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Bakker XXX: A Dark and Seminal Work


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Just saw this on TSF,




Q: I am also wondering about women among the Dunyain. I don't have my books now, but when they arrive at the fortress in the north, there are women amongst them and the group has survived. But, we have yet to see any through Kelhus's recollections. I am very nervous about this, especially after seeing the face room. I would dread stumbling on a mating room. Who and where is Kelhus's mother? If he has the concept of Father and has a dialogue going with him in his head, why is any thought of a mother totally absent? Basically, I wonder about gender relations and roles amongst the Dunyain...



A: I'd like to go into the question of the Dunyain and gender, but believe it or not, the issue has a significant role to play in the greater story of the Second Apocalypse - I think I need to turn this 'no-answer answer' into a macro or something! Sorry Laughing.



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Just reading some interviews from Bakker on the web from 2004-09 range. a few quotes that may be of interest.

This was perhaps the second greatest difficulty I had writing Kellhus: depicting him in such a way that my readers would always have a sense of the distance between his claims and his intentions. I'm still not happy with the way I resolved this problem.

The original plan was to have Kellhus progressively disappear as a viewpoint character as he gained power throughout The Prince of Nothing. The problem, it turned out, was that all my draft readers began to believe him, rather than continually conditioning everything he said and did with what they had learned from their initial glimpses into his manipulative psyche. So I was forced to go back and to add several viewpoint sections to remind them what Kellhus was up to.

The reader is on their own in The Aspect-Emperor, Im afraid. This is a lesson I learned from Hawthorne: if you want to create the intimation of power and transcendence, its far better to draw down the veil than to lift the skirts. I presume this is why all the ways the Bush Administration has saved America from further terrorist attacks seem to be classified.'

RSB: The Prince of Nothing consists of three books, The Darkness That Comes Before, The Warrior-Prophet, and The Thousandfold Thought. They tell the story of the crucial events that occur some twenty years before the Second Apocalypse begins. I have outlines (whose original forms, coincidentally, date back some twenty years) that sketch the story of the Second Apocalypse, starting with The Aspect-Emperor and ending with The-Book-that-Shall-Not-Be-Named. Whether these will turn into trilogies like The Prince of Nothing remains to be seen. My guess is that each will be a dualogy.

I once boasted while very drunk that I wanted to write something that would ultimately make The Lord of the Rings look like Little Miss Muffet. Itll never happen, of course, but I truly do want to write something worthy of the word epic, hoping that even if I fail Ive accomplished something interesting. Since buying into a series of books is very much like getting into a car with someone else behind the wheel, people should know why Im wearing a crash helmet.

Links to interviews:

http://www.sffworld.com/2004/07/scifiint_7/

http://richardrbmarcus.com/2009/01/interview_r_scott_bakker_autho.html

https://www.sfsite.com/10a/sb185.htm

ETA: this is from Bakker on the zombie three seas forum in response to someone posting that they were u satisfied with the resolution we got in TTT. It's instrucitve of how much closure we will get in TUC, which after all is supposed to show the start of the Second Apocalypse.

I'm tempted to say that if the ending pissed you off, just wait for the ending ending! <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: --> view post

Link: http://forum.three-seas.com/posts/10692

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Lol... yay. So many nuggets out there. Really wish Bakker still interacted with the fans through a medium like ZTS.



For those interested again:



Interviews & Articles


Zombie Three Seas - Author Q&A is the subforum to look through (though many names here are True Old Names of the TS era).


The Almanac - Please Contribute


The Blasphemer's Guide - Westeros' Collected Threadlist


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It's instrucitve of how much closure we will get in TUC, which after all is supposed to show the start of the Second Apocalypse.



Well, you could argue that it started with the Great Ordeal, especially after Sakarpus (in similar fashion to the FA).



Whatever the 'real mystery' or 'where the story is going' turns out to be, it's hard to guess at this point because Bakker has not given us all the clues yet. An Apocalypse is going to happen, but so far the assumption has been that it's going to be a repeat of the First Apocalypse. That's the Mandate/Akka's assumption, but the Celmomian Prophecy (assuming that it's true) only says that an Anasurimbor will return at the end of the world, there is no mention of the Consult or the No-God. And that in my view is going to be where Bakker pulls a twist on the reader.



I think many will be disappointed with The Unholy Consult mainly because there is an assumption that the book is going to be a big metaphysical info-bomb, when Bakker is for the most part done with unveiling the metaphysics of the world. Sure there are some things to be answered, for instance who's damned and who's not (which he will clarify a bit but not comprehensively) and what the Consult did to make the No-God rise--but that's pretty much it. A lot of the questions that are often discussed in these threads will be left for the reader to ponder. The unveiling of the world--or however you refer to it--has been fun, but it's not the plot of the Second Apocalypse.




What TUC will instead focus on are the history and the motivating factors behind the actual Apocalypse that is about to happen. Most notably, how did the early Dunyain stumble upon Ishual, why did Moenghus leave Ishual in the first place, what is the mystery of the 'Dunyain feminine,' and how is Seswatha and the Nonmen of Ishterebinth connected to all of this.


Those who think that we've been told everything that's relevant about the Dunyain, Moenghus, Seswatha, the Nonmen are going to be the most out of touch with what's going to happen. That's my guess.

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Lol... yay. So many nuggets out there. Really wish Bakker still interacted with the fans through a medium like ZTS.

For those interested again:

Interviews & Articles

Zombie Three Seas - Author Q&A is the subforum to look through (though many names here are True Old Names of the TS era).

The Almanac - Please Contribute

The Blasphemer's Guide - Westeros' Collected Threadlist

That Westeros collection is amazing. Honestly, I can't imagine how much time you had to put in to sift through all that. Well done!

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What TUC will instead focus on are the history and the motivating factors behind the actual Apocalypse that is about to happen. Most notably, how did the early Dunyain stumble upon Ishual, why did Moenghus leave Ishual in the first place, what is the mystery of the 'Dunyain feminine,' and how is Seswatha and the Nonmen of Ishterebinth connected to all of this.

Those who think that we've been told everything that's relevant about the Dunyain, Moenghus, Seswatha, the Nonmen are going to be the most out of touch with what's going to happen. That's my guess.

I can't see any of the bold mattering much. Or at least I hope not, as IMO everything of value regarding the Dunyain has been mentioned in the previous works.

Bakker's referred to the series as a metaphysical whodunnit. As such, I would expect the metaphysics of the world to play a big part in TUC.

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I can't see any of the bold mattering much. Or at least I hope not, as IMO everything of value regarding the Dunyain has been mentioned in the previous works.

So what did Bakker mean by "I'd like to go into the question of the Dunyain and gender, but believe it or not, the issue has a significant role to play in the greater story of the Second Apocalypse"?

And besides, Madness has already said that you're wrong. [or that's what he said the last time someone expressed this viewpoint.]

Bakker's referred to the series as a metaphysical whodunnit. As such, I would expect the metaphysics of the world to play a big part in TUC.

Elements already established, like the JE, the WLW, and the Gods, will play a big role. But as far as the info-dump goes, not much new info will be revealed.

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So what did Bakker mean by "I'd like to go into the question of the Dunyain and gender, but believe it or not, the issue has a significant role to play in the greater story of the Second Apocalypse"?

And besides, Madness has already said that you're wrong. [or that's what he said the last time someone expressed this viewpoint.]

Dunyain & gender = Serwa.

What exactly did Madness say?

Elements already established, like the JE, the WLW, and the Gods, will play a big role. But as far as the info-dump goes, not much new info will be revealed.

I don't think Bakker is going to come out and say, "Hey, this is a genuinely enchanted world and this is why X & Y happen." What I do expect is that metaphysical considerations about what it means to live in a genuinely enchanted setting - one that seems to cleave close to some kind of Idealism - will end up playing a major role.

I'm not even sure what kind of info-dump we'd need at this point. If Bakker is as good as I think he is regarding the metaphysical aspects lacking in modern fantasy but prevalent in religious mythology (and vice-versa), he'll leave open the door for those who enjoy engaging in hermeneutics. (So in that much we're probably in agreement.)

I will be furious if we don't get more about the Dunyain. I am resigned to the possibility that they may have all been wiped out at Ishual, but I hope very much that we learn more either from Akka and Mimara's arrival there or other reveals.

What more is there to learn? Give us a line about their breeding practices for the torture porn fans and we can call it a wrap. ;-)

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Not sure how serious you are, but just as an example, how do the Pragma actually run shit? How has no senior Dunyain ever not gone rogue? How has not some up and coming Kellhus-type figure not destroyed his so-called superiors? And seriously, how was Moe exiled in that fashion just like that.

Even more than my high hopes for learning more about Ishual are my high hopes for thinking that Moenghus still plays a part. It would be too painful otherwise.

Thirty years, father.

It can't just end with that stabbing in Kyudea.

Big Moe's dead. Of course it ends with the stabbing.

The other stuff seems rather irrelevant to me. Surely you can come up with some ideas, or wait for Bakker to do a short story or three? It's not dragons and chorae, which changes the entire history of the varied wars.

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Over at the splintered mind (that's in the TPB blog list), Eric described a sort of massive computer wrapped around a star, using it's energy to run multiple layers of computers. I even asked him if this was a spoiler, because now I suspect that's what Earwa is - the nail of heaven is an exhaust port for the final remnants of energy that could not be used. Terrorfying, yet beutiful!



PS: I beg forgiveness if this is a women talking to women thread and I'm just too stupid to see that. Just gunna put this in all the time*, so as to never cross a sacred...and undefined border.







Not sure how serious you are, but just as an example, how do the Pragma actually run shit? How has no senior Dunyain ever not gone rogue? How has not some up and coming Kellhus-type figure not destroyed his so-called superiors? And seriously, how was Moe exiled in that fashion just like that.




Indeed, with them being so universally jointed, mind wise, why is there any loyalty to the cause?



Just got lucky and in a sort of mountain redneck way, never recieved any stimulus that broke the cycle? Until Moe, that is.



* Or till it's not funny. So probably just once. And even that's a stretch!


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Dunyain & gender = Serwa.

"The issue of Dunyain and gender" = Serwa? Common, Bakker was specifically asked why we don't see any women in Kellhus' flashback to Ishual like his mother and such. And at other points referred to women in Ishual as a mystery that will be uncovered in the AE. I doubt very much that Kellhus having a daughter is a solution to that mystery or that it answers why Kellhus doesn't remember any women in Ishual.

And let's not forget what Bakker's inspiration for the Duneyain was.

As for Madness' comment [in the podcast], the last time someone said "we won't find anything more about the Dunyain" he basically laughed at them and said something along the lines of "do you honestly think that after all this Bakker would leave it at that?" This is of course after he read the manuscript. He also said that the Ishual chapter is such a reveal that he asked Bakker not to give us the second half of it as a preview.

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SWB I largely agree with your last post. I'll only add that the person Bakker was responding to on the ZTS forum was complaining about the lack of plot thread resolution in TTT and Bakker basically responded that the final ending could be similar.

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SWB I largely agree with your last post. I'll only add that the person Bakker was responding to on the ZTS forum was complaining about the lack of plot thread resolution in TTT and Bakker basically responded that the final ending could be similar.

Well it probably ends with the rise of the Whirlwind...but who is controlling Mog-Pharau...

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SWB I largely agree with your last post. I'll only add that the person Bakker was responding to on the ZTS forum was complaining about the lack of plot thread resolution in TTT and Bakker basically responded that the final ending could be similar.

Sorry, but which comment are you referring to? In the post where he talks about the Dunyain and gender issue from this thread I don't see that at all,

I am also wondering about women among the Dunyain. I don't have my books now, but when they arrive at the fortress in the north, there are women amongst them and the group has survived. But, we have yet to see any through Kelhus's recollections. I am very nervous about this, especially after seeing the face room. I would dread stumbling on a mating room. Who and where is Kelhus's mother? If he has the concept of Father and has a dialogue going with him in his head, why is any thought of a mother totally absent? Basically, I wonder about gender relations and roles amongst the Dunyain...

And Bakker's answer,

I'd like to go into the question of the Dunyain and gender, but believe it or not, the issue has a significant role to play in the greater story of the Second Apocalypse - I think I need to turn this 'no-answer answer' into a macro or something! Sorry Laughing

This was in 2004, which is some time before TTT was released.

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On the one hand, it's hard not to expect a Dunyain breeding room...



OTOH, it's makes little sense to put the women in a position where suicide is a better option than birthing Dunyain, and surely the Dunyain would realize the lustful hungers of men made them more subservient to TDTCB. If there is to be a self-moving soul, wouldn't it be more likely to be in a woman?


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On the one hand, it's hard not to expect a Dunyain breeding room...

OTOH, it's makes little sense to put the women in a position where suicide is a better option than birthing Dunyain, and surely the Dunyain would realize the lustful hungers of men made them more subservient to TDTCB. If there is to be a self-moving soul, wouldn't it be more likely to be in a woman?

I doubt it's a Dune style breeding thing. I think the Inchies may have that with the mother ship. If anything I expect Bakker to reveal that women Dunyain are "better" than men Dunyain (for some definition of better that Bakker will use to justify his nonsexist message in the books).
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So back on this giant super computer thing... So are the proponents of this theory basically saying that Earwa is the Matrix and the Few perceive the Onta much like Neo reading everything as lines of green 1's and 0's?

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