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Reasons why Lightbringer is NOT a literal sword


Mithras

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TSTMTW does not appear as a savior figure against the darkness/LN as the LH and AA seem to be. There is also a prophecy of the Ghiscari of which we know nothing about (GG said that the marriage of the dragon and the harpy is the fulfillment of an ancient prophecy). So, local legends exist but there is an undeniable resemblance between AA and the LH. In fact from what we know, TPTWP is also related to AAR/Lightbringer but we do not know to which culture it belongs. Perhaps it is a Valyrian/Targaryen thing.


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TSTMTW does not appear as a savior figure against the darkness/LN as the LH and AA seem to be. There is also a prophecy of the Ghiscari of which we know nothing about (GG said that the marriage of the dragon and the harpy is the fulfillment of an ancient prophecy). So, local legends exist but there is an undeniable resemblance between AA and the LH. In fact from what we know, TPTWP is also related to AAR/Lightbringer but we do not know to which culture it belongs. Perhaps it is a Valyrian/Targaryen thing.

But the StMtW is also about a "prince that was promised," for gods sake. It is about some promised prince guy who defeats pretenders, unites the realm and leads them to the "end of the earth," which has been REPEATEDLY how the Wall is described.

ETA: as a reminder, "light conquering darkness" is a repeated trope throughout the story to cover everything from how slavery is described to the the Citadel's bringing light in the dark of ignorance.

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TSTMTW does not appear as a savior figure against the darkness/LN as the LH and AA seem to be. There is also a prophecy of the Ghiscari of which we know nothing about (GG said that the marriage of the dragon and the harpy is the fulfillment of an ancient prophecy). So, local legends exist but there is an undeniable resemblance between AA and the LH. In fact from what we know, TPTWP is also related to AAR/Lightbringer but we do not know to which culture it belongs. Perhaps it is a Valyrian/Targaryen thing.

It's a savior figure to its specific culture. And there is a resemblance between all three: the promised hero who comes to save their people. It's like Butterbumps! keeps saying, it's an archetype that exists in many cultures. I'm sure if we went to Sothoros we'd hear about some savior figure too.

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TSTMTW is not a savior figure. On the contrary, it is supposed to conquer/subjugate all the people. He is supposed to fight people who lives in stone tents and have wives that weep for their husbands. End of the earth is Narrow Sea according to the Dothraki because they never crossed the sea as a khalassar. That prophecy will be fulfilled when Dany's khalassar conquers Pentos. I don't think Dany will bring a Dothraki horde to Westeros.


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TSTMTW is not a savior figure. On the contrary, it is supposed to conquer/subjugate all the people. He is supposed to fight people who lives in stone tents and have wives that weep for their husbands. End of the earth is Narrow Sea according to the Dothraki because they never crossed the sea as a khalassar. That prophecy will be fulfilled when Dany's khalassar conquers Pentos. I don't think Dany will bring a Dothraki horde to Westeros.

To the Dothraki, TSTMTW is. You keep leaving that part out. AAR is a hero to the Red Religion, TPTWP is a hero to the Targs/Valyria, the LH seems to have ties to the North. TSTMTW is the savior/hero to the Dothraki. His prophecy is exactly what they would expect from their "King of Kings." You're taking the myth out of its culture.

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TSTMTW is not a savior figure. On the contrary, it is supposed to conquer/subjugate all the people. He is supposed to fight people who lives in stone tents and have wives that weep for their husbands. End of the earth is Narrow Sea according to the Dothraki because they never crossed the sea as a khalassar. That prophecy will be fulfilled when Dany's khalassar conquers Pentos. I don't think Dany will bring a Dothraki horde to Westeros.

So we're supposed to take the Dothraki context into how they're defining this guy, and understand that these attributes he's given have meaning and play up those differences for discussion, but we're not supposed to do this for AA, because AA is super universal, just because.

And the way you are saying that the StMtW looks like a villain figure is pretty much exactly what anyone outside of any culture would say about the culture's idea of a hero/ savior.

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It's a savior figure to its specific culture. And there is a resemblance between all three: the promised hero who comes to save their people. It's like Butterbumps! keeps saying, it's an archetype that exists in many cultures. I'm sure if we went to Sothoros we'd hear about some savior figure too.

Im sure you wouldnt hear of a savior on a continent where everybodys slowly dying on the insides

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To the Dothraki, TSTMTW is. You keep leaving that part out. AAR is a hero to the Red Religion, TPTWP is a hero to the Targs/Valyria, the LH seems to have ties to the North. TSTMTW is the savior/hero to the Dothraki. His prophecy is exactly what they would expect from their "King of Kings." You're taking the myth out of its culture.

^This.

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Im sure you wouldnt hear of a savior on a continent where everybodys slowly dying on the insides

Really? Not even a savior figure who was a great healer, a hero who came with a magical cure to heal whatever ails them?

ETA: consider some of the miracles Jesus performs in the Christian mythos: healing. I'm sure Sothoros has their own savior figure.

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AA and the LH saved mankind from an apocalyptic event. Where in the earth the things expected from TSTMTW can be called as saving? Where is the apocalyptic event? TSTMTW is all about rape and plunder. It is like Drogo magnified at least 10x. If we had a single piece of evidence suggesting that the riders of TSTMTW are supposed to cut those ghost grass that will one day cover the entire world (which is a similar apocalyptic event in Dothraki mythology), then I could accept TSTMTW as a savior figure "in spite of everything".


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AA and the LH saved mankind from an apocalyptic event. Where in the earth the things expected from TSTMTW can be called as saving? Where is the apocalyptic event? TSTMTW is all about rape and plunder. It is like Drogo magnified at least 10x. If we had a single piece of evidence suggesting that the riders of TSTMTW are supposed to cut those ghost grass that will one day cover the entire world (which is a similar apocalyptic event in Dothraki mythology), then I could accept TSTMTW as a savior figure "in spite of everything".

We don't know that AA and the Last Hero "saved mankind" from the same type of darkness or that AA pertains to something apocalyptic. And the Red who await AA's coming literally see the entire world as one big battle between "dark" and "light," literally and figuratively. Their goal is to literally eradicate all literal darkness, death and cold from the world.

tStMtW is NOT about rape and plunder. It is a story of a "prince" who will come and unite a realm of men, leading them to the "end of the world." This is universal, in the same way that AA's mythos has a seed of universality to it in terms of conquering a "darkness."

If you are insisting on dismissing tStMtW as a tale of rape and plunder because it's the (expected) meaning the Dothraki have attributed to their idea of "savior," then you cannot keep pretending that what the priests of the Red religion say about their own prophesied hero doesn't apply with a straight face.

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If the historical Last Hero had a sword, it may have been Dawn. The 'Lightbringer' connection between Dawn and the Sword of the Morning is way too obvious to be ignored.



Dragonsteel then would have been the same steel as Valyrian steel created through the same magic the Valyrians later used, but not called Valyrian steel because there was no Valyria at this point.



But it is just as likely that the historical sword of the Last Hero was pretty unimportant, just a stronger version of the obsidian weapons they already used against the Others. However, considering that Valyrian steel was lost with Valyria and its dragons, it is very likely that dragon fire is an important ingredient for Valyrian steel - which would also be a nod to the name 'dragonsteel' (which suggests that dragons are involved in its making).



Thus it is very likely to assume that dragons played a crucial/important role during the War for the Dawn, but that piece of knowledge had been lost since. GRRM obviously had people forget that, since it would be way too telling what's going to happen later on with Dany's dragons.



The idea that the legends about historical Azor Ahai have any credibility whatsoever has yet to be proven. Nothing suggests that the cultures and traditions of the East have a real picture of the events that transpired in Westeros. Nor is any reason given why the hell they should believe that the Long Night and the nearly endless winter should have originated in Westeros?


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I agree that it's not a literal sword. Nothing in the Lightbringer myth (the way it is forged) is even remotely possible. We can conclude that either part or all of the story is symbolic. I suspect all of it is.

I would say that ice zombies and "Others" are not remotely possible either, but they exist in universe as a real and literal thing. They aren't symbolic. When we're dealing with magic, the stuff that's not remotely possible can become possible.

I agree that it's possible that LB isn't a literal sword, but if that's the case, I don't think it's because "it's not remotely possible" but because of the nature of stories and how they change over time and retellings.

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I agree that it's not a literal sword. Nothing in the Lightbringer myth (the way it is forged) is even remotely possible. We can conclude that either part or all of the story is symbolic. I suspect all of it is.

Fantasy:

The faculty or activity of imagining things, especially things that are impossible or improbable.

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So we're supposed to take the Dothraki context into how they're defining this guy, and understand that these attributes he's given have meaning and play up those differences for discussion, but we're not supposed to do this for AA, because AA is super universal, just because.

And the way you are saying that the StMtW looks like a villain figure is pretty much exactly what anyone outside of any culture would say about the culture's idea of a hero/ savior.

This!!! And then some :bowdown:

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It's not possible in the framework of this world, I mean. It doesn't really fit the story's mixture of fantasy elements and realism.

Show me the rules and limitations of magic in this world that Martin has created. Because as far as I know, there are none.

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