Six Pups in the Snow: A Direwolves Reread

[evita mgfs]

Martin opens Cat’s POV with Robb sitting in the front of the vessel:

“Robb sat in the bow with Grey Wind, his hand resting on his direwolf’s head” [785].

Martin closes with the northmen “bowing” their knees to the King in the North:

“He [the Greatjon] pointed at Robb with the blade. “There sits the only king I mean to bow my knee to m’lords,” he thundered.  “The King in the North!”

“And he knelt, and laid his longsword at her [Catelyn’s] feet” [796].

Martin deviates from “bend” the knee to “bow” in this instance, thereby framing the POV and punning the word “bow”.  In each case, Robb is out front and elevated symbolically and literally.

[julynnastarkfan]

On 9/1/2015 at 11:16 AM, Seams said:

 
Excellent and interesting points!
 
With regard to your point about Ramsay's treatment of Lady Hornwood and Theon's fingers, I agree that it is important to distinguish between "Finger lickin' good" (an advertising slogan in the U.S.) and "finger lickin' bad." You've perfectly described the difference, I suspect, by noting that Stannis and Robb/Grey Wind were upholding the law, while Ramsay appears to be just a psychopath who enjoys torturing people for his own entertainment.
 
Maybe it's worth considering Cersei in this context as well, as she eventually delivers her HANDmaid, Senelle, to Qyburn for torture experiments after Taena Merryweather tells Cersei that Senelle is a spy for Margaery. Speaking of Cersei, I was pondering some of your other insightful notes about this chapter:
 
 
 
 
Cersei made a big deal about wanting Robert to present her with Lady's pelt after the direwolf is put to death. (She wants it laid across her bed, as I recall, which raises another interesting set of symbols relating to Cersei's "bedwarmers".) Here is Catelyn, who is clearly intended to be compared to Cersei at various points in the books, threatening to take the pelt of her oldest child. We know that Catelyn cares about Robb, and that threatening to skin him is a figure of speech intended to emphasize the importance of looking after Bran. I think GRRM is symbolically showing here, though, that Robb is already now "the young wolf." He has a pelt and it would be a trophy that is worth having; worthy of a queen-mother. There is also a shared theme around protecting a child: Robb is charged with protecting Bran. Cersei wanted a direwolf punished for biting her child, the prince. We know that Nymeria was protecting the child Mycah at Arya's direction when she bit Joffrey. I don't know if the point is that direwolves are at risk if they DO protect chidren as well as when they fail to protect children? Or maybe part of GRRM's larger point about there being both justice and injustice in the world. (Of course, Nymeria does survive and Lady, the innocent bystander, does not. So maybe the point is that protecting children is the right thing to do and passively standing by puts you at risk?)
 
We also know that Ned wanted to make sure that Cersei did not get Lady's pelt or any part of her. As you describe, the direwolf's bones are delivered to Winterfell to be buried in the North, in a place of honor. The care taken to keep Lady's remains away from Cersei is important later, as we learn that Ned's bones have not yet returned to Winterfell (and never will, if Lady Dustin gets her way) and that Robb's body has had Grey Wind's head sewn to it. Was his body eventually thrown in the river, like Catelyn's, or do we not yet know where Robb's bones are? Maybe this is part of the point you made in your reply about the "reverence surrounding physical contact with a direwolf." The pelt and bones are important and have to be kept out of the wrong hands. Maybe that is the way that humans take back the direwolf magic that the direwolves can take (or transmit) by biting. (And I'm always thinking of the next tangent or connection - the skulls of the dragons in the crypts beneath King's Landing probably fit this thinking, too. Would Robert have been a more effective King if he had kept the skulls in the throne room instead of moving them out of sight?)
 
It seems as if the furs worn by the Karstarks really must be analyzed when they are so carefully mentioned in the same chapter with these other direwolf remains and with Robb's pelt. So many people wear furs and skins and pelts (and leather - not to mention wildlings wearing bones and skulls) that it's hard to single out the meaning of this kind of attire. Maybe this ties into that same just/unjust duality that applies to amputating fingers: Richard Karstark eventually breaks the law by killing two young Lannisters as revenge for Jaime Lannister slaying two of his sons in combat. King Robb notes that the Karstarks were killed "legally," during combat, while the Lannister boys were captives who were unjustly murdered. Alys Karstark seems like a sympathetic character, so far, and we don't know much about her brother, Harrion, except that he has changed sides after his father's execution. So maybe there are just people who wear furs as well as unjust. Maybe they are skinchangers, or maybe just wanna-be-skinchangers. Instead of Stark grey, the Karstarks wear black and white. The wiki notes that the Karstarks also wear black wool cloaks when they arrive at Winterfell, so they're not entirely dressed in furs. Maybe the Karstarks haven't sorted out how to walk the fine line between magic and non-magic; justice and injustice.

I associated Lady getting killed and Nymeria escaping with Sansa and Arya's plot lines, Sansa was very trusting and naive in the beginning, and Arya is more crafty and was able to escape. Maybe the Karstarks are closer to wildlings, not as civilized; which makes me think that they have their own ideas of justice, and are closer to magic than the Starks 

[Seams]

On 4/19/2016 at 4:09 PM, julynnastarkfan said:

I associated Lady getting killed and Nymeria escaping with Sansa and Arya's plot lines, Sansa was very trusting and naive in the beginning, and Arya is more crafty and was able to escape. Maybe the Karstarks are closer to wildlings, not as civilized; which makes me think that they have their own ideas of justice, and are closer to magic than the Starks 

I'm glad you pulled up this subject, julynnastarkfan. I've been thinking lately about Sansa's arc, and I think there's something very important about Ned having beheaded the direwolf Lady but making sure that her bones are sent back to Winterfell, but Ned's own bones being lost or hidden or diverted from making the same return home. Sansa has definitely changed since she left Winterfell AND since she left King's Landing AND since she left the Eyrie - big growth and experience at each stage.

So Sansa is alive, but "her" bones are dead and in the crypt; Ned is dead but his bones are not at rest. I can't quite put my (little)finger on it, but I've been pondering the Odysseus and Circe and Penelope relationship from ancient Greek mythology (for some aspects of Tyrion's story line) and I think there's also some connection between that ancient story and Ned's traveling bones that are hoping to get back home. Other people have pointed out elsewhere in the forum that Sansa is playing out the Persephone / Demeter story from ancient Greek mythology: the bones in the crypt would reflect that story as well, with the half-underground and half above-ground represented by Lady's bones and Sansa herself. Or maybe Sansa spends some time above ground (in a castle) and some time below ground (on a ship or at Littlefinger's home on the rocky land of The Fingers or at the Gates of the Moon), and each cycle causes her to grow and change.

Arya is more like Odysseus, out traveling and having adventures.

I'm still not sure what to think about the Karstarks. I don't think they're closer to wildlings than the Starks are - certainly not closer than Jon Snow is. Alys Karstark is now in the process of becoming closer to the wildlings, marrying one of them, but this was over the objections of her living family members. But, who knows? You might have a good point. Animal skin attire might be a good hint in that direction.

 

[julynnastarkfan]

I was thinking closer to wildings due to there harsher living conditions, and they aren't as "gentile" for lack of a better word at this time, as the Starks, who have always been the Wardens and/or Kings of the North. The other reason I made the comment is because it seems that Robb and Sansa don't have as deep of a connection with their dire wolves, but Arya, and Bran who resemble the Starks are deeply connected. Rickon has the Tully resemblance but he is so young that he is able I think the develop the deep connection. Jon, of course, is the most important character and the hero. I thought when I first read the Game of Thrones that the story is about the Starks, with all the other characters, including Dany, as important but not the main characters in the story.

[The Wolves]

On April 21, 2016 at 2:32 PM, julynnastarkfan said:

I was thinking closer to wildings due to there harsher living conditions, and they aren't as "gentile" for lack of a better word at this time, as the Starks, who have always been the Wardens and/or Kings of the North. The other reason I made the comment is because it seems that Robb and Sansa don't have as deep of a connection with their dire wolves, but Arya, and Bran who resemble the Starks are deeply connected. Rickon has the Tully resemblance but he is so young that he is able I think the develop the deep connection. Jon, of course, is the most important character and the hero. I thought when I first read the Game of Thrones that the story is about the Starks, with all the other characters, including Dany, as important but not the main characters in the story.

Bran looks like a Tully. 

[Duke-of-Kaisa]

Hello Everyone!

I have not been on this forum for over a year but I remember reading the first analysis when this thread first started. I always meant to comment and contribute to this thread but life got in the way and I have only just looked back here and read through the 14 pages of posts and comments. I love that this thread seems to be very open to peoples thoughts and ideas without nastiness. I originally joined this forum as I was of the firm belief in R&L=J from my first reading of the series, so I went searching the net to see if others had the same belief. Lol. Well I realised I was far from the only one with that belief! :-D

Well done to all contributors, there are some great insights into the connections between the Stark Direwolf puppies and their wargs, as well as other related characters and foreshadowing to be found in this thread. This made for thought provoking reading! As someone who has read through the complete series (1-5) twice (2014 and again in 2015) I suddenly had quite a few more thoughts come to mind whilst reading through this thread. Thankyou again. 

A few things that came to mind whilst reading through this thread I thought I'd add, of course I am very rusty as I haven't actually read the books since about May last year, and right now I haven't got time to look up passages etc. I just wanted to put accross a couple of generalised observations I made on my first and second reading of this series...

Firstly I just thought I'd say that on the naming of Jon snow - on my first reading of A Game of Thrones, the image I conjoured up in my head of Jon Snow was one of a slender, quick WHITE haired character. Yes I guess it's all about 'bastard' name Snow that had me thinking white. Plus of course he took after the Starks who were northern and the north is cold and frosty. His half brother Robb taking after his auburn haired river lands (sort of Southern) mothers side of the family.  So when he got the WHITE direwolf, well it completely made sense to me! He is Jon 'Snow' of course he gets the snow coloured direwolf! Lol. It didn't take much more reading before I connected the dots about his RLJ parentage, so then I also thought - that explains the red eyes of the wolf and is another 'proof' he is a Targ in wolf clothes. The red eyes being associated with the blood of the dragon and of course the Targaryen's often having white hair... The direwolf being named 'Ghost' made me think the ghost of Christmas past. Ghost of the past walking in the present with the sun and moon casting shadows... I got quite a shock when I first watched the HBO series after completing the books and saw Jon Snow with dark hair. I literally had to go back and check the books as it seemed so far from my own image I'd built in my head of him.  Of course, yes, he DOES have the dark look of the Starks, it was just that name that caught me, and of course his white direwolf and later the idea of him being a Targaryen. Now, I realised only after reading this thread, just why his name might immediately make me think 'white' hair - because I was thinking Jack Frost! Yes Jon Snow/Jack Frost. A Wikipedia search on Jack Frost revealed many differing versions of stories and poems about Jack Frost. A character both portrayed as good, bad and in between. Reading a little more about these stories made me wonder if GRRM may have drawn a little inspiration from these Jack Frost tales? :-D

The conversation about Smiler / Slayer also made me think immediately of Tyrion/Jaime. I noticed no one else had mentioned them. Of course who would make the better lord? Interesting being as Tyrion has developed a good relationship with Jon (in combination with his 'fool' antics) he can be seen as a smiler, but I think he is turning more dark as the series progresses, becomming more of a slayer. Jaime is the famed slayer who is also known as a smiler. Of course his path is moving more towards the light and he has lost his sword arm, so perhaps he is veering away from the slayer aspect? Jon has not yet had direct dealings with Jaime but I think he will, I wonder how Ghost will respond to him? 

Another interesting conversation I read on this thread was about the finding of the direwolves and Theon being there. He was also there when Bran was surrounded by wildlings and held at knifepoint. Him being the one to save Bran in this case and also in the way he let Bran and Rickon disappear by allowing Reek (Ramsay) to flay the millers boys (in a way saving Bran and Rickon from an uncertain fate at the hands of the Bolton's and the Iron Islanders) also bears significance in the story. So what was the significance of him being there when they found the direwolves? I found it interesting that some would say he was meant to have one but rejected them so was denied one. The 'huntsman' that he resembles combined with the hunters being hunted lines that were discussed in this thread really got me thinking. So the stags horn (antler) pierced the mother direwolf who died after giving birth to her cubs. The hunter (eventually) killed by the hunted. Now what would happen if a fawn was raised by a direwolf? Would it then become a hunter? Could Theon with his roguish womanising ways and lanky black hair who's mother (a fishermans wife) went mad and left his father to run away to her family when he was taken away after the rebellion to be raised by an honourable wolf possibly be a stags get ( a stag who also loves hunting?) turned into a huntsman by his foster family? A hunter who although proud and arrogant feels for his foster family and let's the hunted get away. (Thereby being the stag who killed the mother wolf allowing the pups to live?)  Lol. Poor mixed up Theon! Or maybe he really was a direwolfs bastard (Theon wonders if he should have been a direwolf - in a way he becomes a dog instead) of a direwolf who  ran to the wall with his tail between his legs? Perhaps it was because of this stags/direwolfs get under the proud Krakens nose that caused the rebellion?  Theon does think about Tywin's offer to go to the wall, after all, he could rise high there and maybe even become first ranger (like his father perhaps) ... Lol. So many possibilities.  A re-read is in order for me I think to work out timelines of the varying stories of fishermans wife and other things. As an aside, I always thought of Theon as the tramp in the Disney movie Lady and the Tramp when he wonders if he will one day be allowed to marry Sansa. Lol. :-D

I also thought it odd the way Mormont comments that he would never have thought Gared a deserter. Now Mormont knows his men. Rangers have been disappearing thick and fast. I really wonder whether Gared's beheading and the positioning of the direwolf and pups was something Mormont (perhaps with the knowledge if his raven) actually knew about/had something to do with?) Also could Benjen being at Winterfell for the kings feast and also his regular visits be to keep an eye on both Jon and also Theon? Maybe Benjen was angry that Theon didn't get a direwolf (if Theon is a stark (his?) bastard) and went to have words with Bloodraven or whoever sent the direwolves?) lol.  Perhaps Mormont and Benjen knew a lot more about what was going on than we are aware... Coldhands claims to be Bran's monster. He rides a stag. Could it be the stag that killed the mother direwolf? We know Bran will learn to use the weir net to see into the past, perhaps he learns how to change things and it is his future self that sent the direwolves?

Shaggy dogs name has been discussed in detail on this thread. I'd like to add I always thought of Shaggydog and by extension Rickon as the 'black sheep' of the family. Sheep/shaggy. Black sheep of a family are usually the member who is seen as different/lost/bad/misunderstood. Perhaps the colours direwolves represent the good, the bad and the in between aspects of the Stark personality. The white/grey/black. Maybe Jon will be the hero, Rickon the villain and all the others the in betweeners, the grey characters. Good and bad. Or not. Maybe Rickon will just be like the blackfish. :-D

Also not sure what relevance it bears but it's interesting that Rickon is on Skagos (where there are reputed to be goat like unicorns) with Shaggydog. Shagga (of a vale mountain clan) likes to cut off peoples cocks and feed it to the goats... What will Rickon get up to I wonder? I long way ahead of this reread of course, but I was reading here about Tyrion's shadow cat cloak, and it made me think about that! :-D By the way who thinks Tyrion might have lost his shadow cat cloak to gain a lovely lion skin pelt off Dany perhaps? Sorry not quite direwolf related...

I have so many other ideas related to conversations and analysis from this thread. Unfortunately with 3 kids and a 7 month old baby I have little time right now to do a re-read and even write the rest of this response. But thanks all for giving me so many crazy ideas. I look forward to continuing to follow this thread - I really love reading about the direwolves and thinking about their overall significance and the Stark kids warging abilities and skin changing/warging generally. When I have time I'd love to join the conversation properly and refresh my mind with complete re-read of the series. It has been a year since my last read now! :-D

Please don't tear into me too much. The thoughts were comming too fast. 

 

[Julia H.]

On 2016. 06. 10. at 6:09 AM, Duke-of-Kaisa said:

<snip>

 

Welcome to the discussion and I'm glad you like this thread.  

Jon and the colour white: The connection is interesting, because - as he says - black has always been his colour. While his name suggests the whitest possible white, he has dark hair and dark eyes. In a way Ghost seems to complement Jon's darkness with his own whiteness - Jon and his "white shadow". White is also the second Stark colour. The sigil of House Stark is a grey direwolf running across a field of snow. To me it implies that Stark and Snow complement each other. Ghost also calls attention to the difference between the white knights of the Kingsguard and the black "knights" of the Night's Watch. In which organization can you find truer "knights" and purer intentions? Ghost can also be seen as Jon's personal, white-clad Kingsguard.

Shaggydog's black colour is another intriguing contrast, but it's hard to say what it means at this point. Grey and white are Stark colours, black is not. Black is also the opposite of white. But grey (the main Stark colour) is a mixture of black and white, so I don't think we necessarily have to think of antagonism. Or Rickon might indeed be the "black sheep" or even the "dark horse"  of the family.  

It seems we have more or less finished the systematic discussion of direwolf references in AGoT. (Of course, further posts are always welcome.) Watch out for the - soon-to-come - new thread that will discuss direwolves in A Clash of Kings. 

[Eiko Dragonhorn]

White is actually the primary Stark color, just as black is the primary Targaryen color and crimson is the primary Lannister color. These are the colors that form the majority of their house cloaks and their letter sealing wax.

[Julia H.]

3 hours ago, Eiko Dragonhorn said:

White is actually the primary Stark color, just as black is the primary Targaryen color and crimson is the primary Lannister color. These are the colors that form the majority of their house cloaks and their letter sealing wax.

Hm... That makes Ghost's colour even more interesting, especially in comparison with the grey of the other direwolves.  

The white and the crimson make a lot of sense with reference to the Wars of the Roses as well as with reference to Ice and Fire. 

Shaggydog remains a mystery. Oh, well...

[Duke-of-Kaisa]

Thanks Julia H for the welcome! I will look forward to joining you on the new thread! :-D 

 Sorry I still seem unable to quote/reply on here... :-(

[Julia H.]

The new direwolves thread discussing direwolves in ACoK has started and you can find it here. Come and join us, everyone is invited! 

 

[CaliWolf]

On 7/5/2016 at 1:13 AM, Julia H. said:

Welcome to the discussion and I'm glad you like this thread.  

Jon and the colour white: The connection is interesting, because - as he says - black has always been his colour. While his name suggests the whitest possible white, he has dark hair and dark eyes. In a way Ghost seems to complement Jon's darkness with his own whiteness - Jon and his "white shadow". White is also the second Stark colour. The sigil of House Stark is a grey direwolf running across a field of snow. To me it implies that Stark and Snow complement each other. Ghost also calls attention to the difference between the white knights of the Kingsguard and the black "knights" of the Night's Watch. In which organization can you find truer "knights" and purer intentions? Ghost can also be seen as Jon's personal, white-clad Kingsguard.

Shaggydog's black colour is another intriguing contrast, but it's hard to say what it means at this point. Grey and white are Stark colours, black is not. Black is also the opposite of white. But grey (the main Stark colour) is a mixture of black and white, so I don't think we necessarily have to think of antagonism. Or Rickon might indeed be the "black sheep" or even the "dark horse"  of the family.  

It seems we have more or less finished the systematic discussion of direwolf references in AGoT. (Of course, further posts are always welcome.) Watch out for the - soon-to-come - new thread that will discuss direwolves in A Clash of Kings. 

The sigil of House Stark is a grey direwolf on a field of white. However, he is a bastard which means for him, the colors are reversed. So his sigil would be a White direwolf on a field of grey. This is why I think Ghost is white. I also think Grey is a color representative of the north in general. It is symbolic that the Gods meant for him to have a direwolf even if he is a bastard. It is interesting though because I believe this would show that each of the Stark children were not only meant to have a direwolf, but were meant to have a specific one with specific traits. As for Ghost's eyes being red, Albino's have red eyes due to the lack of pigment, so what you see is their blood. So any description of what Ghost's eyes look like can be used to say what runs through Jon's blood/body/beliefs, like the fact that Ghost's eyes look like wierwood trees; You could then say Jon's believes in the Old Gods. Also the very name of Ghost  implies that Jon is not gone. After he dies, he won't truly be gone. Like a Ghost, he will still be present after death.