R+L=J v.108

[Rhaegal Targaryen]

sj4iy did a preety good job at providing quotes for R+L=J but i will post some of them as well.

"I know," Jon said. He rose. Standing, he was taller than the dwarf. It made him feel strange.

He favored Jon with a rueful grin. " Remember this, boy. All dwarfs may be bastards, yet not all bastards need be dwarfs."

And with that he turned and sauntered back into the feast, whistling a tune. When he opened the door, the light from within threw his shadow clear a cross the yard, and for just a moment Tyrion Lannister stood tall as a king.

“That’s the real king of this castle right there, older than sin and twice as mean... One time the king was feasting the queen’s father, and that black bastard hopped up on the table and snatched a roast quail right out of Lord Tywin’s fingers. Robert laughed so hard he was like to burst. You stay away from that one, child.”

The cat is Rhaenys's kitten, Balerion. The cat is called the "black bastard" which could be used to describe Jon as he is a member of the NW. It is also described as "the real king of this castle"

The next time I see you, you'll be all in BLACK."
Jon forced himself to smile back. "It was always my color"

I am not a wolf, he thought. =Of course you are not Jon.

"I have no sister."=Jon has no surving siblings.

King," croaked the raven. The bird flapped across the solar to land on Mormont's shoulder. "King," IT said again, strutting back and forth.

"He likes that word," Jon said, smiling.

"An easy word to say. An easy word to like."

"King," the bird said again.

"I think he means for you to have a crown, my lord."

"The realm has three kings already, and that's two too many for my liking." Mormont stroked the raven under the beak with a finger, but all the while his eyes never left Jon Snow.

Would you sooner have a father or a chair, lad? Jaime wished he knew the answer.

Jaime thinking about Tommen but this so true about Jon as well.

ASOS; Jaime

He saw them too. They were armored all in snow, it seemed to him, and ribbons of mist swirled back from their shoulders. The visors of their helms were closed, but Jaime Lannister did not need to look upon their faces to know them.

Beneath the empty eyes of the skulls on the walls, Jaime hauled the last dragonking bodily off the steps, squealing like a pig and smelling like a privy.

I am bleeding like a butchered pig, he [Jon] thought,Jaime didn't kill the last one as it seems.

Greatjon Umber:
Why shouldn't we rule ourselves again? It was the dragons we married, and the dragons are all dead!

After Jon kills the wight with fire:
Whatever demonic force moved Othor had been driven out by the flames; the twisted thing they had found in the ashes had been no more than cooked meat and charred bone.

Dany's Undying Chapter:
“Let him be king over charred bones and cooked meat,” he said to a man below him. “Let him be the king of ashes.”

Ser Jaime Lannister was twin to Queen Cersei; tall and golden, with flashing green eyes and a smile that cut like a knife. He wore crimson silk, high black boots, a black satin cloak. On the breast of his tunic, the lion of his House was embroidered in gold thread, roaring its defiance. They called him the Lion of Lannister to his face and whispered "Kingslayer" behind his back.

[UVA]

At the risk of further revealing my nerdiness, I sometimes check out Martin's Not a Blog, and an interesting tid bit emerged from a response he posted yesterday to a fan asking him if he'd read the new Batman storylines. He said no and, "I don't know that I ever will. I am a continuity purist, and I have never liked reboots and retcons."

This seems like yet another indication that Martin isn't going to alter R+L=J because of the theory's widespread acceptance among the fandom and beyond

[sj4iy]

At the risk of further revealing my nerdiness, I sometimes check out Martin's Not a Blog, and an interesting tid bit emerged from a response he posted yesterday to a fan asking him if he'd read the new Batman storylines. He said no and, "I don't know that I ever will. I am a continuity purist, and I have never liked reboots and retcons."

This seems like yet another indication that Martin isn't going to alter R+L=J because of the theory's widespread acceptance among the fandom and beyond

Nice. Honestly, I don't think that Martin could change it even if he wanted to at this point because he's painted himself into a corner now. When you look at just how much evidence for it he put in the first book alone, there doesn't seem to be any way he could come up with an equally plausible or sensible solution anymore. He has to see it through to the end. Of course, had he stayed on the same writing schedule as the first three books, he would have finished the series before the show came out, and it wouldn't have become an issue of trying to beat the clock.

[UVA]

[snip]

I completely agree. I think one of, it not, the weakest arguments against RLJ is that because the surprise is allegedly spoiled, Martin is going to re-write the story as if to prove some "gotcha" point to readers. This stance also undermines what perhaps is the scaffolding to the entire story. Martin's built a very beautiful case-- subtle, as many readers don't see it at first, but also a strong one, such that once you know what to look for, the clues are multiple and persuasively woven. There are endless hints, both through subtle dialogue, basic logic, and carefully woven symbolism that tie together Lyanna, Rhaegar, Jon, supported by the reality of Ned's character and resultant shame. RLJ is an extremely well-crafted development in the plot of ASOIAF; it's a lietmotif, yet still mysterious enough to be interesting. I mean, the why and how of it all IS the mystery that has not be solved.

An argument in literature is as much about themes, symbols and imagery as it is about logical deduction and seeking additional possibilities. The fact that Jon's arc is made more authentic by R+L (symbolically, analytically), that Ned's actions make sense only if Jon is R&L's son, the fact that there is no other character we've been introduced to who could be from this union and add meaning to the story as the product of this union speaks more to the impossibility of the alternate theories that Martin could conjure up now, imo.

[Han Snow]

But which birth?

Literal? Or transformative such as a rebirth?

There are clues in both.

I'm more inclined to believe that the signs happened at his literal birth... and if they didn't, they will when the transformative rebirth actually happens, which it hasn't as of ADWD. I don't buy the far fetched clues found in Jon's last ASWD chapter.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

At the risk of further revealing my nerdiness, I sometimes check out Martin's Not a Blog, and an interesting tid bit emerged from a response he posted yesterday to a fan asking him if he'd read the new Batman storylines. He said no and, "I don't know that I ever will. I am a continuity purist, and I have never liked reboots and retcons."

OT but now I'll forgive him the wait for Wings.

I don't like reboots or retcons either.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

OT but now I'll forgive him the wait for Wings.

I don't like reboots or retcons either.

Wings? :P

Omg, I just realised I can follow the adventure of JonCon in your signature link! And I missed one O_o..

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Wings? :P

Omg, I just realised I can follow the adventure of JonCon in your signature link! And I missed one O_o..

Winds, damn... winds. I'm sick, k? :(

And yes.. :P

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Winds, damn... winds. I'm sick, k? :(

And yes.. :P

Get well soon! :)

[BearQueen87]

OT but now I'll forgive him the wait for Wings.

I don't like reboots or retcons either.

Your avatar might be the single greatest thing I've ever seen.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Your avatar might be the single greatest thing I've ever seen.

It's an avatar full of love and proLGTB feelings. Kinda.

[ser jamie the enigmatic]

This would have been well after Rickard and Brandon were killed, though.

But I always got the impression they were killed after lyanna disappears with rhaegar... I mean it would make sense as it would be a reason for aerys to summon rickard and Brandon to pledge their fealty so as to make sure they wasn't thinking of rebelling

[sj4iy]

But I always got the impression they were killed after lyanna disappears with rhaegar... I mean it would make sense as it would be a reason for aerys to summon rickard and Brandon to pledge their fealty so as to make sure they wasn't thinking of rebelling

They were. I thought this was talking about Hightower being sent by Aerys to force Rhaegar to come back to KL by holding Lyanna hostage. Excuse me if I misunderstood.

[ser jamie the enigmatic]

They were. I thought this was talking about Hightower being sent by Aerys to force Rhaegar to come back to KL by holding Lyanna hostage. Excuse me if I misunderstood.

No worries I hadn't even added Hightower bringing rhaegar back to kl in to the equation it just seems stupid to keep a daughter hostage when he could of had rickards heir as hostage and instead kills them both

[sj4iy]

No worries I hadn't even added Hightower bringing rhaegar back to kl in to the equation it just seems stupid to keep a daughter hostage when he could of had rickards heir as hostage and instead kills them both

Oh, it was definitely stupid of Aerys to do such a thing. But he was crazy, and crazy people aren't exactly known for their sound decision-making XD

[Alia of the knife]

At the risk of further revealing my nerdiness, I sometimes check out Martin's Not a Blog, and an interesting tid bit emerged from a response he posted yesterday to a fan asking him if he'd read the new Batman storylines. He said no and, "I don't know that I ever will. I am a continuity purist, and I have never liked reboots and retcons."

This seems like yet another indication that Martin isn't going to alter R+L=J because of the theory's widespread acceptance among the fandom and beyond

Totally agree with him.

And I think that given he is the ultimate fanboy himself, he would be particular about such things.

[Disputatious]

But which birth?

Literal? Or transformative such as a rebirth?

There are clues in both.

In Dany's case both: the salt of the sea surrounding Dragonstone and the smoke of the not so dormant volcano Dragonmont for her actual birth, and then the salt in her perspiration and the smoke of Drogo's funeral pyre, under the bleeding star, for her "rebirth". (She is covered in sweat as she walks into the pyre and, once her clothes burn off, as naked as at her actual birth. Oh, and also hairless as a babe.)

[Disputatious]

But which birth?

Literal? Or transformative such as a rebirth?

There are clues in both.

In Dany's case both: the salt of the sea surrounding Dragonstone and the smoke of the not so dormant volcano Dragonmont for her actual birth, and then the salt in her perspiration and the smoke of Drogo's funeral pyre, under the bleeding star, for her "rebirth". (She is covered in sweat as she walks into the pyre and, once her clothes burn off, as naked as at her actual birth. Oh, and also hairless as a babe.)