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Cavendish

What was Lady's purpose in the books for Sansa?

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I think Lady's death represented the forced "taming" of Sansa at the hands of the Lannisters.

Perhaps in general "tame" wolves are destined for a bad end; a true wolf should not or cannot be tamed.

Lady was the most tame and pretty, and Sansa trying to be the sterotypical perfect "good girl" is arguably what led to her bad choice of siding with Joffrey and the other enemies of the Starks.

Grey Wind and Ghost both get locked up for being too "wild" just before something bad happens to Robb and Jon.

Shaggydog and Summer briefly get locked up, but prove their worth to Rickon and Bran's safety when they are free.

Nymeria has lived more wild than the rest of the Stark direwolves, and become a true predator - and so has Arya. Arya's also been living wild, and though not always free, she has always escaped from peril and triumphed over adversity because she listens to her instincts.

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I think Ladys death was the death of Sansas Starkdom, even though it was the weakest to begin with.



Directly after her first decent sized family betrayal (lying about what happened between Joffrey. Arya, Micah, and Nymeria) she is killed and Sansa decisions only get worse from there.


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I think Ladys death was the death of Sansas Starkdom, even though it was the weakest to begin with.

Directly after her first decent sized family betrayal (lying about what happened between Joffrey. Arya, Micah, and Nymeria) she is killed and Sansa decisions only get worse from there.

Are we reading the same books?

Sansa's more Stark then ever, we are in her mind after all, she's just not as flamboyant as her siblings, just more subtle which is just the type of persons the Starks are missing in their team play.

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Birds "fly South" for the winter. And Sansa will be the Stark who will play the Southron Game of Thrones as the formidable Lady of the North. Because the North remembers... and so does Sansa Stark. She is Cat reborn.

That's hot. But why bother warging one bird when she can hope to control the entire bird-sigil nation of Arryn's bannermen? Doesn't warging animals pale in comparison to what she's poised to do with people? Fly south on horseback at the head of the Vale army, baby, yeah!

Are we reading the same books?

Sansa's more Stark then ever

We are not all reading from the same book. If we were, do you have any idea how long the waiting list would be to get your hands on that book?

Sansa used to be named Stark and now she isn't, so it's tough for me to agree with your "she's more Stark than ever." But I think it's true that she values and appreciates the name more now that it's lost, compared to when she had it and was a snob. It's fair to say her current actions mark her as a truer Stark than she acted like before. But what's still missing is she doesn't yet really want to be a Stark again. Alayne likes being on the sidelines too much. That's what needs to change before we bestow on her the More Stark Than Ever title. You know how at the end of Return of the King you had Frodo all of a sudden start sprinting his ass up the side of the volcano with all the speed and strength he had left? And the music went crazy, and you started crying just a lil' bit (unless you were already crying because you had to pee so bad by the 5th hour of that movie). Anyway, the point is that Frodo had finally reached his "fuck it!" moment and had decided to get back in the game and go all in and just freaking finish it. One way or the other. That's what I'm hoping we'll see a Sansa-fied version of. I wanna see her have that Oscar Clip moment when she drops the mask forever and decides that by God she wants it back and she's done hanging in the shadows.

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That's hot. But why bother warging one bird when she can hope to control the entire bird-sigil nation of Arryn's bannermen? Doesn't warging animals pale in comparison to what she's poised to do with people? Fly south on horseback at the head of the Vale army, baby, yeah!

Ooh, yes! I'm all for this!

(I just don't understand readers of this series who question Sansa's badassery, or her bonafides as a Stark. I adore the girl and cannot wait for what GRRM has in store for her, in the controversial chapter, and in all of TWoW. Perpetual victim, she is not... and her enemies will soon learn this.)

You want her Arya killing Tickler moment?

Absolutely. My guess is that Arya will look merciful compared to what Sansa will do to LF.

Sansa Stark is absolutely a She-Wolf of Winterfell, deep down. If, as we suspect, Stark children may be able to warg into their direwolves after death (which is why GRRM not only killed poor Robb at the RW, but Grey Wind as well), I wonder if a portion of Lady ended up in Sansa, either strengthening her against the physical and psychological torture of being the Lannisters' hostage... or lying dormant until she sits down to play the Game.

(I cannot wait!)

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Begs the question of who her "Tickler" opposite would be. Lyn Corbray perhaps ?

Littlefinger? House Frey?

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We are not all reading from the same book. If we were, do you have any idea how long the waiting list would be to get your hands on that book?

Sansa used to be named Stark and now she isn't, so it's tough for me to agree with your "she's more Stark than ever." But I think it's true that she values and appreciates the name more now that it's lost, compared to when she had it and was a snob.

Clearly, because you're quite wrong about this. Sansa has never lost her name. Sansa has always been a Stark and is still a Stark, in her mind and in the books. It's only Stannis who thinks of her as anything but Sansa Stark, and that's just to try and push Jon into his agenda.

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Ladys death could just be GRRM's way of warning everyone to be careful what you wish for.

Sansa wanted to be joffs queen. Until she found out she.didn't

Jeyne poole wanted to marry a lord, until she married Lord ramsey

Bran wanted excitment and adventure, now hes living in a tree

Arya wanted independence, but shes begining to hate not belonging.

Theon wanted to belong to the starks, his family someone. Now he belongs to ramsey.

Ladys death could just be a lesson for sansa. A rough one yes. But really having dreams in westeros can be very bad for you.

P.s. Another one is shae she wanted a lord to take care of her, well she did get that.

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Would anyone consider it a deus ex machina if Sansa's powers awakened in Book 6?

Absolutely. Specially considering that it took entire books for her siblings to successfully warg their wolves

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The real mistake is assuming that GRRM needs to give characters a "purpose". I assume he wanted to show that shit happens and sometimes things don't work out the way we think they will. Everyone assumed all the dire wolves would be significant GRRM obviously wanted to show that in life a plot or story doesn't always work out like a well oiled machine. This was near the beginning of GOT so he probably just wanted to throw a wrench into everything we assumed the series would be. To sow that no matter how important we perceive a character or connection is in life shit happens and in his books no one is safe.


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Absolutely. My guess is that Arya will look merciful compared to what Sansa will do to LF.

This part I doubt.

While I can see Sansa developing the ability to be cunning and cold-blooded in her dealings with some who've wronged her, I do not see her plunging Arya-like into a black storm of vengeance.

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I believe the purpose of lady was to show a naive young girl that everything isn't flowers and roses and the world can be harsh even for nobles, she I'll get Nymeria when arya dies

I doubt that. First of all if Arya dies Nymeria might be dead already. Second, some thought the lone wolf died but the pack survives means Arya dies but in her second life still has her pack of wolves which means even in death the wolf is Arya's. Arya would likely go into Nymeria anyways.

Third, some thought it was an ending where Arya can truly become the predator. Nymeria's killing is only going to get worse in the winter. That's the height time for wolves and killing and game is going to be scarce. She can't realistically live in normal society so I doubt she'd live with any Stark. Who knows if she'd even want to. She didn't stay around Robb and Cat even thought they were in the Riverlands. Sure she got the body but that wasn't enough to leave her pack and all the hunting of men she does. Anyways, my point was that she kills Robb's subjects even innocents. Lords in the Riverland wanted her dead because of that. Going to another Stark would be the same thing only as I said after winter she's going to be even worse and that Stark would be directly responsible for her behavior. It's only a matter of time before a mob asks for her death. She should just be like all the other direwolves and live wild in the woods away from people.

Anyways, it's interesting the notion of Sansa being cold-blooded and cunning and vengeful would be great qualities but in Arya they're all used to explain why she must be a psychopath. Although in truth cold-blooded and cunning are associated with psychopathy but of course not everyone or even most is one who is that way.

I also don't think Sansa will kill LF. She may have something to do with his death but he will be killed by another.

From Barriston II:

The Little Pigeon was not quite a dwarf, but he might have passed for one in a bad light. Yet he strutted about as if he were a giant, with his plump little legs spread wide and his plump little chest puffed out.

Little Pigeon, he trips over the fringes of his bird armor and gets caught by the Red Lamb. The Little Pigeon begs for mercy, saying that he will fetch a large ransom. The Red Lamb just says I came for blood, not gold

the one the other boys called Red Lamb, though as yet that one was all ferocity and no technique.

& LF had previously said:

“I’ve never been frightened of shepherds. It’s the sheep who trouble me. Still, I suppose an escort might be in order.”

This to me implies she can be the one who turned him in or reveals him but someone else will actually do the deed which I think sounds in character.

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Lady started Sansa down the road that Sandor continues and Littlefinger finishes; that life is not a song.


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Sansa is destined to marry and consumate, thus no longer being a Stark is one theory. Another is that there are prices you pay for certain dishonorable things. She betrayed her sister by lying to protect Joffrey. She betrayed her STARK family, their sigil is the Direwolf. She therefore lot hers, Lady. It strikes me as symbolically saying. You, Sansa are no longer worhy of being a STARK.

I'd really like to know how somebody can be unworthy of belonging to a certain family. All you need to do to become a Stark is to have a Stark as a father and his legal wife as your mother which Sansa qualifies on both counts. She is a Stark from her birth and forever after. A hundred direwolves dying doesn't change that.

And what does Ned, himself killing Sansa's wolf say symbolically?

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