unJon Posted November 2, 2014 Share Posted November 2, 2014 Perhaps there's someone who can use teleportation, and the WLW can replace them in the timeline. Looks over at Meppa... But WLW wouldn't take over Meppa's powers. Or are you saying something else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted November 2, 2014 Share Posted November 2, 2014 Yeah we've only seen the WLW 'replace' the assassin and that only worked because he was unknown to Esmi (she even comments that his haircut was unusual for a narindar). Not to say he can't just morph into someone else, but there isn't much to suggest it. Seems like there are a lot of people out there that would like to be the one to kill Kellhus.... Fanayal, WLW, Sorwheel, the consult, the ghost of Leweth etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unJon Posted November 2, 2014 Share Posted November 2, 2014 Based on all the other WLW flashes we've seen come true, I do think that the WLW will strike Kelhus with his chipped sword right after it breaks and Kel's face will show surprise. Since Kel is Dunyain, I'm assuming the look of surprise is fake, so I'm guessing there is trickery afoot somewhere.ETA: WLW will also eat an orange at some point in TUC. Don't know that we can know anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Seems like there are a lot of people out there that would like to be the one to kill Kellhus.... Fanayal, WLW, Sorwheel, the consult, the ghost of Leweth etc. Or the real Leweth, also known as Meppa... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted November 3, 2014 Author Share Posted November 3, 2014 But WLW wouldn't take over Meppa's powers. Or are you saying something else? How do we know the WLW wouldn't take Meppa's powers? Seems like he took the assassin's skills? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhom Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 The text makes it clear that everything around him happens as it needs to. I'd say that if he needed Meppas power, Yatwer would make it happen somehow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maithanet Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 The text makes it clear that everything around him happens as it needs to. I'd say that if he needed Meppas power, Yatwer would make it happen somehow. I would be pretty upset if the contradiction of Yatwer (one of the Hundred, which Cishaurim consider nothing more than upjumped Ciphrang) took the powers of Meppa, who's pshuke powers are based on the intense devotion to a totally different religion. I mean, maybe the text could explain it away as Yatwer having that power too, but to me that would mean Yatwer essentially has whatever powers he requires, which would be the death of realism and narrative tension to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted November 3, 2014 Author Share Posted November 3, 2014 I would be pretty upset if the contradiction of Yatwer (one of the Hundred, which Cishaurim consider nothing more than upjumped Ciphrang) took the powers of Meppa, who's pshuke powers are based on the intense devotion to a totally different religion. I mean, maybe the text could explain it away as Yatwer having that power too, but to me that would mean Yatwer essentially has whatever powers he requires, which would be the death of realism and narrative tension to me. AFAIK Meppa's powers are based on recollection of the Whole, rather than faith in Fanimry. If the WLW was simply impersonating the assassin he replaces, then killing Meppa doesn't accomplish much. However, if the WLW literally replaces someone in the timeline gaining Meppa's recollection of the Whole may be enough - with Yatwer's help - to traverse the distance between the Empire & the Ordeal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unJon Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Sci I am now not certain of the textual support now that you have questioned it. My reading of WLW v nadir is not that he "took" any power from him but only that he knew that nadir would be getting a visit from Esmi, so he killed nadir and impersonated him. WLW is described as looking different from nadir but Esmi has no way of knowing that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 I don’t think he took the assassin’s powers either. He was able to kill Maithanet because his WLW powers allowed him to be in the right place at the right time. As for why he bothered to replace the assassin in the first place, I guess he needed Esmenet to remain in power and to get on her side for some reason.The text makes it clear that everything around him happens as it needs to. I'd say that if he needed Meppas power, Yatwer would make it happen somehow. Do we have separate timelines in Eärwa? Because I always so the WLW as Yatwer’s way of moving the world from the original timeline to one in which everything has happened exactly the way the WLW needed it to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Do we have separate timelines in Eärwa? Because I always so the WLW as Yatwers way of moving the world from the original timeline to one in which everything has happened exactly the way the WLW needed it to happen.What's the difference? I remeber HE making a pretty good case.that the WLW is an exceptuon to the Darkness That Comes Before, he quite literally is What Comes After Determines What Comes Before. So what ever Yatwer needs to happen at the end, determines what the WLW does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted November 3, 2014 Author Share Posted November 3, 2014 I don’t think he took the assassin’s powers either. He was able to kill Maithanet because his WLW powers allowed him to be in the right place at the right time. As for why he bothered to replace the assassin in the first place, I guess he needed Esmenet to remain in power and to get on her side for some reason. But if he can be at the "right place at the right time", then why does he need to get on Esmi's side? Why not just wander from place to place killing people at the right time? Seems to me the WLW has to take the place of mortals in the timeline for Yatwer to arrange events around him properly. Whether the WLW could gain a Cishaurim's metaphysical insights...not sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 But if he can be at the "right place at the right time", then why does he need to get on Esmi's side? Why not just wander from place to place killing people at the right time? I don’t think he’s there to merely kill people. My guess is that he could have killed Maithanet in some other place/time where it would have been far easier for him to do it and escape without having to count on Esmenet’s quick-thinking, but it had to happen in that manner. The assassination, IMO, was more about Esmenet seizing power than about Maithanet. He’s just collateral; Psatma didn’t even name him while fucking the WLW, she only included Kellhus, Esmi, Kelmomas, and Fanayal IIRC. As for him being in the right place at the right time, he needs to use those around him to make it happen--like Esmi for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callan S. Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 But if he can be at the "right place at the right time", then why does he need to get on Esmi's side? Why not just wander from place to place killing people at the right time? Because Esmi's side is a place and a time. The right one. It's not about her and her side as human things. It's about the space time event we call her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unJon Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 Sci I disagree. I think it's a little bit like the end of Groundhog Day or the Tom Cruise Edge of Tomorroe movie. The hero in the movie lives the day enough times to figure out how to take all the right actions and be in all the right places to get what he wants. The WLW is able to do the same thing and on the first try. But Bill Murray in Griundhog Day doesn't take over anyone's powers or replace them in the 'timeline'. The WLW didn't replace the nadir he just impersonated him so that Esmi would meet him so that after he kills the Shrial, Esmi would recognize him and let him go. This whole concept of replacing people in the timeline, I just don't see the support in the text. If the Nadir was going to kill Maithenet anyway, if it all was already going to happen, then the WLW is uneccessary. Instead the nadir is just the convenient means that WLW used to escape after the killing. The WLW in fact needed to act differently than the nadir to accomplish the goal, or else the whole construct of WLW is superfluous. And just like in Ground Hog day, I think it is probably not the case that the WLW makes anything possible. It's just that whatever is possible is and will be exploited by the WLW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 The word is Narindar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unJon Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 The word is Narindar. Pedant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 Sci I disagree. I think it's a little bit like the end of Groundhog Day or the Tom Cruise Edge of Tomorroe movie. The hero in the movie lives the day enough times to figure out how to take all the right actions and be in all the right places to get what he wants. The WLW is able to do the same thing and on the first try.I think Bill Murray needs to play the WLW in the movie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaddin Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 I don’t think he’s there to merely kill people. My guess is that he could have killed Maithanet in some other place/time where it would have been far easier for him to do it and escape without having to count on Esmenet’s quick-thinking, but it had to happen in that manner. The assassination, IMO, was more about Esmenet seizing power than about Maithanet. He’s just collateral; Psatma didn’t even name him while fucking the WLW, she only included Kellhus, Esmi, Kelmomas, and Fanayal IIRC. As for him being in the right place at the right time, he needs to use those around him to make it happen--like Esmi for example. Yeah, exactly this. It's not the sequence of events to kill Maithanet, Maithanet dying in this fashion is part of the sequence of events that leads to the WLW killing Kellhus. Just like fighting the bandits or whoever they were, and getting a chip in the sword is. When fighting Kellhus the sword will break at that point in the chip, and the remaining part of the blade will continue the stroke and kill Kellhus because even his insane predictive powers can't see that coming. Just like WLW standing at just the right spot for Maitha to miss him. It's about walking the very narrow path that leads to the death of the Aspect Emperor. I'm still not convinced it actually comes to pass, I find the whole "No-God rises and the other Gods are blind to him so the WLW is seeing a faulty timeline" compelling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 Maybe. There's enough hinting that the whole concept that the dunyain are built on is hugely wrong. One theme we have seen is the concept of the faithless man claiming there are no gods when there are - the meaningless man in a world of meaning. It's not a far stretch to say that causality - the bedrock of that meaningless man - is not at all true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.