Daily Facts of Ice and Fire

[Free Northman Reborn]

Free Northman Reborn,

Your theory is perfectly possible, but I imagine that House Bolton's power may have stretched to the south far enough to reach the Sistermen themselves. House Bolton was a royal house that fought the Starks for the dominion of the North, and could easily have dominated the eastern half of the subcontinent at some time.

We know that they owned the Karstark lands, and likely also the Hornwood region (they are very close, and that would give an excuse for Ramsay to incorporate them). It's easy to speculate that they reached much to the south: Widow's Watch is ruled by Flints, and White Harbor by Greystarks/Manderly, all of them Stark bannermen not original to the region that likely have been installed by the Starks to reward them after defeating the former lords, as they did with the Karstarks.

Just a thought.

No, we don't know that the Boltons owned the Karstark lands. We just know that the Karstark lands were taken from a defeated rebel lord. That could have been any lord. There is no evidence whatsoever that it belonged to the Boltons.

And we further know that Jon Stark built the Wolf's Den 4000 years ago or more, at a time when there was no settlement there. So it is highly unlikely that the Bolton rule ever stretched that far South.

In truth, the Boltons were just one of a bunch of First Men petty kings that existed in the North in ancient times. Most likely along with the Umber Kings, the Hornwood Kings, the Dustin, Ryswell, Flint and Marsh Kings.

This idea that the Boltons ruled large parts of the North at some point is totally unfounded. They were simply particularly unruly and reluctant vassals of the Starks. Not powerful rivals that ruled half the Northern continent, like some people like to fantasize. At least, there is zero evidence for the latter scenario.

[Lord Varys]

Just wait and see. There were petty kings and petty kings, and not all of them were petty.

For instance, it is already clear that the Yronwoods of Yronwood were the most powerful house in Dorne prior to the coming of the Rhoynar, are we not?

True, the Starks eventually subdued the whole North, but this does not have to mean that they always were the most powerful house in the North.

There are hints what may have been caused Stark supremacy in the years after the Long Night.

We have 'the Kings of Winter', the hot pools at Winterfell, and the Winter Town. Originally, the Starks may have been 'the kings you go to when winter reigns'. The assumption that the title 'the Kings of Winter' is supposed to mean that the Starks actually rule or command the forces of winter makes little sense.

From such an honored position the Starks could have started their spring conquests, eventually ruling over the whole North. But this does not have to mean that the Starks are the oldest or the most powerful royal house in the North. That should (or could) be House Dustin.

[The Wolves]

^Why House Dustin?

I would say the Mountain Clans of Skagos being the oldest because their culture or way of life seem more First Men type.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Just wait and see. There were petty kings and petty kings, and not all of them were petty.

For instance, it is already clear that the Yronwoods of Yronwood were the most powerful house in Dorne prior to the coming of the Rhoynar, are we not?

True, the Starks eventually subdued the whole North, but this does not have to mean that they always were the most powerful house in the North.

There are hints what may have been caused Stark supremacy in the years after the Long Night.

We have 'the Kings of Winter', the hot pools at Winterfell, and the Winter Town. Originally, the Starks may have been 'the kings you go to when winter reigns'. The assumption that the title 'the Kings of Winter' is supposed to mean that the Starks actually rule or command the forces of winter makes little sense.

From such an honored position the Starks could have started their spring conquests, eventually ruling over the whole North. But this does not have to mean that the Starks are the oldest or the most powerful royal house in the North. That should (or could) be House Dustin.

It is pretty likely that the title Kings of Winter dates back to the period before they were the Kings in the North, and merely kings of Winter(fell). Meaning to the time when they still did not rule the entire North. And then later they just retained that original title out of tradition.

But what is also very clear is that the Starks completed their conquest of the majority of their Northern kingdom thousands of years earlier than any of the Southron Six kingdoms of today managed to come even close to achieving that.

When the Andals arrived they found the 100 kingdoms of the First Men. Meaning the South was ruled by scores of petty kings with no semblence of the Six southron kingdoms that exist today.

But at that time, the Starks already ruled the Neck, which was incorporated into their kingdom a generation AFTER Jon Stark founded the Wolfs Den at the future site of White Harbor. And it seems their rule stretched up to the Wall from very close to its founding, given their central role in its establishment, the granting of the Gift to support it, and their involvement as the major power in stopping every wildling invasion stretching back to Gendel and Gorne 3000 years and more ago.

Heck, the story we have of the Night's king is that he was the 13th commander of the Night's Watch, which would date him to hardly a century after the Long Night. And already then the Stark that joined forces with Joramun to bring him down was the King in the North.

As much as these tales are embellished and unreliable, it is quite clear from a number of widely separate sources that the Starks have ruled the North for vastly longer than any Southron king had ruled anything more than a petty kingdom of any notable size.

EDIT

Just to add that I don't dispute that the Dustins and co were likely ancient petty kings in the North, given that the First Men would have migrated up the Neck and Barrowton may well have been the first major settlement 11,000 years ago or whenever they first crossed into the North.

But I think that the Long Night more or less ended the existence of whichever petty kingdoms existed in the North prior to 8,000 years ago, and civilization pretty much had to be built up from scratch again North of the Neck once the Others were defeated. And I think Winterfell was the centre of this rebirth from 8,000 years ago onwards.

So I am pretty comfortable with the view that the Starks have been the most powerful House in the North for the last 8,000 years or whatever the actual date was that the Long Night ended.

So, Pre-Long Night - I'm sure there were a bunch of petty kings, of which the Dustins may even have been the most prominent, and with Bran the Builder maybe being just a wandering adventurer - likely becoming the first human greenseer and the founder of his House.

But post-Long Night I think it was House Stark as the biggest dog in the pack all the way. Seeing as they saved the world and all.

Second EDIT

I also recall Ran dropping a snippet about a lot of interesting kings running around the North "back in the day".

But I would wager that "back in the day" in the case of the North is thousands of years earlier than it was in the South.

It had to be, given the extent of the Starks' s rule and power when the Andals arrived, compared to the state of the South at that time.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

That's not from Harper, so far as I know. I can't find it among their tweets. Someone said it came via a French twitter but he did not know the provenance.

Here is the source-- https://twitter.com/gardedenuit/status/521061170762219521

Many of their tweets are copies of HV's but they are offering other tidbits as well. It looks like they started a few days by copying the HV tweets (and not attributing them) and then started adding their own "facts" many of which can be attributed to current canon.

Speaking of which, don't we hear in one of Dany's chapters that Lhazareens don't eat meat? Or at least not sheep? Which would make perfect sense given the importance of sheep to their economy ;)

[Lord Varys]

As to House Dustin:

This stuff about Barrowton containing the the barrow of the First King of the First Men was in ADwD, right? That was a pretty good hint that they were at least an older royal line than the Starks, although we can't be sure that they are actually descended from that guy.

As to the coming of the Andals:

Whether there were hundred kingdoms everywhere remains to be seen. The Westerlands reading has already confirmed that the Lannisters were there before the Andals, and they would already have ruled a pretty decent portion of the present day West (although not yet everything).

We have no idea how/when the Gardeners and Durrandons conquered their particular realms. The kingdoms that were definitely fragmented were the Riverlands, Dorne, and (possibly) the Vale. We have also no idea whether the Andals were interested in conquering the North when they were invading Westeros from Andalos (perhaps they were not that eager to live in a colder place), or if the various Andal kings only turned their eye north after they had taken the Vale, the Riverlands, and possibly even the West.

But back to the Boltons, which I forgot above:

I'd be very, very surprised if they had not been the bane of the Starks and the most powerful Northern royal house at least during a large portion of Northern history. They are still very strong, and their reputation has to be this bad for a reason, considering that most of the ancient Northmen must have been cruel and hard men.

And I'm pretty sure we'll get a very decent chronic of the Stark Conquest of the North.

On the Lhazareen:

Could be that we heard something about their eating habits in the books. But I don't remember it.

Speaking about nothing in particular, Æthelred the Unready is a very interesting historical figure in English history, don't you agree?

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

On the Lhazareen:

Could be that we heard something about their eating habits in the books. But I don't remember it.

Speaking about nothing in particular, Æthelred the Unready is a very interesting historical figure in English history, don't you agree?

I'm pretty sure it was a passing comment at best.

As for Aethelred Unraed, I could't agree more ;)

[Free Northman Reborn]

As to House Dustin:

This stuff about Barrowton containing the the barrow of the First King of the First Men was in ADwD, right? That was a pretty good hint that they were at least an older royal line than the Starks, although we can't be sure that they are actually descended from that guy.

As to the coming of the Andals:

Whether there were hundred kingdoms everywhere remains to be seen. The Westerlands reading has already confirmed that the Lannisters were there before the Andals, and they would already have ruled a pretty decent portion of the present day West (although not yet everything).

We have no idea how/when the Gardeners and Durrandons conquered their particular realms. The kingdoms that were definitely fragmented were the Riverlands, Dorne, and (possibly) the Vale. We have also no idea whether the Andals were interested in conquering the North when they were invading Westeros from Andalos (perhaps they were not that eager to live in a colder place), or if the various Andal kings only turned their eye north after they had taken the Vale, the Riverlands, and possibly even the West.

But back to the Boltons, which I forgot above:

I'd be very, very surprised if they had not been the bane of the Starks and the most powerful Northern royal house at least during a large portion of Northern history. They are still very strong, and their reputation has to be this bad for a reason, considering that most of the ancient Northmen must have been cruel and hard men.

And I'm pretty sure we'll get a very decent chronic of the Stark Conquest of the North.

On the Lhazareen:

Could be that we heard something about their eating habits in the books. But I don't remember it.

Speaking about nothing in particular, Æthelred the Unready is a very interesting historical figure in English history, don't you agree?

The Long Night was 8,000 years ago. We have the Starks conquering the Marsh King (likely the last and most difficult addition to their kingdom) one generation after Jon Stark built the Wolfs Den. In order to conquer the Neck, the Starks had to already rule the Barrowlands at this point. And the founding of the Wolfs Den can be dated from Ser Bartimus's tale to at least 3000, and most likely more like 4000 years ago.

At the same time we have a reading from the World Book, where the Maesters dispute the idea that the First Men spread across all of Westeros in one generation. They say it was more likely a process that lasted many centuries. Which refutes the Dustin claim that the First King who led the First Men across the Arm of Dorne is buried at Barrowton. A more likely scenario is that the First Men only reached the North a century or more after the First King died.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

"DothrakiBBQ"

:lol: :lmao:

[Veltigar]

Speaking about nothing in particular, Æthelred the Unready is a very interesting historical figure in English history, don't you agree?

I'm guessing that I'm missing something here :P (or is it just about the fact that his reign wasn't as bad as most older historians make out to be?)

[Lord Varys]

TNR,

some of this stuff may be resolved soon, although I don't think that Yandel will make (all that many) assumptions or speculations about existing petty kingdoms prior to the Long Night.

And we don't have to assume that the Starks subdued the lands closer to Winterfell necessarily before the lands farther away. It would be entirely possible that a Bolton kingdom existed in the North, partially, or nearly completely surrounded by Stark holdings.

[The hairy bear]

No, we don't know that the Boltons owned the Karstark lands. We just know that the Karstark lands were taken from a defeated rebel lord. That could have been any lord. There is no evidence whatsoever that it belonged to the Boltons.

As you say, the text says that the Karstark lands were taken from a defeated rebel lord "a thousand years ago". And then, were are told that the Boltons last rebelled against the Starks "a thousand years ago" (ACOK, Theon IV). That, and the fact that the Karstark lands neighbour the Boltons, seem proof enough to me.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

No, we don't know that the Boltons owned the Karstark lands. We just know that the Karstark lands were taken from a defeated rebel lord. That could have been any lord. There is no evidence whatsoever that it belonged to the Boltons.

And we further know that Jon Stark built the Wolf's Den 4000 years ago or more, at a time when there was no settlement there. So it is highly unlikely that the Bolton rule ever stretched that far South.

In truth, the Boltons were just one of a bunch of First Men petty kings that existed in the North in ancient times. Most likely along with the Umber Kings, the Hornwood Kings, the Dustin, Ryswell, Flint and Marsh Kings.

This idea that the Boltons ruled large parts of the North at some point is totally unfounded. They were simply particularly unruly and reluctant vassals of the Starks. Not powerful rivals that ruled half the Northern continent, like some people like to fantasize. At least, there is zero evidence for the latter scenario.

There is zero evidence for any of it though. Almost everything anyone can say is speculation.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Hairy bear

Note that the Greystarks were never ruled by the Boltons, but lost their lands and titles when they joined with the Boltons in a failed rebellion against the Starks around 3000 years ago. So the lord that formerly ruled the Karstark lands could just as well have been a similar case to the Greystarks. The lord probably allied with the Boltons in a rebellion 700-1000 years ago (there are conflicting dates for this rebellion, quote saying 1000 years ago, the other 700 years ago, but the most likely seems to be 700 years before the Conquest, which is indeed 1000 years ago), and when the rebellion was crushed the Boltons kept their lands through some unknown means, while the lord from the Karhold territory was not so lucky.

[Hardstone]

"The Rhoynar people are said to be the first to learn the art of iron-making #Resourceful #FactsofIceandFire https://t.co/IVbxcCZ72f" - 14/10/14

[Free Northman Reborn]

I think that last bit is unlikely to be true.

In DWD Illyrio tells Tyrion that the Andals likely learned the art of Ironworking from the Rhoynar and it is implied that the Rhoynar in turn learned it from older civilizations further east.

The picture that emerges is one of the technology gradually spreading from East to West, with the Rhoynar learning it earlier than the Andals, who in turn brought it to the First Men in the Far West.

[LordBloodraven]

"Did you know that the Lannisters originates from the First Men but looks like Andals?" #Chance #FactsofIceandFire.

This came form "La Garde de Nuit". I'm not sure for HarperVoyager

[Stannis's Lawyer]

"Did you know that the Lannisters originates from the First Men but looks like Andals?" #Chance #FactsofIceandFire.

This came form "La Garde de Nuit". I'm not sure for HarperVoyager

That's been confirmed.

[LordBloodraven]

That's been confirmed.

Yes but i don't think they are following/translating HarperVoyager's tweets. Just making their own and sometimes translating HV's

[Free Northman Reborn]

There has been extensive discussion on the Lannister origins.

And the likely answer that fits most of the available data is that Lann the Clever was probably a First Man guardsman or some other retainer of the Casterlys, back in the Age of Heroes, who eventually managed to marry Lord Casterly's daughter and thereby gain ownership of Casterly Rock.

And then many thousands of years later the Andals arrived and married a distant female descendant of Lann, thus gaining control of the Rock through marriage just like Lann originally did. They merely retained the Lannister name to solidify their legitimacy.

And this is hardly unique, as it is probably the standard way in which most First Men kingdoms were taken over by the Andals. Much like the Starks took over the Neck by marrying the Marsh King's daughter after defeating him.

So the statement that the "Lannisters originate from the First Men but look like Andals" is rather misleading, when seen in the above context. They have some First Man blood in them, through the female line. But this is the case for pretty much every other person in Westeros as well.