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Jon Weirgaryen

R+L=J v.108

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Reference guide

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:
Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:
Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:
Jon Snow Theories


Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?
Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targaryen fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?
Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Some of the Great Bastards did not have typical Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?
Much is made over the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya. Ned and Lyanna shared similar looks.

How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?
Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?
The evidence that Jon is legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the Kingsguard opted to stay at the Tower of Joy stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a Kingsguard's vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty.
For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.

But polygamy hadn't been practiced in centuries, is it still even legal?
The practice was never made illegal and there may have been some less prominent examples after Maegor, as stated in this SSM. Furthermore, Jorah suggests it to Dany as a viable option.

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?
Aerys was sane enough to realize how taking someone hostage works even at the end of the Rebellion, and he would hardly miss the opportunity to bring Ned and Robert in line any time after the situation started to look really serious.
Furthermore, regardless of on whose order the Kingsguard might have stayed at Tower of Joy, they would still be in dereliction of their duty to guard the new king.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?
The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the A Song of Ice and Fire readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 18 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?
Ned doesn't think about anyone as being his mother. He says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, but does not actively think that Wylla is the mother. He also doesn't think of Jon as his son. There are numerous mysteries in the series, and Jon's parentage is one of those. If Ned thought about Jon being Lyanna's son, it would not be a mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon care? Who cares if he's legitimate?
Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Since this theory has been refined so well, will Martin change the outcome of the story to surprise his fans?
No, he said he won't change the outcome of the story only because some people have put together all the clues and solved the puzzle.


Previous editions:

Please click on the spoiler below to reveal links to all previous editions of this thread

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread one)

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread two)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III)” (thread three)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV)” (thread four)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V)” (thread five)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)” (thread six)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII” (thread seven)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII” (thread eight)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX” (thread nine)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X”(thread ten)

The R+L=J thread, part XI” (thread eleven)

The R+L=J thread, part XII” (thread twelve)

R+L=J Part XXIII” (thread thirteen)

R+L=J Part XXIV” (thread fourteen)

R+L=J XXV” (thread fifteen)

R+L=J v.16” (thread sixteen)

R+L=J v.17” (thread seventeen)

R+L=J v.18” (thread eighteen)

R+L=J v.19” (thread nineteen)

R+L=J v.20” (thread twenty)

R+L=J v.21” (thread twenty-one)

R+L=J v.22” (thread twenty-two)

R+L=J v.22a” (thread twenty-two (a))

R+L=J v.23” (thread twenty-three)

R+L=J v.24” (thread twenty-four)

R+L=J v.25” (thread twenty-five)

R+L=J v.26” (thread twenty-six)

R+L=J v.27” (thread twenty-seven)

R+L=J v.28” (thread twenty-eight)

R+L=J v.29” (thread twenty-nine)

R+L=J v.30” (thread thirty)

R+L=J v.31” (thread thirty-one)

R+L=J v.32” (thread thirty-two)

R+L=J v.33” (thread thirty-three)

R+L=J v.34” (thread thirty-four)

R+L=J v.35” (thread thirty-five)

R+L=J v.36” (thread thirty-six)

R+L=J v.37” (thread thirty-seven)

R+L=J v.38” (thread thirty-eight)

R+L=J v.39” (thread thirty-nine)

"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)

"R+L=J v.41" (thread forty-one)

"R+L=J v.42" (thread forty-two)

"R+L=J v.43" (thread forty-three)

"R+L=J v.44" (thread forty-four)

"R+L=J v.45" (thread forty-five)

"R+L=J v.46" (thread forty-six)

"R+L=J v.47" (thread forty-seven)

"R+L=J v.48" (thread forty-eight)

"R+L=J v.49" (thread forty-nine)

"R+L=J v.50" (thread fifty)

"R+L=J v.51" (thread fifty-one)

"R+L=J v.52" (thread fifty-two)

"R+L=J v.53" (thread fifty-three)

"R+L=J v.54" (thread fifty-four)

"R+L=J v.55" (thread fifty-five)

"R+L=J v.56" (thread fifty-six)

"R+L=J v.57" (thread fifty-seven)

"R+L=J v.58" (thread fifty-eight)

"R+L=J v.59" (thread fifty-nine)

"R+L=J v.60" (thread sixty)

"R+L=J v.61" (thread sixty-one)

"R+L=J v.62" (thread sixty-two)

"R+L=J v.63" (thread sixty-three)

"R+L=J v.64" (thread sixty-four)

"R+L=J v.65" (thread sixty-five)

"R+L=J v.66" (thread sixty-six)

"R+L=J v.67" (thread sixty-seven)

"R+L=J v.68" (thread sixty-eight)

"R+L=J v.69" (thread sixty-nine)

"R+L=J v.70" (thread seventy)
"R+L=J v.71" (thread seventy-one)

"R+L=J v.72" (thread seventy-two)

"R+L=J v.73" (thread seventy-three)

"R+L=J v.74" (thread seventy-four)

"R+L=J v.75" (thread seventy-five)

"R+L=J v.76" (thread seventy-six)

"R+L=J v.77" (thread seventy-seven)

"R+L=J v.78" (thread seventy-eight)

"R+L=J v.79" (thread seventy-nine)

"R+L=J v.80" (thread eighty)

"R+L=J v.81" (thread eighty-one)

"R+L=J v.82" (thread eighty-two)

"R+L=J v.83" (thread eighty-three)

"R+L=J v.84" (thread eighty-four)

"R+L=J v.85" (thread eighty-five)

"R+L=J v.86" (thread eighty-six)

"R+L=J v.87" (thread eighty-seven)

"R+L=J v.88" (thread eighty-eight)

"R+L=J v.89" (thread eighty-nine)

"R+L=J v.90" (thread ninety)

"R+L=J v.91" (thread ninety-one)

"R+L=J v.92" (thread ninety-two)

"R+L=J v.93" (thread ninety-three)

"R+L=J v.94" (thread ninety-four)

"R+L=J v.95" (thread ninety-five)

"R+L=J v.96" (thread ninety-six)

"R+L=J v. 97" (thread ninety-seven)

"R+L=J v. 98" (thread ninety-eight)

"R+L=J v. 99" (thread ninety-nine)

"R+L =J v.100" (thread one hundred)

"R+L =J v.101" (thread one hundred one)

"R+L =J v.102" (thread one hundred two)

"R+L =J v.103" (thread one hundred three)

"R+L=J v.104" (thread one hundred four)

"R+L=J v.105" (thread one hundred five)

"R+L=J v.106" (thread one hundred six)

"R+L=J v.107" (thread one hundred seven)

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New shiny!



Going back to what addicted to snow was saying: even if Jon never finds out who his parents are (unlikely), it doesn't change the fact that his blood is a mix of "fire" and "ice." He isn't just a northman like the other Starks (Bran). He is the balance of those two elements. I think that excludes him from ever being the NK.



I suspect that's why Rhaegar was trying to do with TPTWP.; you need that balance so that TPTWP can do whatever it is he is supposed to do.


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New shiny thread, therefore the perfect place to drop this in:



The current round of Acrophobia #10 (here) is based on the idea that you have read all the books and know the facts laid out in them. You are standing next to a book character in the beginning of AGOT. What prophecy, advice would you give them? As I was making out my acronym entries for Cersei (on the road north to WF, Robert has gone off hunting and she stands by her wheelhouse watching him go. You tell her something - using the letters, dlerohc - in that order.).



Thinking of that royal journey north and what flowed from it it made me reflect again on how that journey south had been disastrous for the North. As symbolically gutting to the North as Ned's beheading or the murders of Brandon & Rickard was the melting down of the great sword Ice to make two Lannister swords.



As there are often echoes within ASOAIF between events, it made me wonder if there was some congruence between the melting down of Ice and the death of Lyanna? In short, is there any chance that she had twins?


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As there are often echoes within ASOAIF between events, it made me wonder if there was some congruence between the melting down of Ice and the death of Lyanna? In short, is there any chance that she had twins?

If Lyanna had twins, my first question would be: why didn't Ned bring both babies home then? My second question would be: where's the other baby?

In short, I don't think Lyanna had twins.

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New shiny thread, therefore the perfect place to drop this in:

The current round of Acrophobia #10 (here) is based on the idea that you have read all the books and know the facts laid out in them. You are standing next to a book character in the beginning of AGOT. What prophecy, advice would you give them? As I was making out my acronym entries for Cersei (on the road north to WF, Robert has gone off hunting and she stands by her wheelhouse watching him go. You tell her something - using the letters, dlerohc - in that order.).

Thinking of that royal journey north and what flowed from it it made me reflect again on how that journey south had been disastrous for the North. As symbolically gutting to the North as Ned's beheading or the murders of Brandon & Rickard was the melting down of the great sword Ice to make two Lannister swords.

As there are often echoes within ASOAIF between events, it made me wonder if there was some congruence between the melting down of Ice and the death of Lyanna? In short, is there any chance that she had twins?

I've always wondered that too. Dont get me wrong, even strapping Brienne could die in childbirth, but if Lyanna was tKotLT, it emphasizes her health.

Complications birthing twins could be quite messy.

I have always been suspicious of Wylla Manderly and her dying her blond hair.

She also has the blonde brows in contrast to the green dye.

O think shes also of an age.

She is also in a family that owes the Starks their lives.

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I've always wondered that too. Dont get me wrong, even strapping Brienne could die in childbirth, but if Lyanna was tKotLT, it emphasizes her health.

Complications birthing twins could be quite messy.

I have always been suspicious of Wylla Manderly and her dying her blond hair.

She also has the blonde brows in contrast to the green dye.

O think shes also of an age.

She is also in a family that owes the Starks their lives.

Are you suggesting that Wylla Manderly might be a hidden twin to Jon?

to BearQueen:

Yes, I totally agree with you. There's nothing in the text to suggest it, just the vague idea of echoes and foreshadowing (although I guess Ice getting melted down would be the opposite of foreshadowing).

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New shiny!

Going back to what addicted to snow was saying: even if Jon never finds out who his parents are (unlikely), it doesn't change the fact that his blood is a mix of "fire" and "ice." He isn't just a northman like the other Starks (Bran). He is the balance of those two elements. I think that excludes him from ever being the NK.

I suspect that's why Rhaegar was trying to do with TPTWP.; you need that balance so that TPTWP can do whatever it is he is supposed to do.

While, of course, I agree with these point, I would also like to make sure we all remember that GRRM has publicly stated that Jon will find out the truth about his parentage. So not only is it unlikely that Jon won't find out--it would mean that GRRM is a "straight-up liar"--which I really don't think he is. He gets cagey with his statements, but when he makes an unambiguous pronouncement, I think it can be relied upon. And the mystery of R+L=J has not built up since the first book just to have Jon's fire side become "irrelevant" because Ned did not tell Jon about it from his young childhood. The revelation will matter--this is "A Song of Ice and Fire"--not "A Song of Ice and Would have also been about Fire if only Ned had mentioned it sooner". ;)

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Are you suggesting that Wylla Manderly might be a hidden twin to Jon?

to BearQueen:

Yes, I totally agree with you. There's nothing in the text to suggest it, just the vague idea of echoes and foreshadowing (although I guess Ice getting melted down would be the opposite of foreshadowing).

Yes, because unless she is a "Hot Topic" girl and "expressing" herself, why is she dying her hair?

It just seems out of place.

We also see that most of the characters who are dying their hair do so for a purpose~ to hide their hair, especially if they're Targaryen.

I'd throw Varys and his shaving his head into that pot.

There is also her passionate speech about the Starks which suggests she has been well versed on the history of the Starks.

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Yes, because unless she is a "Hot Topic" girl and "expressing" herself, why is she dying her hair?

It just seems out of place.

We also see that most of the characters who are dying their hair do so for a purpose~ to hide their hair, especially if they're Targaryen.

I'd throw Varys and his shaving his head into that pot.

There is also her passionate speech about the Starks which suggests she has been well versed on the history of the Starks.

First LOL at Hot Topic Girl.

I don't know why Wylla is coloring her hair. But she could be there for the same purpose as the Fisherman's Wife--to throw us all off. Somebody, roughly the same age as Jon and fAegon? Must be a secret Targ!

Mostly, I don't know why Ned would leave one child with another family while taking Jon to WF.

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Yes, because unless she is a "Hot Topic" girl and "expressing" herself, why is she dying her hair?

It just seems out of place.

We also see that most of the characters who are dying their hair do so for a purpose~ to hide their hair, especially if they're Targaryen.

I'd throw Varys and his shaving his head into that pot.

There is also her passionate speech about the Starks which suggests she has been well versed on the history of the Starks.

Yes, I always liked her and I believe that there's great significance in that scene.

But is she old enough to be Jon's twin? And why would Ned leave her with Manderly? What other explanation might there be for her and her love of the Starks?

eta

Love the illustration of her on that Wiki page. Hilarious.

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First LOL at Hot Topic Girl.

I don't know why Wylla is coloring her hair. But she could be there for the same purpose as the Fisherman's Wife--to throw us all off. Somebody, roughly the same age as Jon and fAegon? Must be a secret Targ!

Mostly, I don't know why Ned would leave one child with another family while taking Jon to WF.

On the one hand I think the simplest explanation is the best one.

On the other hand, if Jon had a twin who had the Targaryen looks Ned could hardly bring her home and claim her as his own could he?

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First LOL at Hot Topic Girl.

I don't know why Wylla is coloring her hair. But she could be there for the same purpose as the Fisherman's Wife--to throw us all off. Somebody, roughly the same age as Jon and fAegon? Must be a secret Targ!

Mostly, I don't know why Ned would leave one child with another family while taking Jon to WF.

If she looks like a Targaryen, she would be safer in a family where such traits would not stand out as much, and one Ned knew was indebted to the Starks.

She also has the same name as the wetnurse.

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If she looks like a Targaryen, she would be safer in a family where such traits would not stand out as much, and one Ned knew was indebted to the Starks.

She also has the same name as the wetnurse.

But outside of dyed hair (which could mean secret identity) and being named Wylla (but it seems like most of the Manderly's have "W" names) Ned doesn't seem to think about the Manderly's or this Wylla at all, whereas we have evidence that links Jon with Lyanna and Rhaegar and promises.

On the other hand, if Jon had a twin who had the Targaryen looks Ned could hardly bring her home and claim her as his own could he?

The blonde hair would be hard to explain, yes--but it's blonde, not silver. Do we know what color eyes Wylla has? Because if they are purple, Ned can pass her off as Ashara's daughter.

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In response to a number of comments on the previous thread:



Yes, I think that R+L=J...



But Jon Snow, the character, is defined by being nothing more than a Northern Bastard... He, as a character, is about to become separated from the body that was made by R+L=J, and I do not believe that he will ever be reunited. Though I understand that most board participants refuse to even consider this as a possible outcome - but that hardly makes it less likely.



Jon Snow becomes the Night's King, leading the Others against the realms of men (though it is likely to be a bit more complex).



AAR will be reborn into Jon's body & will fully exploit the fact that R+L=J...

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In response to a number of comments on the previous thread:

Yes, I think that R+L=J...

But Jon Snow, the character, is defined by being nothing more than a Northern Bastard... He, as a character, is about to become separated from the body that was made by R+L=J, and I do not believe that he will ever be reunited. Though I understand that most board participants refuse to even consider this as a possible outcome - but that hardly makes it less likely.

Jon Snow becomes the Night's King, leading the Others against the realms of men (though it is likely to be a bit more complex).

AAR will be reborn into Jon's body & will fully exploit the fact that R+L=J...

Jon is defined as nothing more than a Northern Bastard because that's all he thinks he is, but we "know" that is more than that. Jon is, in reality, much more than a Northern Bastard.

I do think he's about to be separated from his body, but I think he will return to his body. We've had this discussion before though, so I won't dwell.

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In response to a number of comments on the previous thread:

Yes, I think that R+L=J...

But Jon Snow, the character, is defined by being nothing more than a Northern Bastard... He, as a character, is about to become separated from the body that was made by R+L=J, and I do not believe that he will ever be reunited. Though I understand that most board participants refuse to even consider this as a possible outcome - but that hardly makes it less likely.

Jon Snow becomes the Night's King, leading the Others against the realms of men (though it is likely to be a bit more complex).

AAR will be reborn into Jon's body & will fully exploit the fact that R+L=J...

That's an interesting theory - and Ghost would no doubt be the vehicle to get Jon over to the Others. Would certainly make the title even more fitting than it already is.

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That's an interesting theory - and Ghost would no doubt be the vehicle to get Jon over to the Others. Would certainly make the title even more fitting than it already is.

Probably a combination of Ghost & eventually Hodor... Mel saw Jon as a Man, Wolf, then a Man again... So Jon will probably have to retake human form again. I think he'll do so in Hodor, as opposed to his old body.

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In response to a number of comments on the previous thread:

Yes, I think that R+L=J...

But Jon Snow, the character, is defined by being nothing more than a Northern Bastard... He, as a character, is about to become separated from the body that was made by R+L=J, and I do not believe that he will ever be reunited. Though I understand that most board participants refuse to even consider this as a possible outcome - but that hardly makes it less likely.

Jon Snow becomes the Night's King, leading the Others against the realms of men (though it is likely to be a bit more complex).

AAR will be reborn into Jon's body & will fully exploit the fact that R+L=J...

We have multiple instances of resurrection. The books show that wargs can live on in another being. We have nothing, as far as I know, tying Jon to the Night's King. I would say that certainly makes it less likely...

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