Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Cavendish

What was Lady's purpose in the books for Sansa?

Recommended Posts

Because of Lady's death, she makes the predictions I have for Sansa shaky and I don't know what will happen.



What do you think GRRM has in plan for Sansa? I used to think she would have somehow brought the Starks back through political power, but the theories about her dying are making me nervous because Lady died, and apparently a direwolf means that Stark is safe unless they both die.



From Sansa wanting to become Alayne Stone 24/7, being sacrificed for something, getting killed, kidnapped again, not playing a large role in the books/series, these are all hanging in the back of my mind solely because of the fact Lady is gone. I read even someplace that apparently she will be the only Stark that won't develop warging abilities just because Lady died.



One that grabs my attention big time is that Lady dieing severed Sansa's connection to her house, and that's why she immersed herself in the role of Alayne so much. What do you guys think? Why did GRRM make it out so that Lady would get killed, and would it changed your outlook on Sansa's future compared to if Lady was alive? I hope Lady dying is just Lady dying though...


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm looking forward to hearing other people's reactions, but I keep waiting for a little more to be made of the fact that Sansa is the Stark kid without a direwolf. Perhaps this will be resolved when things are tied up.



But one effect of it is to make a lot of people really haaaaate Cersei. They'll forgive a lot, but not killing Lady.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, first, Jon had to find a matching set to convince Ned to spare the puppies. "There is one for everyone of your trueborn sons except for one of your daughters" doesn't ring the same as "three boys, two girls, three male pups, two female pups"



Nonetheless, Lady couldn't be at KL when Joffrey abused Sansa. On top, it would seem that Sansa's arc doesn't involve superpowers so, while there are a few hints in the text that support the SSM that she's also a warg, it's an ability she might never develop. On top, GRRM created Sansa as the black sheep of the family.



So, what's the best way to separate Lady and Sansa? Why, using her to begin to shatter her castle of illusions. The fact that it doesn't break apart at the first hit adds fuel to the tragedy (and the character's idiocy)


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is just as you said, the begining of her being cut off from everyone she knows. In her eyes everyone she ever loved is dead, Jon doesnt count because she didnt really count him as her real brother. Even her extended family is gone with Lysa having that base jumping accident and Edmure being in captivity/fate unknown to her.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I came up with a theory a while back that Sansa will warg a falcon as part of her taking over the Vale. She has been called a bird multiple times, she is a warg, and Falcons a predators like Direwolves, but are basically the Vales version.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I came up with a theory a while back that Sansa will warg a falcon as part of her taking over the Vale. She has been called a bird multiple times, she is a warg, and Falcons a predators like Direwolves, but are basically the Vales version.

This is a common theory among those who like Sansa as a character, as I do, I personally really like the idea of her being the "Wolf of the sky".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The wolves were creatures out of myth in Westeros and of all the Stark children Sansa was the most enamored of stories. Regardless of the issues of having a direwolf at court, by Sansa losing Lady it severed her ties to her world of myth, she now has to make herself, she doesn't have a mythical beast to protect her. I think because of that she may eventually emerge as one of the most worldly survivors of the stories. My thinking is that the world of magic that is growing now, will die by the end, and because Sansa is now disconnected from that, she will be the one to succeed where others fail.

One nice thing to remember though is that Sophie Turner adopted the dog who played Lady, so in a way they are still together. ...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, first, Jon had to find a matching set to convince Ned to spare the puppies. "There is one for everyone of your trueborn sons except for one of your daughters" doesn't ring the same as "three boys, two girls, three male pups, two female pups"

Nonetheless, Lady couldn't be at KL when Joffrey abused Sansa. On top, it would seem that Sansa's arc doesn't involve superpowers so, while there are a few hints in the text that support the SSM that she's also a warg, it's an ability she might never develop. On top, GRRM created Sansa as the black sheep of the family.

So, what's the best way to separate Lady and Sansa? Why, using her to begin to shatter her castle of illusions. The fact that it doesn't break apart at the first hit adds fuel to the tragedy (and the character's idiocy)

Agreed, for the most part. The Stark kids got them because of symmetry. Killing Lady was an emotional scene and it started Sansa losing touch with her family. Arya is also without her wolf, and both girls are going through identity crises.

One nice thing to remember though is that Sophie Turner adopted the dog who played Lady, so in a way they are still together. ...

:blushing:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lady would good and polite, and she was still caught up with the wrong people at the wrong time, and died because of it. At least in my mind, it foreshadows what will happen later to Sansa. Except Sansa didn't die, she adapted.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought I read a while ago where GRRM said losing her wolf makes Sansa weaker than the other Starks.


But also it served to drive a wedge between Arya and Sansa, I don't know if that will play out more in the later books.


And also, it was the first event to show that life at court was not as rosy and idealistic as she had pictured, of course she gets a lot more examples as the book goes on.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lady would good and polite,

This is another thing. Lady is one of the clear examples, by the beginning of AGOT, that direwolves aren't mere pets - Lady is too unwolfish. The other clear hint is the wolves reaction to Bran's coma

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lady's death represents Sansa's loss of innocence and the loss of her inner "Lady", her ideals. It's the first example of "Life is not a song." Lady was a lot like Sansa - Always polite and eager to please, even docile. It is similar to the mask Sansa has to wear in King's Landing in order to survive.



And I disagree with the main line of thinking - That it somehow shows Sansa's disconnection with her family. Sansa's been more and more connected with her Stark ties ever since ACOK. And if Sansa is losing herself into Alayne, then Arya is also losing herself in becoming no one. I don't think any will "lose" themselves - Remember, this is the middle, not the end. Alayne and No one are only transformation phases.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agreed, for the most part. The Stark kids got them because of symmetry. Killing Lady was an emotional scene and it started Sansa losing touch with her family. Arya is also without her wolf, and both girls are going through identity crises.

:blushing:

Don't really see this. Arya is in touch with Nymeria, what appears to be, every night.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Lady's death represented the forced "taming" of Sansa at the hands of the Lannisters. Direwolves are sigil of the Starks, and without her wolf, Sansa is later forced to denounce her family, then married off against her will, then forced to adopt an entirely new persona. Sansa begs for Lady to be spared, just like how later on all she'll want will be to return home to be with her family, but is denied on both counts.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sansa is destined to marry and consumate, thus no longer being a Stark is one theory. Another is that there are prices you pay for certain dishonorable things. She betrayed her sister by lying to protect Joffrey. She betrayed her STARK family, their sigil is the Direwolf. She therefore lot hers, Lady. It strikes me as symbolically saying. You, Sansa are no longer worhy of being a STARK.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Lady's death represented the forced "taming" of Sansa at the hands of the Lannisters. Direwolves are sigil of the Starks, and without her wolf, Sansa is later forced to denounce her family, then married off against her will, then forced to adopt an entirely new persona. Sansa begs for Lady to be spared, just like how later on all she'll want will be to return home to be with her family, but is denied on both counts.

I would also add that it stands for the unsuccessful "taming" as well.

Septa Mordane sniffed in disapproval. "A noble lady does not feed dogs at her table," she said, breaking off another piece of comb and letting the honey drip down onto her bread. "She's not a dog, she's a direwolf," Sansa pointed out as Lady licked her fingers with a rough tongue. "Anyway, Father said we could keep them with us if we want."

The septa was not appeased. "You're a good girl, Sansa, but I do vow, when it comes to that creature you're as willful as your sister Arya."

This part is interesting because until this point Arya has been compared unfavorably to Arya.

Sansa has been established as the obedient, pretty, courteous sister, whereas Arya is the ugly one, who refuses to conform to etiquette.

Much later, Cat tells Brienne that Sansa has been a proper lady since the age of three.

The only thing that distinguishes Sansa from other ladies close to her age, such as Myrcella, Margaery and Arianne, is Lady.

She is a perfect, well mannered lady who also happens to have a wild beast as her pet.

In that aspect, she is no different to Arya, who is also escorted by a direwolf.

What makes the symbolism stronger is that it was Ned who killed Sansa's direwolf,

"That was Arya's wolf," she said. "Lady never hurt you, but you killed her anyway."

"No, your father did," Joff said, "but I killed your father."

Also, the incident with Lady it was an unpleasant and abrupt introduction to the world beyond Winterfell.

Ned compared Sansa's begging to Lyanna's

He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once.

Natalia Tena in an interview also shared her thoughts on the subject

You mentioned a book that you said every woman should read. What was that?

Women Who Run With the Wolves, by Clarissa Pinkola Estes. She has a Jungian perspective on helping people deal with bad shit. And she basically talks about how women, our psyche is a wolf, and trying to strip down all the bullshit of being what a woman is [so you can ask,] What is a woman?

If the female psyche is a wolf, what do you think it means for the two Stark girls who are missing their wolves?

That's kind of why their shit's not going great! They need that power. That's a very basic thing. I think it's very sad, and very telling, that the father kills one of the daughter's wolves — the author of Women Who Run With the Wolveswould be like, "Ah! What does that mean?" She's hitting puberty and he's trying to rein her in. That's what she would say to that. That's what they need. They need their wolves back, right? Arya needs Nymeria, right? Then everything would change. I'm hoping in the next book, the sixth book, that will happen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, first, Jon had to find a matching set to convince Ned to spare the puppies. "There is one for everyone of your trueborn sons except for one of your daughters" doesn't ring the same as "three boys, two girls, three male pups, two female pups"

Nonetheless, Lady couldn't be at KL when Joffrey abused Sansa. On top, it would seem that Sansa's arc doesn't involve superpowers so, while there are a few hints in the text that support the SSM that she's also a warg, it's an ability she might never develop. On top, GRRM created Sansa as the black sheep of the family.

So, what's the best way to separate Lady and Sansa? Why, using her to begin to shatter her castle of illusions. The fact that it doesn't break apart at the first hit adds fuel to the tragedy (and the character's idiocy)

No, not the black sheep, just a foil or opposite to Arya and to have at least one member of house Stark is different from the others; for family tension, as few families are 100 percent homogeneous.

As we read we see Sansa is as much a wolf as the the rest of her siblings just the coin's other side being shown, she lost her wolf she is separated from her home, had her idealistic nature beaten out of her, she has seen liars and cheats, she has seen death and rapes ( just like Arya and Jon ); she is learning differently from what her siblings are learning and without the magic ( reserved for Bran ) Sansa is heading to the political spectrum how far she goes I have no clue, but I do believe she will be the main force for the return of House Stark,with Arya knowingly or unknowingly working with her as together they would be the Starks equivalent to QOT and Margery just younger.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I actually think Sweet Robin will warg a falcon if anyone does. Sansa has worked to build a close relationship with him such that he trusts her. so on some way it will benefit her.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is certainly symbolism, but not everything has to mean something more than it means. There has to be room for plot to just be plot. And GRRM likes the chaos of a bunch of people making decisions that perturb each other's plans. Bloodraven presumably sent the wolves to the Starks. Cersei realized that Joffrey would never be safe with Lady in the capital (also WTF were Ned and Catelyn thinking the direwolves would do in the capital?). So Cersei had Lady killed. The killing of Lady was an important moment for the reader to realize what kind of story this would be, and was an important story beat in aGoT.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×