Ser Yolo Swaggins Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 You're posting in the 108th thread for R+L=J. Aside from you telling me I'm incorrect and that there is foreshadowing, you have literally presented nothing besides your own insistence. Meanwhile, we've collectively brought up multiple times the resurrection of other characters, what we've learned about warging from other wargs, and our interpretation of Mel's visions, which are undoubtedly based on the text. Then we've brought up the logical follow through from a story-telling standpoint, from which we've logically gone from the above to Jon coming back, changed from before, but still essentially the same person absent that change. Meanwhile, you say "nuh uh, I'm right and you guys are just dumb. You don't get it." You don't try and tell us why we're wrong. You don't try and tell us how you're arriving at your conclusion. You haven't done anything besides being a contrarian troll. :agree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 Like I said in a previous post (that you failed to understand)... sj4jy & his/her little friends think that GRRM is going to have Jon be reunited with his body & save the realm!!! I am smart enough to know that this is not a possibility... That's as simple as it gets... The only way that people could ever think that GRRM is going to have Jon be reunited with his body & save the realm!!! is if they:Didn't read the booksDidn't understand the booksor they could be incredibly slow I suppose The troll is strong with this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 I almost miss talking about the Tower of Joy... ALMOST. Speaking of: Kingmonkey! How is your essay coming? I haven't missed it right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 That's great, but a 14 year old girl could not use the same length lances as grown men & she would be knocked off her horse before she even got within the range of her lance... "Jessica Post, 24, of Radnor in Delaware County, is one of the newest and youngest competitors in the field of full-contact, competitive jousting, which is gaining new popularity in America as an extreme sport. The riders collide at almost 25mph atop highly trained horses, each knight seeking to score a solid strike against their opponent, or better yet to throw them from their steed. Post, who does not shy away from a charging opponent, is turning heads in the sport not only for her rarity as a female jouster, but for her skill as well. She took seventh place overall at an international competition this year. And folks here in Harveysburg still are talking about how she unhorsed an opponent at an earlier competition during the first weekend of the festival in September. The soft-spoken Post said she wouldn't do it if it weren't fun. But she acknowledged that you would have to be a little crazy to ride full tilt at someone who is trying to knock you off a horse with a stick while wearing 140pounds of steel armor." - Columbia Dispatch. Granted, she is also six foot one, however, she is one of five females involved in the sport, and the rest are not over six feet tall. And physics often deal with why of things as much as the how, and not all of it deals with brute strength. Eastern Martinal Arts are a good example of that, as well as other traditions that looked straight to nature for their inspiration, i.e., native americans who never experienced physical punches until encountering Europeans. This is a primary reason why women are taught martial arts as self defense, a nod to this in the tactics of water dancing that Arya is learning, and why Syrio had her chase cats as much of it relies on agility and speed. Even Illryio when he was young water dancer was more lithe in build than someone like Robert, but just as deadly The physics of female strength also places her center of gravity lower due to the evolution of hips and lower back to contain the impact of carrying a child sometimes while foraging for food and on the run. The hips, lower back and legs, (where a womans strengths are concentrated) would aid her in actually staying on a horse. Men topple more easily because their center of gravity is in the sternum, concentrated in upper body strength. I think there was also speculation that Northern fighters fought differently than Southern fighters given there is no tradition of knighthood in the north, the nature of their enemies amongst the mountain clans and wildlings. And the costume designer for GOT actually said she modeled the mens northern costumes after the Samarai tradtional dress, which might also allude to different fighting techniques. I believe even Jorah dressed similarly. Though I will grant that Briennes fight with the Hound was unlikely. While she might have been able to take an average man, or an older Jaime, she would not have been able to take on monsters such as the Hound or the Mountain so easily. Even the RV relied on speed and trickery. This is where a rocket launcher would have come in handy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 It is much easier to tell what is not going to happen, then it is to tell what is going to happen... As you might have guessed GRRM has designed these stories to be unpredictable... So when a large portion of the readership has expectations built up to see Jon Snow save the world (or see Khal Drogo place Dany on the Iron Thrown, etc, etc) logic & basic reasoning tell me that Jon will probably not be saving the world. If GRRM left a significant amount of heavy foreshadowing about where his story was going, then it would be too predictable & no surprise... So people are asking me for proof & evidence of where I think the story is going, but it seems to me that once I have outlined it, that interested parties should be able to piece it all together... Tons of foreshadowing going back to AGOTs places Jon's Body in the Ice Cells for a prolonged period of time... In the meantime tons of foreshadowing also suggest that Jon will be headed North to look for his uncle (this foreshadowing also goes back to AGOTs, but is also heavy in ADWDs)... So, is Jon going to be in Ghost this entire time? or will he find another human body? I think he will find another human body. Things will go downhill from there... I don't understand why my ideas should be held to higher standards than others ideas... No, I can't provide evidence that Jon will use Hodor's body, but no one here can provide evidence that he will reuse his own body either... All we know is that Mel saw him as a Man again, she did say a specific man... Questions/answers:Has GRRM designed the Character, Hodor, from day one just so that Bran can go spelunking in a cave North of the Wall? Common sense says 'probably not'... Is this character placed in a location where he can interact with Ghost/Jon? Yes, he is beyond the wall & Ghost/Jon are headed beyond the wall... Does Jon have any special gifts that would allow him to interact with Hodor? Yes, he is a Warg... Why did GRRM go to such length to explain that it is easy to warg a creature who has already been broken-in by another Warg? Common sense says because we will see such an interaction take place - probably between Jon & Hodor... But wait, How will Jon Warg Hodor while Jon is living in his 2nd life? Well, we do not know that Jon's body will remain dead, many resurrections have taken place so far. Jon may yet get another go at his 1st life...especially if his revived body is thrown into the ice cells (the magic of the wall blocks all warg-related communications, thus preventing Jon from reassessing his body). --So no proof, no more than anyone else can offer for their ideas, but the above reasoning shows that GRRM has definitely left the door open for Jon to exist in Hodor for a while, or for the rest of the series... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 It is much easier to tell what is not going to happen, then it is to tell what is going to happen... As you might have guessed GRRM has designed these stories to be unpredictable... So, it's unpredictable, yet it's easy to predict what won't happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 "Jessica Post, 24, of Radnor in Delaware County, is one of the newest and youngest competitors in the field of full-contact, competitive jousting, which is gaining new popularity in America as an extreme sport. The riders collide at almost 25mph atop highly trained horses, each knight seeking to score a solid strike against their opponent, or better yet to throw them from their steed. Post, who does not shy away from a charging opponent, is turning heads in the sport not only for her rarity as a female jouster, but for her skill as well. She took seventh place overall at an international competition this year. And folks here in Harveysburg still are talking about how she unhorsed an opponent at an earlier competition during the first weekend of the festival in September. The soft-spoken Post said she wouldn't do it if it weren't fun. But she acknowledged that you would have to be a little crazy to ride full tilt at someone who is trying to knock you off a horse with a stick while wearing 140pounds of steel armor." - Columbia Dispatch. Granted, she is also six foot one, however, she is one of five females involved in the sport, and the rest are not over six feet tall. And physics often deal with why of things as much as the how, and not all of it deals with brute strength. Eastern Martinal Arts are a good example of that, as well as other traditions that looked straight to nature for their inspiration, i.e., native americans who never experienced physical punches until encountering Europeans. This is a primary reason why women are taught martial arts as self defense, a nod to this in the tactics of water dancing that Arya is learning, and why Syrio had her chase cats as much of it relies on agility and speed. Even Illryio when he was young water dancer was more lithe in build than someone like Robert, but just as deadly The physics of female strength also places her center of gravity lower due to the evolution of hips and lower back to contain the impact of carrying a child sometimes while foraging for food and on the run. The hips, lower back and legs, (where a womans strengths are concentrated) would aid her in actually staying on a horse. Men topple more easily because their center of gravity is in the sternum, concentrated in upper body strength. I think there was also speculation that Northern fighters fought differently than Southern fighters given there is no tradition of knighthood in the north, the nature of their enemies amongst the mountain clans and wildlings. And the costume designer for GOT actually said she modeled the mens northern costumes after the Samarai tradtional dress, which might also allude to different fighting techniques. I believe even Jorah dressed similarly. Though I will grant that Briennes fight with the Hound was unlikely. While she might have been able to take an average man, or an older Jaime, she would not have been able to take on monsters such as the Hound or the Mountain so easily. Even the RV relied on speed and trickery. This is where a rocket launcher would have come in handy. If I'm not mistaken, these modern jousters use a modern lance as well, one that is lightweight & held differently... All my thoughts regarding a 14 yr old girl facing a grown man would be accurate in the real world because the adult male would be able to carry a longer lance. However, as someone pointed out, GRRM has Sir Loras beating grown men at the age of 16, which means that in GRRM-land it is possible for a 14 year old girl to be the Kotlt, though I still maintain that this would be poor writing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 So, it's unpredictable, yet it's easy to predict what won't happen. you read that correct! way to go!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 So, it's unpredictable, yet it's easy to predict what won't happen. *does not compute* If I'm not mistaken, these modern jousters use a modern lance as well, one that is lightweight & held differently... All my thoughts regarding a 14 yr old girl facing a grown man would be accurate in the real world because the adult male would be able to carry a longer lance. However, as someone pointed out, GRRM has Sir Loras beating grown men at the age of 16, which means that in GRRM-land it is possible for a 14 year old girl to be the Kotlt, though I still maintain that this would be poor writing... Well that's your opinion and you're welcome to it. But, Lyanna as the KOLT makes a lot of sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonSnow4President Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 It is much easier to tell what is not going to happen, then it is to tell what is going to happen... I disagree with a large part of that. It took a significant amount of travel time post-wall to get to the cave of skulls. Jon is a warg, but weaker than Varamyr, who failed to warg a human. I wouldn't say GRRM went "to great length" to describe how it was easier to warg a "broken in" creature, as I don't remember it at all, which suggests it wasn't "to great length." I wouldn't say there is "tons" of foreshadowing for Jon spending an extended period of time in the ice cells. I think it is absurd to believe Jon will have to find another human body instead of being able to return to his own. With that said, thank you for finally saying something about the why behind your beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 you read that correct! way to go!!! You obviously didn't. Because if you had, you would know that it makes no sense at all to say that Martin can be unpredictable and predictable at the same time. If you build your case that Jon can't be a hero on Martin being unpredictable, then you can't possibly predict what Martin has in store. If you think Martin has foreshadowed Jon becoming a villain, then that's not being 'unpredictable' at all. But if you do so, then you can't simultaneously argue that the "Jon is a hero" theory is being too predictable when you've built your own theory on the same criteria of foreshadowing and evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 I disagree with a large part of that. It took a significant amount of travel time post-wall to get to the cave of skulls. Jon is a warg, but weaker than Varamyr, who failed to warg a human. I wouldn't say GRRM went "to great length" to describe how it was easier to warg a "broken in" creature, as I don't remember it at all, which suggests it wasn't "to great length." I wouldn't say there is "tons" of foreshadowing for Jon spending an extended period of time in the ice cells. I think it is absurd to believe Jon will have to find another human body instead of being able to return to his own. With that said, thank you for finally saying something about the why behind your beliefs. See the Bran Chapter in ADWDs where he is learning to skin change ravens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 *does not compute* Well that's your opinion and you're welcome to it. But, Lyanna as the KOLT makes a lot of sense. She must have had incredibly huge arms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 She must have had incredibly huge arms. Rhaegar doesn't seem to have minded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meemaw Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 addictedtosnow you may not have noticed but when it comes to the Starks GRRM has moments of great strengh for some of them. Robb hefted a elk by himself onto a horse. Jon is able to grab a pole up out of frozen ground that 4 others struggled with. Arya snapped a broom stick over her knee and hefts dead bodys around. A normal 14 year old girl may have trouble but she is a Stark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 addictedtosnow you may not have noticed but when it comes to the Starks GRRM has moments of great strengh for some of them. Robb hefted a elk by himself onto a horse. Jon is able to grab a pole up out of frozen ground that 4 others struggled with. Arya snapped a broom stick over her knee and hefts dead bodys around. A normal 14 year old girl may have trouble but she is a Stark. Interesting... I did not notice that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sword of Nightfall Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 OT: Love this cross of fandoms! http://toxioneer.deviantart.com/art/Game-of-Zaeed-Mass-Effect-3-469854158 :agree: fantastic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 Rhaegar doesn't seem to have minded. He likes strong hugs ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingmonkey Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 If I'm not mistaken, these modern jousters use a modern lance as well, one that is lightweight & held differently... All my thoughts regarding a 14 yr old girl facing a grown man would be accurate in the real world because the adult male would be able to carry a longer lance. However, as someone pointed out, GRRM has Sir Loras beating grown men at the age of 16, which means that in GRRM-land it is possible for a 14 year old girl to be the Kotlt, though I still maintain that this would be poor writing... Medieval jousting lances weren't that heavy (2-4kg), and were weighted at the back to make it easier to move the tip. We don't really know about jousting in Westeros (it changed a lot over the years on our planet) but they may very well have been using a butt or hook for the lance , which spreads the impact of your lance through the breastplate rather than putting it all on your arm and relying on main strength. The force of the blow is far more about the speed (and weight) of the horse than it is about the rider, and avoiding your opponent's lance tip (or allowing it to strike at a point where most of the force will be redirected and the lance tip slide off) while making your own contact as clean as possible is more important than your own strength or weight. It's also quite possible that there would be a tournament standard for lance length. Soooo.... it's possible. Keep in mind that the alternative to the KotLT being Lyanna is that the KotLT was someone else who was also notably small, and therefore would be at least similarly disadvantaged. However if they were very skilled, they might be able to compensate for that disadvantage against some not particularly noted jousters. I actually agree with you that something doesn't quite ring true with Lyanna winning at the lists (and then having a booming voice), but it's not something you can write off as an impossibility, just a stretch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingmonkey Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 Speaking of: Kingmonkey! How is your essay coming? I haven't missed it right? Done. I just need to get around to putting together a TL;DR version (it's looong!) and posting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.