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Cavendish

What was Lady's purpose in the books for Sansa?

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Sansa is destined to marry and consumate, thus no longer being a Stark is one theory. Another is that there are prices you pay for certain dishonorable things. She betrayed her sister by lying to protect Joffrey. She betrayed her STARK family, their sigil is the Direwolf. She therefore lot hers, Lady. It strikes me as symbolically saying. You, Sansa are no longer worhy of being a STARK.

Complete and utter nonsense.

Catelyn married into the Stark family and was known as both Tully and Stark, and proud of both. Cersei on the other hand married a Baratheon yet didn't "lose" her connection to the Lannisters. Marriage =/= losing rights to one's birth name. GRRM confirmed, noble women go by the same they prefer and you've largely misread the text if you think Sansa doesn't perefer Winterfelll and the north.

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It is just as you said, the begining of her being cut off from everyone she knows. In her eyes everyone she ever loved is dead, Jon doesnt count because she didnt really count him as her real brother. Even her extended family is gone with Lysa having that base jumping accident and Edmure being in captivity/fate unknown to her.

She had not thought of Jon in ages. He was only her half brother, but still . . . with Robb and Bran and Rickon dead, Jon Snow was the only brother that remained to her. I am a bastard too now, just like him. Oh, it would be so sweet, to see him once again.

Sansa is destined to marry and consumate, thus no longer being a Stark is one theory. Another is that there are prices you pay for certain dishonorable things. She betrayed her sister by lying to protect Joffrey. She betrayed her STARK family, their sigil is the Direwolf. She therefore lot hers, Lady. It strikes me as symbolically saying. You, Sansa are no longer worhy of being a STARK.

Bullshit. Marrying does not make a woman change her identity. She would still be a Stark. Cersei is still a Lannister, Margaery is still a Tyrell, Catelyn was still a Tully (though she identified with Stark more than the above mentioned ladies), Genna is still a Lannister, Elia was still a Martell etc.

The rest of your post isn't even worth commenting on.

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The correct question would be "What was the purpose of Lady's death?", not what was the purpose of Lady. Was there ever a scenario where Lady did not exist, but Robb, Arya, Bran, Rickon and Jon go direwolf puppies nevertheless? Obviously not. The whole point of the direwolves is that all Stark kids got one and they all have mystical connections to them. And if there had not been three male and two female puppies (before they found Ghost), Ned would not have allowed the children to keep them in the first place, since this was exactly what convinced him that there was a mystical connection and that gods wanted the kids to have the direwolves.



So, how would it all work out if Lady was still alive? Sansa's plot would not work the same way, because she would, most obviously, have had a big, dangerous direwolf to protect her, or Joffrey and Cersei would do their best to kill Lady neverthless; and she'd also have had a direwolf companion to express her instinctive feelings about people and who she could and could not trust. I don't see how the plot of Sansa being a helpless hostage at court and having to learn to survive would have worked with Lady alive and around. I guess she could have ran away like Nymeria, but both direwolves running away would have been a bit too cute and repetitive, and GRRM needed Cersei to kill a wolf to get more tragedy out of the event (Arya already faced tragedy since her friend Mycah was murdered).


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That's hot. But why bother warging one bird when she can hope to control the entire bird-sigil nation of Arryn's bannermen? Doesn't warging animals pale in comparison to what she's poised to do with people? Fly south on horseback at the head of the Vale army, baby, yeah!

We are not all reading from the same book. If we were, do you have any idea how long the waiting list would be to get your hands on that book?

Sansa used to be named Stark and now she isn't, so it's tough for me to agree with your "she's more Stark than ever." But I think it's true that she values and appreciates the name more now that it's lost, compared to when she had it and was a snob. It's fair to say her current actions mark her as a truer Stark than she acted like before. But what's still missing is she doesn't yet really want to be a Stark again. Alayne likes being on the sidelines too much. That's what needs to change before we bestow on her the More Stark Than Ever title. You know how at the end of Return of the King you had Frodo all of a sudden start sprinting his ass up the side of the volcano with all the speed and strength he had left? And the music went crazy, and you started crying just a lil' bit (unless you were already crying because you had to pee so bad by the 5th hour of that movie). Anyway, the point is that Frodo had finally reached his "fuck it!" moment and had decided to get back in the game and go all in and just freaking finish it. One way or the other. That's what I'm hoping we'll see a Sansa-fied version of. I wanna see her have that Oscar Clip moment when she drops the mask forever and decides that by God she wants it back and she's done hanging in the shadows.

I don't think that's how she will roll, She be more like the QOT, kill the family enemies with guile and kindness two faces we will see.

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Ooh, yes! I'm all for this!

(I just don't understand readers of this series who question Sansa's badassery, or her bonafides as a Stark. I adore the girl and cannot wait for what GRRM has in store for her, in the controversial chapter, and in all of TWoW. Perpetual victim, she is not... and her enemies will soon learn this.)

Absolutely. My guess is that Arya will look merciful compared to what Sansa will do to LF.

Sansa Stark is absolutely a She-Wolf of Winterfell, deep down. If, as we suspect, Stark children may be able to warg into their direwolves after death (which is why GRRM not only killed poor Robb at the RW, but Grey Wind as well), I wonder if a portion of Lady ended up in Sansa, either strengthening her against the physical and psychological torture of being the Lannisters' hostage... or lying dormant until she sits down to play the Game.

(I cannot wait!)

They bonded, Sansa just did not Warg her as she was sacrificed by Ned.

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When winter comes the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. Sansa is farthest removed from the pack in terms of warging and connection to the family. Having lost her wolf, she has lost the ability to sense the others. She's in grave danger but if she can get back to her family somehow (I think even just getting to Rickon would work) she will be ok.



Arya too is in danger, but still has the Nymeria connection to keep her from completely forgetting who she is. She will return to Westeros and her family and may be the one who leads the remaining three (assuming Bran gets out of that tree and back below the Wall). It's significant that Nymeria is the one who leads a pack. It's also significant that Nymeria pulled Cat's body from the Trident. Arya's story in Westeros is not finished yet.


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Lady dying shows that Sansa is not a true Stark!


Sansa will die alone for betraying her family!


She deserved everything that happened to her!


:commie: :commie: :commie: :commie: :commie: :commie:


Let the Sansa fans come!


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This part I doubt.

While I can see Sansa developing the ability to be cunning and cold-blooded in her dealings with some who've wronged her, I do not see her plunging Arya-like into a black storm of vengeance.

You're being literal here. Arya ended the Tickler in a display of cruelty. You can't see a future Sansa ending one of the Starks' many enemies with a few words as the powerful Lady of one of the Great Houses?

Lady dying shows that Sansa is not a true Stark!

Sansa will die alone for betraying her family!

She deserved everything that happened to her!

:commie: :commie: :commie: :commie: :commie: :commie:

Let the Sansa fans come!

:devil:

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Actually thinking about this more sincerely, I think Lady's death had a threefold purpose. First, most obviously, is the plot development. Sansa can't suffer in KL if Lady is still alive, and Arya wouldn't be able to hide if she had Nymeria trailing her, nor would she need to.

Secondly, from a characterization standpoint, this is the first conflict in the books, and it introduces us to the characters. Joffrey is a liar and a jerk, Arya is a fighter, Ned is just and will stand up to Robert, but Robert won't stand up to Cersei. Cersei is a jerk, Renly laughs at everything, and so on. You get the point.

Third, I think how Lady's death plays out foreshadows the events in KL following Robert's death. Sansa (Lady) is taken captive (killed), Arya (Nymeria) escapes the Red Keep (runs away to the forest), Robert walks away, removing himself from the situation (dead, which removes him from the situation). Renly leaves the tent after mocking Joffrey (leaves Kl after he can't kidnap Joffrey). And, of course, Ned loses to Cersei because she is playing politics and lying, and Ned is too honorable and honest to do that.

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Actually thinking about this more sincerely, I think Lady's death had a threefold purpose. First, most obviously, is the plot development. Sansa can't suffer in KL if Lady is still alive, and Arya wouldn't be able to hide if she had Nymeria trailing her, nor would she need to.

Secondly, from a characterization standpoint, this is the first conflict in the books, and it introduces us to the characters. Joffrey is a liar and a jerk, Arya is a fighter, Ned is just and will stand up to Robert, but Robert won't stand up to Cersei. Cersei is a jerk, Renly laughs at everything, and so on. You get the point.

Third, I think how Lady's death plays out foreshadows the events in KL following Robert's death. Sansa (Lady) is taken captive (killed), Arya (Nymeria) escapes the Red Keep (runs away to the forest), Robert walks away, removing himself from the situation (dead, which removes him from the situation). Renly leaves the tent after mocking Joffrey (leaves Kl after he can't kidnap Joffrey). And, of course, Ned loses to Cersei because she is playing politics and lying, and Ned is too honorable and honest to do that.

Good points. And while I think that the loss of Lady doesn't kill Sansa's Stark-ness, I do think it symbolizes something. Just not sure what yet, although I'm pretty convinced by my own bird and Bran/raven comparisons.

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Lady dying shows that Sansa is not a true Stark!

Sansa will die alone for betraying her family!

She deserved everything that happened to her!

Let the Sansa fans come!

Eh, this is too simplisitic to be worth refuting.

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Eh, this is too simplisitic to be worth refuting.

Yeah at least blame Sansa for a few natural disasters, kicking off Wo5K and blame her for causing greyscale.

Actually thinking about this more sincerely, I think Lady's death had a threefold purpose. First, most obviously, is the plot development. Sansa can't suffer in KL if Lady is still alive, and Arya wouldn't be able to hide if she had Nymeria trailing her, nor would she need to.

Secondly, from a characterization standpoint, this is the first conflict in the books, and it introduces us to the characters. Joffrey is a liar and a jerk, Arya is a fighter, Ned is just and will stand up to Robert, but Robert won't stand up to Cersei. Cersei is a jerk, Renly laughs at everything, and so on. You get the point.

Third, I think how Lady's death plays out foreshadows the events in KL following Robert's death. Sansa (Lady) is taken captive (killed), Arya (Nymeria) escapes the Red Keep (runs away to the forest), Robert walks away, removing himself from the situation (dead, which removes him from the situation). Renly leaves the tent after mocking Joffrey (leaves Kl after he can't kidnap Joffrey). And, of course, Ned loses to Cersei because she is playing politics and lying, and Ned is too honorable and honest to do that.

:agree:

Never really thought about it like that before. It was very insightful.

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Contrary to popular belief, being a Stark isn't an honor bestowed on a chosen few, to be taken away when one falls short of arbitrary qualifications. It's a family, not a exclusive club.

Given all that has happened to the Starks throughout the series, personally if I had been born a Stark I think I would ask to be put up for adoption. Jon Snow has it right when Stannis asks him if he wants to be a Jon Stark and lord of Winterfell, Jons like no thanks I'll stay here at the wall. Arya decides to become a faceless man, Bran says hell I'd rather turn into a tree and Sansa at the point of thinking well being a bastard didn't turn out so bad for Jon, maybe it will work for her. Even lady Stoneheart like yeah doing that Stark thing didn't work out so well last time. Let's be someone else. Rickons a cannabal with the stone people on Skaggos. The rest of the Starks are either dead or missing. So I say adoption, being a maester, wall then slavery be the order I go to lose that cursed last name of Stark.

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Well, one one level I agree that Lady's death represented the symbolic death of Sansa's ideals, her own betrayal of her family at that point, and also, at that early stage in the book it functioned as a pretty good symbolic indicator that the Lannisters were going to (at least superficially) destroy the Starks.



But I don't think this means that Sansa is not a warg (I am also pretty sure Martin has said all the Stark children are wargs, to an extent). My favourite theory is the one that Sansa has become a warg of people, an empathic warg when she touches skin (hence her 'unkiss' with Sandor in ACoK). Considering how many times she has touched LF, she may perhaps be the only person in Westeros who knows what he really wants.... pretty powerful. And as she matures into a sexual being, this may mean there is a potential for her to be a real femme fatale. Her lack of wolf makes her unique among the Starks, and also stops her being a clone of any of her siblings.



And as for her being the 'weakest' Stark, she has done a way better job of surviving than Robb or Ned....so far, anyway.



But, haters gonna hate, sadly.


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Well, one one level I agree that Lady's death represented the symbolic death of Sansa's ideals, her own betrayal of her family at that point, and also, at that early stage in the book it functioned as a pretty good symbolic indicator that the Lannisters were going to (at least superficially) destroy the Starks.

But I don't think this means that Sansa is not a warg (I am also pretty sure Martin has said all the Stark children are wargs, to an extent). My favourite theory is the one that Sansa has become a warg of people, an empathic warg when she touches skin (hence her 'unkiss' with Sandor in ACoK). Considering how many times she has touched LF, she may perhaps be the only person in Westeros who knows what he really wants.... pretty powerful. And as she matures into a sexual being, this may mean there is a potential for her to be a real femme fatale. Her lack of wolf makes her unique among the Starks, and also stops her being a clone of any of her siblings.

And as for her being the 'weakest' Stark, she has done a way better job of surviving than Robb or Ned....so far, anyway.

But, haters gonna hate, sadly.

Ooh, I like this theory.

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