The Marquis de Leech Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 Most importantly, why didn't the entirety of the Mandate go over to the Consult then? Did Seswatha know he was damned? Perhaps they figured that it is better to suffer individual damnation than perform mass genocide? Given the choice between killing millions or suffering in the afterlife, I think you'd find most people would take the altruistic option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatúrinbor Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 The Dreams had grown more intense. Relentless. So much so that any lapse in concentration saw the present swept away in some past trauma, at times horrific enough to make one's hands shake, one's mouth form around voiceless cries. The chance that such horror could return [...] Curse! The Mandate was a curse! Dispossessed of the God. Dispossessed even of the present. Only the clawing, choking fear that the future might resemble the past.there was no present, only the clamour of a harrowing past and the threat of a corresponding future. [...] this world without a present, this world whose only frame of reference was past tragedy.Mandate Schoolmen live the horror of the Apocalypse on a daily basis. It's not some notion of afterlife suffering that none of them have experienced--and many are actually sceptic about. The Dreams cloud their thoughts with enough hatred for the Consult to make joining it unthinkable.Compare the above quotes with Shaeonanra's POV,But these were vain questions. They fell away as quickly as Onkhis offered them up, so flimsy were the concerns that moved them. All that mattered, the Ground's only consequential thing, was what he had seen...Damnation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castel Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 What would Bakker's rap nickname be. Khellus could be K-easy, Bakker could be B-easy or Breezy.... The album name would be E.A.M.D. Possible tracks include a cover of Dr. Dre's Housewife, a cover of Kanye's Stronger, and maybe Nelly & Tim McGraw's Over Again for Akka. Breezy is already taken by someone that I think we can all agree even Bakker doesn't deserve to be associated with. Surprised you went with Stronger, and not a song from that subtle Kanye West classic album, Yeezus. (Though surely the interlude with the No-God must use this song?) Perhaps they figured that it is better to suffer individual damnation than perform mass genocide? Given the choice between killing millions or suffering in the afterlife, I think you'd find most people would take the altruistic option. :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: Hah, that's funny but no. Strangely enough, genocide is basically better on every level. It's a better move for the altruist and the selfish bastard. It's a hilarious situation Bakker has set up here, if not a novel one, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted October 12, 2014 Author Share Posted October 12, 2014 Breezy is already taken by someone that I think we can all agree even Bakker doesn't deserve to be associated with. Surprised you went with Stronger, and not a song from that subtle Kanye West classic album, Yeezus. (Though surely the interlude with the No-God must use this song?) Ah I forgot Breezy was Chris Brown. B-Easy it is then. Jesus Walks works for Kellhus. For Bakker the best Kanye track is probably a recording of the rapper interrupting and talking over Taylor Shift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted October 12, 2014 Author Share Posted October 12, 2014 So Meppa might be the Artist Formerly Known as Moenghus? You're starting to remind me of that chick in Mean Girls who keeps try to make "fetch" happen. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhom Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 Was on vacation last week and was able to power through TJE. Now on to my WLW reread.I noticed Eskeles mention late in the book "Sauglish again" about his dreams. So are all the Mandate getting switched up dreams like Akka? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatúrinbor Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 Can you clarify the significance guys? Did Eskeles say there was anything different about the dream (don't have the book with me)? Because there is a regular Mandate dream regarding the burning of the Library of Sauglish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhom Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 The comment comes in the last Condia chapter as Eskeles is preparing to walk to the council of great names with Sorweel. He makes the comment "Sauglish again" which made me feel like he was experiencing the Sauglish dream more frequently than usual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhom Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 Very nice catch. I had always assumed that it was only Akka, but that makes me rethink things. On the other board I had wanted to do a project going through all of Akka's dreams, the timing, what was going on with him around that time, and the contents. But I got lazy. Need to get back to that one. Sci - I will not take even playful barbs from you until you give us a proper thread title!That would be quite the undertaking, but would definitely be an interesting read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 On the other board I had wanted to do a project going through all of Akka's dreams, the timing, what was going on with him around that time, and the contents. But I got lazy. Need to get back to that one. Yeah good find Rhom. Trisk you should just dole.out assignments without asking for volunteers and then just ridicule anyone who doesn't come through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madness Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 That would be quite the undertaking, but would definitely be an interesting read. It was undertook: Investigating Achamian's Dreams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: Hah, that's funny but no. Strangely enough, genocide is basically better on every level. It's a better move for the altruist and the selfish bastard. It's a hilarious situation Bakker has set up here, if not a novel one, Perhaps it's just me, but living with a planetary genocide on my conscience would be pretty damn horrible. If you told someone the only way they could avoid going to Hell would be to launch a nuclear war, I think you'd find plenty of people unwilling to go through with it, even if they knew Hell was objectively real. I also don't see how it would be better from an altruistic angle... Join Consult and Succeed = You're a mass murderer, but at least you aren't damned. Join Consult and Fail = You're a (slightly lesser) mass murderer and get damned anyway. Oppose Consult and Succeed = You stopped mass murder, but get damned anyway for being a Sorcerer Oppose Consult and Fail = At least you tried to stop mass murder, but get damned anyway for being a Sorcerer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhom Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Actually... To oppose the Consult but fail might be the best outcome. You tried to do the right thing, but the Consult won anyways; so the world is shut and you aren't damned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted October 13, 2014 Author Share Posted October 13, 2014 Perhaps it's just me, but living with a planetary genocide on my conscience would be pretty damn horrible. If you told someone the only way they could avoid going to Hell would be to launch a nuclear war, I think you'd find plenty of people unwilling to go through with it, even if they knew Hell was objectively real. I also don't see how it would be better from an altruistic angle... Join Consult and Succeed = You're a mass murderer, but at least you aren't damned. Join Consult and Fail = You're a (slightly lesser) mass murderer and get damned anyway. Oppose Consult and Succeed = You stopped mass murder, but get damned anyway for being a Sorcerer Oppose Consult and Fail = At least you tried to stop mass murder, but get damned anyway for being a Sorcerer What's murder matter when the souls you kill off are possibly saved? The true crime isn't the killing, it's killing people while being ignorant as to their eternal fate. Sci - I will not take even playful barbs from you until you give us a proper thread title! Hey, come up with something and I'll change it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Actually... To oppose the Consult but fail might be the best outcome. You tried to do the right thing, but the Consult won anyways; so the world is shut and you aren't damned. I was working with the assumption that if you fail, you get killed (and thus damned) before the world is shut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castel Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Perhaps it's just me, but living with a planetary genocide on my conscience would be pretty damn horrible. If you told someone the only way they could avoid going to Hell would be to launch a nuclear war, I think you'd find plenty of people unwilling to go through with it, even if they knew Hell was objectively real. I also don't see how it would be better from an altruistic angle... Join Consult and Succeed = You're a mass murderer, but at least you aren't damned. Join Consult and Fail = You're a (slightly lesser) mass murderer and get damned anyway. Oppose Consult and Succeed = You stopped mass murder, but get damned anyway for being a Sorcerer Oppose Consult and Fail = At least you tried to stop mass murder, but get damned anyway for being a Sorcerer You're speaking as if you're the only one going to hell. Everyone is going to Hell forever. Everyone who is ever born is at risk of burning for eternity. Humanity is fucked in a manner that beggars belief,and even worse, they don't even know it. They seem to have evolved almost exactly like we did, so they don't have some scanner in their head that allows them to avoid actions that will drive them to hell. Simply put: they're constantly irrational or mistaken. They constantly sin, they constantly bring kids up in such a world.In short:ever are men deceived. Except now everyone is suffering for it. The best thing for everyone would be to stop the cycle. There's nothing so valuable about Earwan society that it demands that one sit around watching people in the universe get torn apart by demons for sport. And this is a universal problem: the Consult aren't from Earwa, yet they were damned. Actually... To oppose the Consult but fail might be the best outcome. You tried to do the right thing, but the Consult won anyways; so the world is shut and you aren't damned. No. You tried to do the wrong thing. It feels right, psychologically, but it's wrong. The best outcome would be to join the Consult, and try to kill everyone,not just everyone on Earwa -144,000 people. The Consult obviously have to die too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 You're speaking as if you're the only one going to hell. Everyone is going to Hell forever. But I (unlike most people) would be guaranteed Hell. And even if literally everyone is damned, they'll be going to Hell when you kill them too. By this reasoning, what matters is not so much people having to die now (which would be cruel), but rather ensuring no new souls are brought into the world. Dear old Mog-Pharau (or a worldwide ban on sex or something) takes care of the latter, but there's no reason those currently living can't live out their full expectancy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castel Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 But I (unlike most people) would be guaranteed Hell. And even if literally everyone is damned, they'll be going to Hell when you kill them too. By this reasoning, what matters is not so much people having to die now (which would be cruel), but rather ensuring no new souls are brought into the world. Dear old Mog-Pharau (or a worldwide ban on sex or something) takes care of the latter, but there's no reason those currently living can't live out their full expectancy. Assuming that the No-God's power wasn't limited to Earwa, sure. If it isn't though -or you don't know- then people on other planets are still being damned when they're born because the population is taking too long to drop. (Also assuming that the Consult weren't complete morons either and attacked for a reason). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diziet Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Mandate Schoolmen live the horror of the Apocalypse on a daily basis. It's not some notion of afterlife suffering that none of them have experienced--and many are actually sceptic about. The Dreams cloud their thoughts with enough hatred for the Consult to make joining it unthinkable.Compare the above quotes with Shaeonanra's POV, Yeah, that's pretty much it when it comes to the Mandate. As for other sorcerers, most didn't believe the Consult existed before Kellhus despite the endless Mandate harping, and it's not like the Consult is recruiting anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diziet Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 That would be quite the undertaking, but would definitely be an interesting read. Yes, it would be. Other men, far greater than he, had gone mad trying to decipher the deranged sequence and permutations of Seswatha's Dreams. He knew well enough to realize he'd never find an answer. ~TDTCB, Chapter One I'm not sure we should bother, at least not until we have the full picture post TUC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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