Hello World Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 My guess is that the NG doesn’t need protection from magic in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhom Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Kellhus thinks multiple times in TTT that he should have killed Cnaiur. He had several opportunities to do it. Early in TDTCB holding him over a cliff, after Cnaiur breaks in battle during TWP, and then again in TTT. If Kellhus had killed Cnaiur, at what point could he have done it and still succeeded in achieving his goal of reaching Shimeh and his confrontation with Big Moe? Obviously, it couldn't have been before Umiaki because he needed Cnaiur then. It would also likely have been better had he done it before Cnaiur talked to Akka. Would there have been any benefit to straight killing him rather than making him Conphas' jailer? Would the final battle at Shimeh have turned out any different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhom Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Kellhus also tries to kill Cnaiur one more time by tricking him into going with Conphas at Joktha, I believe. But the Consult busts Cnaiur out of there. Yeah, that was the one I was trying to think of in TTT. If Conphas had managed to succeed there, does it affect Kellhus' plan in any way? If Cnaiur had died anywhere else previously, I think Kellhus fails. Or perhaps even Moe lives to interfere if Nayu doesn't do his odd chorea make-out session. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callan S. Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Kellhus could have killed Cnaiur that time...Cnaiur was aiming Kellhus' sword tip at his own chest and saying "Kill me!", as well. Instead Kellhus almost gets his neck snapped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted October 29, 2014 Author Share Posted October 29, 2014 Trying to remember my timelines here...does Nayu tell Akka the truth of Kellhus after Joktha? Does he find him near Shimeh before striking to Kyudea but after escaping Joktha? Pretty sure it's the bold? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 If Kellhus had killed Cnaiur, at what point could he have done it and still succeeded in achieving his goal of reaching Shimeh and his confrontation with Big Moe?IMHO, I don't think he would have. Might have made it to Shimeh, but Cnaiur was essential for his meeting with Big Moe. I don't think he would have made it off the Circumfix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Trying to remember my timelines here...does Nayu tell Akka the truth of Kellhus after Joktha? Does he find him near Shimeh before striking to Kyudea but after escaping Joktha? Yeah, the second. After Kellhus has left to go talk to Moe, during the attack on Shimeh, Cnauir shows up and spills everything to Akka. Then Cnauir heads on Kellhus' trail and Akka, now all kinda fucked up inside, takes Esmenet off with him to tell her the truth, they fuck, get interrupted and then Akka goes all Sorcerer Supreme on Conphas' boys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted October 29, 2014 Author Share Posted October 29, 2014 If so, than Kellhus depending on Cnaiur to die at Joktha was yet another mistake that allowed Achamian to learn the truth. You mean the same "mistake" that ensured Akka would be isolated and distant enough to protect Mimara? Not to say Kellhus knew Mimara had the TJE or was even alive, but he might've seen the need for Akka to be a Wizard, that in his bitterness Akka might hunt for Ishual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhom Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 I had forgotten that it was Cnaiur's revelations to Akka that drove him off to that remote hillside in the first place. So if Cnaiur dies, Akka isn't in position to coincidentally ambush the Kidruhil and shake their confidence in Conphas and maybe the Empire doesn't fight on the side of the Ordeal in the final moments of the battle of Shimeh. So at no point could Kellhus have killed Cnaiur and still succeeded in his mission. Interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Random question (but some crackpots depend on it), can Moenghus insert thoughts in someone’s head without them knowing it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted October 29, 2014 Author Share Posted October 29, 2014 Random question (but some crackpots depend on it), can Moenghus insert thoughts in someone’s head without them knowing it? Possibly. Same issue with Kellhus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Random question (but some crackpots depend on it), can Moenghus insert thoughts in someones head without them knowing it?I'd say yes. Other than Cnaiur, Conphas, and later Achamian and Esmenet, this is pretty much Kellhus and Moe's MO. I guess depending on how specific you want to get about what counts as 'insert' and 'without them knowing it' the answer could also be 'no'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted October 29, 2014 Author Share Posted October 29, 2014 I'd say yes. Other than Cnaiur, Conphas, and later Achamian and Esmenet, this is pretty much Kellhus and Moe's MO. I guess depending on how specific you want to get about what counts as 'insert' and 'without them knowing it' the answer could also be 'no'. I think Kellhus is manipulating Akka's dreams. That, or the World is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Most recent crackpot i've been considering is that Kellhus is behind the entire Yatwer/Sorwheel thing.Eta: I agree about akkas dreams, finding the skin eaters, even with the Mimara factor is just too coincidental not to be conditioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
profgrape Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 I think Kellhus is manipulating Akka's dreams. That, or the World is. Given the dream from TUC prologue, I can definitely see Khellus' endgame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhom Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Most recent crackpot i've been considering is that Kellhus is behind the entire Yatwer/Sorwheel thing. Eta: I agree about akkas dreams, finding the skin eaters, even with the Mimara factor is just too coincidental not to be conditioned. Didn't Kosoter pretty much tell Akka that Kellhus had told him to be there and ready to escort him? The trip was certainly conditioned. I'm still early in my re-read of WLW and have not made it that far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 I guess depending on how specific you want to get about what counts as 'insert' and 'without them knowing it' the answer could also be 'no'. I meant to magically introduce thoughts in someone's head, the way Onkis supposedly does, and not through Dunyain manipulation. We know that he can send dreams from the prologue, of course. The Dunyain however knew that those weren't any regular dreams because Moenghus wanted them to, but can he send dreams that are indistinguishable from normal dreaming? Those dreams in the prologue by the way were glimpsed in "cataracts of detail." So this water imagery can signal Cishaurim magic. There are several instances where Cnaiür wakes up to some type of rushing water and a convenient thought immediately arises to him, for instance, after the battle of Kiyuth, Morning. Cnaiür awoke shivering. He heard only the deep-running wash of the River Kiyuth. (...) For some reason, the first clear thought to arise from his misery was of his Chorae. Another one is how Cnaiür remembers the secret of battle. He cuts a swazond across his neck and when he wakes up, His sleep was fitful, haunted by dreams of Dûnyain words and Dûnyain deeds. You, the abomination said, still command the ears of the Great. Serwë slumped in Sarcellus’s arms, showering blood. Remember the secret of battle—remember! Cnaiür woke to rain and whispers. The secret of battle … The ears of the Great. Another one (this one is a bit of a stretch) is when Ikurei Xerius discusses the Holy War with his mother and "Her logic, or maybe it was her terror, swept through him with the force of a cataract." Moenghus (or Mallahet) himself appears in the very next scene in front of the Emperor. Point being that he was very close. As for the dreams that Achamian receives, I don't think Kellhus has anything to do with them, in particular the Nau-Cayuti dreams. For example the dream where Achamian witnesses "the fact" of Nau-Cayuti's assassination, as opposed to the experience, was sent to him by someone IMO. But that someone was alive when that thing happened and may have witnessed himself, either directly or through some sort of magic. So my money is on either a Consult member, a God, or a Nonman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Given the dream from TUC prologue, I can definitely see Khellus' endgame.1.give me a link to prologue, please!2.what do you suspect his endgame to be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
profgrape Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 1.Sorry, I didn't mean prologue, I meant first chapter excerpt. It's here: http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=797.0 2. The endgame is the last line from the dream in the excerpt above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 1.Sorry, I didn't mean prologue, I meant first chapter excerpt. It's here: http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=797.0 2. The endgame is the last line from the dream in the excerpt above. The Heron Spear? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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