Marcus Agrippa Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 Recently, somebody brought up an argument about the failures of Tywin in the story. Looking back on it however all the schemers, plotters, and pieces from Roberts Rebellion have died during this war and have missed the destruction of their families and lands. Ned Stark died before Robb getting gunned down ad Winterfel getting sacked. Tywin died before seeing Cersei mocked, Jaime disappearing, and Tyrion starting Aegons invasion. Hoster had has lands in ruins during the war but right before he died it looked like Robb was a bout to win with Stannis (and I believe Renly was still in the game) still legit threats to the Lannisters. Hoster also had the best fate out of all of them- at least he wasn't betrayed in some way. Where Doran is still alive he will probably be dead before the mid part of winds. He will miss the downfall of his family caused probs by Ariane, I noticed that the Tyrells might not actually lose their head of house. Mace was a bit of an idiot and did the bare minimum in Roberts Rebellion. However his fate hasn't really been hinted at. Garlan might end up dead along with his siblings but I just don't see Mace dying for some reason. I also believe Margery had premarital sex which the faith care about- that might get her killed. On the other end I would like it noted that Steffon Baratheon didn't seem overly involved with any planning. We know all the old alliances between the North and the Stormlands. Thought the marriage was a curiosity (Robert/Lyanna) that can't be fully explained by this. Why did I mention all of this? In a lot of books it seems the younger generation is set to fix what the eler group did wrong- however in this series the elder group did a lot of things right and wrong but the younger generation seems to do everything wrong. Also Mace being the final head of house survivor through RR and WOTFK's strikes me as deeply ironic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diregirl Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 I thought it was more of a "who lives by the sword shall die by the sword"-thing, and also a reminder of the shorter lifespans in past centuries - many adults wouldn't have a chance to meet their grandchildren.Also how conflicts are passed on to the second generation (and maybe the third?) and the past is never past but just breeds new conflicts in the present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UVA Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 On the other end I would like it noted that Steffon Baratheon didn't seem overly involved with any planning. We know all the old alliances between the North and the Stormlands. Thought the marriage was a curiosity (Robert/Lyanna) that can't be fully explained by this. Steffon died when Robert and Stannis were young, I don't think he had anything to do with Robert's betrothal to Lyanna. Why did I mention all of this? In a lot of books it seems the younger generation is set to fix what the eler group did wrong- however in this series the elder group did a lot of things right and wrong but the younger generation seems to do everything wrong. Also Mace being the final head of house survivor through RR and WOTFK's strikes me as deeply ironic. I sort of see the relationship among multiple generations as a kind of 'generational 'malignancy, like the curse of the House of Arteus -- sins of the father (esp. in regard to Tywin) -- and the cycle violence, stupidity, kinslaying only stops through great sacrifice "neither he nor any descendant of his would ever again be driven into evil by the irresistible power of the past". Being defined by the past and whether or not one can transcend that legacy is a driving theme in the series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Agrippa Posted October 10, 2014 Author Share Posted October 10, 2014 I thought it was more of a "who lives by the sword shall die by the sword"-thing, and also a reminder of the shorter lifespans in past centuries - many adults wouldn't have a chance to meet their grandchildren. Also how conflicts are passed on to the second generation (and maybe the third?) and the past is never past but just breeds new conflicts in the present. Possibility- lot of the ones who fought are dead. I am not sure about the medieval period but I know the classical period for the Romans (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-11952322) people had a reasonable life span. That was the early empire period. I also see that. We are seeing a lot of it in the modern world.It's somewhat ironic. Steffon died when Robert and Stannis were young, I don't think he had anything to do with Robert's betrothal to Lyanna. I sort of see the relationship among multiple generations as a kind of 'generational 'malignancy, like the curse of the House of Arteus -- sins of the father (esp. in regard to Tywin) -- and the cycle violence, stupidity, kinslaying only stops through great sacrifice "neither he nor any descendant of his would ever again be driven into evil by the irresistible power of the past". Being defined by the past and whether or not one can transcend that legacy is a driving theme in the series. Timeline wise Stefonf died in 278. Robert and Lyanna were scheduled to be married before harrenhal whcih happened in 81. So he had something to do it with I think. Does anybody actually have a date for their betrothal? I see that for a lot of them except for Hoster Tully. I am not sure if Tullies deserved what they got alongside the riverlands. what Robb did was unexpected and pretty dumb until he started winning. I agree legacy is big as is family. They seem to be in the over all themes of the series. It still doessn't explain some of the families stupidity. I would also like to note the outliers here are the Baratheon's. Stannis had to raise himself and Renly until Robert declared war which was a little unfair to mom. In some way Stannis killed his own kid (despite it being his brother) It just adds on the pain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hos the Hostage Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Speaking of younger generation, Robb Stark is killed,Robert Arryn is sickly,Jaime Lannister is maimed,Quentyn Martell is burnt,Viserys Targaryen is killed,Willas Tyrell is crippled,Shireen Baratheon has greyscale,Theon Greyjoy is Reek. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 I once proposed a theory that Martin was a secret Targ because pretty much all the head usurpers died badly, in pretty much the exact same order that they rebelled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Agrippa Posted October 13, 2014 Author Share Posted October 13, 2014 I once proposed a theory that Martin was a secret Targ because pretty much all the head usurpers died badly, in pretty much the exact same order that they rebelled. It's unclear if Ned or Robert called his banners thought uniquelly enough i think storms end would be faster then winterfell. Timing of their deaths are also pretty close to the exact date tehy joined the rebellion if you start with Jon Aryns death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Agrippa Posted October 13, 2014 Author Share Posted October 13, 2014 Speaking of younger generation,Robb Stark is killed,Robert Arryn is sickly,Jaime Lannister is maimed,Quentyn Martell is burnt,Viserys Targaryen is killed,Willas Tyrell is crippled,Shireen Baratheon has greyscale,Theon Greyjoy is Reek.had* greyscale. there has been no hits if the disease has become active again. Dormancy has been commented on- I think if childern surive the intial months they have no reason to fear it again. GreyScale sounds like it is a magical disease however and it could resume its dasterdly work at the wall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trogdor Targaryen Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Speaking of younger generation,Robb Stark is killed,Robert Arryn is sickly,Jaime Lannister is maimed,Quentyn Martell is burnt,Viserys Targaryen is killed,Willas Tyrell is crippled,Shireen Baratheon has greyscale,Theon Greyjoy is Reek.I think that Jaime would count as the older generation, he has children who are the current generation, and he participated in Roberts Rebellion.Instead you could mention that Joffrey is dead, and Tommen weak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baela of Pentos Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 I think that Jaime would count as the older generation, he has children who are the current generation, and he participated in Roberts Rebellion.Instead you could mention that Joffrey is dead, and Tommen weak.And Myrcella missing an ear... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Agrippa Posted October 14, 2014 Author Share Posted October 14, 2014 And Myrcella missing an ear... If she isn't dead. There are theories reporting her death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 had* greyscale. there has been no hits if the disease has become active again. Dormancy has been commented on- I think if childern surive the intial months they have no reason to fear it again. GreyScale sounds like it is a magical disease however and it could resume its dasterdly work at the wall Jon Connington already has it and isn't it Val who has said that the disease would kill Shireen? She is a dead child? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Agrippa Posted October 14, 2014 Author Share Posted October 14, 2014 Jon Connington already has it and isn't it Val who has said that the disease would kill Shireen? She is a dead child? Jon is an adult- if you have it as an adult its guaranteed to turn you into a stone man. Val is also some what ignorant. The maesters pointed out that greyscale in children if they survive initial contact will live with scaring. The disease should go into remission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickdt Posted October 26, 2014 Share Posted October 26, 2014 Speaking of younger generation,Robb Stark is killed,Robert Arryn is sickly,Jaime Lannister is maimed,Quentyn Martell is burnt,Viserys Targaryen is killed,Willas Tyrell is crippled,Shireen Baratheon has greyscale,Theon Greyjoy is Reek.Renly Baratheon is killed (Is also a younger gen), was a child during RR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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