularly gruesome and the corpose is treated in a demeaning manner.  Are these the only two examples you can bring?  In comparison to the uncountable numbers which are impersonal and deliberately humiliating to the woman?

I forgot to address this specific point, but I have in a general sense in other comments. One of the most forceful ideas that GoT obsesses about is exploitation of others by those in power. It shouldn't be terribly shocking that it happens to everyone, even those involved in a romance. It's impersonal because that's the entire point. It's humiliating to men and women. No one is left unscathed in GoT. Everyone is demeaned because that's a huge part of what the show is about. And it is a salient observation of human interaction in the quest for power and control. Politics demeans pretty much everyone involved, it degrades integrity, it's a horrible machine, but no one knows a good way out of it.

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That (mostly) the men here are so offended by Outlander -- which, imo, is not porn -- and the 50 Shades of Grey, which I guess is?  Wouldn't know, didn't read and won't -- is frustratingly incomprehensible uunless they just don't like sex that is tender, communicative and part of the plot, character and relationship development?

Here's the repetitive question, that has been answered over and over again, and is answered shortly after yet again. I'm not going to give explanation 103, so I'll just point to explanation 102 or any of the others. And of course, your confusion that people were somehow offended by Outlander's approach.

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There were so many women who were traders and entrepreneurs in the so-called Middle Ages, women with agency in so many ways, but only women who are whores are considered realistic, or so it seems from years of reading these arguments on the Got forums and in Miscellaneous.  Weird.  Immature.  Historically quite blind.  Why?

Straw man argument.

And then you linked to an article that didn't really add much to the conversation, other than substantiating the position that Outlander was smut by saying that Outlander was smut.

 

Theda

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what on earth is going on in this thread why cant we just talk about how handsome jamie is and his lovely, lovely red curls  

Haha, well, this is a thread for people to express their opinions about a show. There's a fundemantal difference of opinion about a popularized aspect of the show, so of course that's going to be a heavily discussed issue. Happens with all tv show threads. I think it's more emotional than usual, because for a while some had this idea that their view of feminism, etc, was progressive and extremely enlightened, and that so many shows failed their standards of what a show should do regarding sex and violence and feminism. And then when a show arrives that does meet their criteria, they declare "See everyone, this is obviously how things should be done." And when others come along and say, "Nope, that's not an enlightened view; and while that's a valid approach of a show, it's not the only or even best approach to a show" these people, so convinced that their opinion has to be not just an opinion, but objective fact, get rather passionate.

[Theda Baratheon]

ok im still not sure what is going on and not going to get into this but can i just say im in two minds about the rape scene ?? on one hand it depicted a male on male rape which happens and it portrayed jamie's sense of shame and self loathing really expertly but on the other it was so, SO, SOOOO harrowing as a viewer to watch...

[Mladen]

1 hour ago, Theda Baratheon said:

ok im still not sure what is going on and not going to get into this but

No buts here Seriously, this is probably the wisest choice at this moment. I don't think we have all exhausted our arguments, but I do believe that enough has been said and the debate hasn't moved a bit. We are all entitled to personal opinions and the different views about feminism, pornography, sex in media etc.At some point, we just repeat ourselves and the more we do so, the more frustrated we become and the greater the chances are someone will offend or be offended. So how about we just focus on the second episode without trying to psychoanalyze people who are watching this. Just for the record, I watch it because (1) the aesthetic is amazing (2) I always loved the Scottish culture and (3) I like romance. That's just me. I like shiny pretty things placed in wonderful scenery. And for the end, I am still to be aroused by the show. Perhaps something is malfunctioning but that is another story

Now can we please discuss what a great man Randall is and who would do that? Or at least nitpick the language skills of our heroes? Or what are the chances of seeing cattle this season? 

[Humble AK]

2 minutes ago, Risto said:

No buts here Seriously, this is probably the wisest choice at this moment. I don't think we have all exhausted our arguments, but I do believe that enough has been said and the debate hasn't moved a bit. We are all entitled to personal opinions and the different views about feminism, pornography, sex in media etc.At some point, we just repeat ourselves and the more we do so, the more frustrated we become and the greater the chances are someone will offend or be offended. So how about we just focus on the second episode without trying to psychoanalyze people who are watching this. Just for the record, I watch it because (1) the aesthetic is amazing (2) I always loved the Scottish culture and (3) I like romance.

Fair enough. I agree with points one and two, to the extent that I was thinking of giving this show a second chance, and maybe those two point will allow me to somehow stomach point three. Reading about the second season, it seems like they've done a lot of things right.

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And for the end, I am still to be aroused by the show. Perhaps something is malfunctioning but that is another story

Hahaha. Also for the record, I've yet to become aroused by Game of Thrones. Intent of content to titillate does not equate to effectiveness of content's titillation factor for everyone.

[Theda Baratheon]

i love the scottish history, the scenery, folk and fairy tales and romance so that's why i'm hooked  and the lead actors are magnetic. 

[Theda Baratheon]

and the music is GORGEOUS. keep listening to the soundtrack, especially the woman of balnain <3 

''i am a woman of balnain, the folk have stolen me over again'' <3 

[Mladen]

Just now, Theda Baratheon said:

i love the scottish history, the scenery, folk and fairy tales and romance so that's why i'm hooked  and the lead actors are magnetic. 

I have to say that the intro song was something I couldn't stop humming for months

[Astromech]

3 minutes ago, Risto said:

I have to say that the intro song was something I couldn't stop humming for months

The addition of lyrics in French surprised me.

[Mladen]

Just now, Astromech said:

The addition of lyrics in French surprised me.

Yeah, it was strange... But, not in a clearly bad way, just in a surprisingly different way. 

[Martini Sigil]

I'll say that the only thing that disappointed me about the premiere was that they added orchestration to the opening theme... I loved the slow build-up.... so.... boooooo

[Astromech]

38 minutes ago, Martini Sigil said:

I'll say that the only thing that disappointed me about the premiere was that they added orchestration to the opening theme... I loved the slow build-up.... so.... boooooo

The lack of bagpipes does suck.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

@Humble AK, another post I wholeheartedly agree with and I think you got to the core of the discussion really well. Maybe its best to leave it there I guess, until such time that Outlander is used as a stick to beat Game of Thrones or something else.


Either way, I will say that the theme tune of Outlander is beautiful.

[Theda Baratheon]

I like the theme tune a lot, but the bagpipes maake it!!!

 

I LOOOVE the bard songs tho. 

[Mladen]

The second episode was rather hilarious and stunning in its beauty. The costumes were absolutely amazing. And honey pot line was so good...

[Astromech]

It was a bit too rom-com last night. Most of the jokes fell flat for me: Murtaugh and nipples, dildo rentals, waxed honeypot, Jamie tossing Duverney, constipated King Louis should try porridge.

Prince Charles is an insufferable moron, but of course, he has to be for the show. The brothel scene was a bit of a joke as was Clare and Jamie having extraordinary luck being invited to all these places without having to make their way up the social ladder. Convenient, but necessary I suppose to fit all the important parts of season 2 in.

There were some elements I enjoyed, namely cinematography and design. The sets and costumes were very well done, except for Clare's dress. They nailed the look of the gardens at Versailles, perfectly. The street scenes being filmed in Prague were odd since it looks nothing like Paris. I'm being picky, I know. The one scene with Clare on the stairs looking back over the city with Notre Dame in the background was quite nice, however.

As a non-book reader I have no idea who Hawkins is. I'm assuming an ancestor of Clare's. The most intriguing part of the episode was the Duke of Sandringham and Alex Randall mentioning Black Jack being alive.

I was quite happy to see Dominique Pinon as the apothecary, Maitre Raymond. I can't remember the last time I saw him in something, probably Amelie.

The episode was a bit heavy on clichés and bad jokes. I hope the French court won't be portrayed like this all season, but won't be holding my breath.

 

[SerHaHa]

I'm still quite enjoying this show, a long time fan of Ronald D Moore and Ira Steven Behr from DS9, Battlestar, and now this program.

I'm also descended on my mother's side from the Frasers who moved from Scotland to fight in the 78th Fraser Highlanders in the wars in the 1750s in the 7 years war in North American, many of whom settled into Canada afterwards.  Interestingly, many of these men, including 2 famous officers, fought against the British at Falkirk and Culoden during the Jacobite rebellion in which Outlander's theme (one of) is based upon.  Simon Fraser later led the Scottish regiment in the 7 years war, and the Frasers coming from France originally ensured he had a knowledge of French, which became important in battle vs French forces later - (Plains of Abraham battle which wrested French control of Quebec back to the English, forever). 

Also many pipers from my former band now play with the World Champion Simon Fraser University pipe band, whose crest is the 'Je Suis Pret", which is also my bands, mentioned in the show, being the motto of the Fraser clan during the time period of Outlander.

Having both a family connection as well as through piping which dominated my early life has given me a great interest in Outlander, but even without that it's still been a great experience, I've purchased some of the books and plan on reading them shortly.  I used to compete yearly in Scotland at the world's pipe band competition, and touring the various sites was always as great as the event, especially Edinburgh Castle.

[Mladen]

1 hour ago, Astromech said:

The episode was a bit heavy on clichés and bad jokes. I hope the French court won't be portrayed like this all season, but won't be holding my breath.

 

Cliches sometimes work... I am not too happy with the way French court is presented and I have no idea whether they were able to ascend so quickly (which was practically impossible to do at such short notice), but as far as the jokes go, they worked for me. As someone who comes from a bit traditional surrounding, I know how some men can react when bikini wax is in question. I believe they wanted to point out how Dorothy-like they must felt during their visit, as you would expect from Scottish Highlander to feel on French court. 

As for costumes, they were truly beautiful. I have to say I liked the dress Claire wore during the meeting with Hawkins more than the red one, but I see the point they have been making. I think most TV series nowadays want to show how open in some ways people were at the time, but the thing is that, despite their proclivities, there was always facade of piety and manners. I think most the medieval shows don't have the subtlety to which people back then operated.