Jump to content

Reasons why Lightbringer is NOT a literal sword


Mithras

Recommended Posts

So you claim that Jorah's account is true whereas the crones of the VD (ultimate authority among the Dothraki) talked garbage during the ceremony?

No. I think Jorah is repeating the prophecy he has heard, free of any interpretation. The Crones are giving their interpretation of the prophecy based on their cultural understanding of what TSTMTW is supposed to do. It's not garbage; it's how they've interpreted what the prophecy originally states--and none of the accounts say rape and plunder, like Butterbumps! keeps pointing out.

ETA are you saying that we need to ignore everything the Red Priests are saying about their savior and religion, but we need to believe completely what the Crones say about their own savior hero? Does this not seem contradictory to you??

Link to comment
Share on other sites

· George does not like his prophecies (especially the central ones) to be too literal or too easy.

· Within only 150 years, many people came to believe that Baelor the Blessed jumped into a pit of vipers to save his brother from captivity and since he was so holy, the snakes did not bite him. The reality is that “pit of vipers” was a metaphor for Dorne but people liked the other tale better. Imagine what would happen to a prophecy of at least 5000 years old.

· At this point of the story, it does not make sense for a person to come up with a magical sword to save the mankind. That is not the nature of the current crisis Westeros faces.

· Obsidian is already proved to be deadly against the Others. Fire and steel work fine for the wights. Why should people need an extra magical sword (however cool that is) to turn the tide of the battle?

· The description of what the Lightbringer did to the beast according to Jade Compendium suspiciously fits well to the descriptions of how dragonfire kills men and animals in several cases.

Reasons why LB is a literal sword:

- Some prophecies are meant to be literal or have literal parts. For example Maggy the Frog is quite literal, TSWMTW is literal, for all we know the LH and AAR are literal etc. Most prophecies haven't come true to see if they are literal or not. Also, AAR is not an easy prophecy in any case, whether the sword is literal or not.

- We don't know that for a fact, it may as well have been a pit, but either way this is indication of nothing. We know that most prophecies have metaphorical parts but that isn't useful to determine whether or not the sword part of the prophecy is a metaphor or not.

- Why would AA kill his wife with a dragon or with the night's watch or with whatever else supposedly is LB? A magical sword has reasons to need a loved-one's blood, a dragon or an institution has none.

- Bonus 4th point: other prophecies are written in such a way that you instantly think they are metaphorical, otherwise they would make no sense, while in this prophecy nothing points to the sword being metaphorical. The prophecy talks about forging a sword and failing two times, it mentions details about forging (plunging it in water) and it specifically speaks of a sword. If it would speak of a non-specific weapon for example then it would point to it being something else other than a material object.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If someone simply plunged a newly made sword into their lover's chest and it became magical, you would think that George had jumped the shark, and it would be terrible writing. It just doesn't work.

To me, the two most likely interpretations are:

1) Lightbringer is a literal sword of some sort, but the story has become exaggerated over the years and "legendary" in nature.

2) Lightbringer is not a literal sword, and the story is metaphorical.

3) The story is true and the sword is quite magical, but the actual true "cause and effect" have been lost over the year.s

1 & 2 seem most likely to me, but -- given he author's love of symbolism -- I tend to favor 2.

I'm not on the 'literal sword' train, but this seems a little strange in light of what exists in the story. We we see or hear about blood magic several times, we see a dude light a sword on fire by using his blood, we see a lady make a sword glow. If making a magical sword using blood is jumping the shark, GRRM did several times over already.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can you just take a step back and explain why we should ignore what the Reds believe about their own messiah, but not the StMtW?

Because the Reds (by which you mean Benerro and his followers - there are other red temples in other Free Cities with unknown affinity to accept Dany as the messiah) present overreaching and BS interpretations from the bits of actual wording of the prophecies that we know from Mel's accounts. Benerro does it for his own political agenda. Mel also produces her own interpretations which are equally wrong.

I take the wording of the crones as the actual wording of the Dothraki prophecy. Note that I also ignore some parts of what their words seemingly suggest because for me Drogon is TSTMTW whereas they expect a boy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Will someone please quote the text that equates a dragon with a flaming sword? Because I don't remember that.

"When your dragons were small they were a wonder. Grown, they are death and devastation, a flaming sword above the world." from ADwD.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maester Aemon never questions the fact that it's a literal sword, though I wonder. He names Mel's "AA vs the darkness" spiel as "the war for the dawn", & for the first time, introduces us to "the prince that was promised".

All of which begs the question of why he & Rhaegar never seemed overly concerned w Lightbringer, or the War for The Dawn. Why was this? A flaming, mythical, magical sword would be pretty useful when fighting a rebellion, no? And that's just the practical reason for them to pursue it, let alone the prophetical connotations. And what did the duo think The War For the Dawn was?

Aemon knows Stannis' sword isn't Lightbringer. There's a sword in Irish myth that burns so hot it chars the scabbard. I forget whose sword it is, though.

I'm not convinced it's a literal sword, but if it is, it's either Dawn or Oathkeeper (Ice). I wondered about Beric's sword but obviously I was wrong about that.

As an aside, Lightbringer is another word for Lucifer, which is another word for the planet Venus.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Reasons why LB is a literal sword:

- Some prophecies are meant to be literal or have literal parts. For example Maggy the Frog is quite literal, TSWMTW is literal, for all we know the LH and AAR are literal etc. Most prophecies haven't come true to see if they are literal or not. Also, AAR is not an easy prophecy in any case, whether the sword is literal or not.

I don't think we can compare a prophecy about the fate of the world which is at least 5k years old with the words of a fortuneteller about a mad bitch.

- We don't know that for a fact, it may as well have been a pit, but either way this is indication of nothing. We know that most prophecies have metaphorical parts but that isn't useful to determine whether or not the sword part of the prophecy is a metaphor or not.

I think we are supposed to determine the real and metaphorical parts of the prophecies; otherwise, that treacherous bitch bites the pricks of us all.

- Why would AA kill his wife with a dragon or with the night's watch or with whatever else supposedly is LB? A magical sword has reasons to need a loved-one's blood, a dragon or an institution has none.

Perhaps similar to how Rhaegar "killed" Lyanna with a dragon (Jon)?

Hatching of the dragons required some serious blood magic so there is definitely a need for blood in that case too.

- Bonus 4th point: other prophecies are written in such a way that you instantly think they are metaphorical, otherwise they would make no sense, while in this prophecy nothing points to the sword being metaphorical. The prophecy talks about forging a sword and failing two times, it mentions details about forging (plunging it in water) and it specifically speaks of a sword. If it would speak of a non-specific weapon for example then it would point to it being something else other than a material object.

The forging of the LB is never attributed to the incarnation of AA which is called AAR. As discussed in this thread, all AAR is supposed to do is to clasp the burning sword that was drawn form fire and that sword will be the LB. In addition, AAR is also supposed to wake dragons from stone.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Aemon knows Stannis' sword isn't Lightbringer. There's a sword in Irish myth that burns so hot it chars the scabbard. I forget whose sword it is, though.

I'm not convinced it's a literal sword, but if it is, it's either Dawn or Oathkeeper (Ice). I wondered about Beric's sword but obviously I was wrong about that.

As an aside, Lightbringer is another word for Lucifer, which is another word for the planet Venus.

Was trying to edit my post to add that in Norse myth, Sutr wields a sword that sets the world on fire.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Because the Reds (by which you mean Benerro and his followers - there are other red temples in other Free Cities with unknown affinity to accept Dany as the messiah) present overreaching and BS interpretations from the bits of actual wording of the prophecies that we know from Mel's accounts. Benerro does it for his own political agenda. Mel also produces her own interpretations which are equally wrong.

I take the wording of the crones as the actual wording of the Dothraki prophecy. Note that I also ignore some parts of what their words seemingly suggest because for me Drogon is TSTMTW whereas they expect a boy.

Does this explanation honestly make sense to you?

Is your point that only things that are literally part of explicit prophesies have meaning as it pertains to what prophesied heroes are supposed to do?

If so, where the hell are you getting the idea that Azor Ahai is a hero or supposed to fight darkness, or is part of an apocalypse?

Here are the actual prophesies for AAR (Mel says the same thing multiple times across 3 books):

When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone.

It is written in prophecy as well. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone.

So that one says nothing about AA fighting darkness, let alone the Others. If we want to get super technical with this, it tells us that AA comes in a time of darkness to wake dragons out of stone. Maybe he's the darkness.

here's more:

“In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him.”

In [stannis] the prophecies are fulfilled. The red comet blazed across the sky to herald his coming, and he bears Lightbringer, the red sword of heroes.”

Look at that. We still don't get a prophesy that says AA will fight the darkness, let alone the Others (this tells us the darkness just flees before him). It again just says he emerges in a time of darkness. Beyond simply existing in a time of darkness and waking dragons from stone/ drawing Lightbringer from the flames, the prophesies don't tell us what AA is supposed to do at all.

The point being, AA is utterly pointless without looking at what the people who believe he's a savior believe he's supposed to do. Which you seem to understand as it pertains to the StMtW, yet not for AA for some reason.

ETA: Take a look at the context Mel uses "prince that was promised" in:

“The sand is running through the glass more quickly now, and man’s hour on earth is almost done. We must act boldly, or all hope is lost. Westeros must unite beneath her one true king, the prince that was promised, Lord of Dragonstone and chosen of R’hllor.”

Kind of sounds a lot like this call for unity, no?

“As swift as the wind he rides, and behind him his khalasar covers the earth, men without number, with arakhs shining in their hands like blades of razor grass. Fierce as a storm this princewill be. His enemies will tremble before him, and their wives will weep tears of blood and rend their flesh in grief. The bells in his hair will sing his coming, and the milk men in the stone tents will fear his name.”

......

“The stallion is the khal of khals promised in ancient prophecy, child. He will unite the Dothraki into a single khalasar and ride to the ends of the earth, or so it was promised. All the people of the world will be his herd.”

To be more transparent here, Mel is talking up the prince that was promised thing to emphasize the importance of political unity under Stannis, and she's trying to convince him to burn Edric in order to produce a dragon to accomplish the goal of conquest for the sake of that unity, which ostensibly is needed to prevent what she considers the end of the world.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Because the Reds (by which you mean Benerro and his followers - there are other red temples in other Free Cities with unknown affinity to accept Dany as the messiah) present overreaching and BS interpretations from the bits of actual wording of the prophecies that we know from Mel's accounts. Benerro does it for his own political agenda. Mel also produces her own interpretations which are equally wrong.

I take the wording of the crones as the actual wording of the Dothraki prophecy. Note that I also ignore some parts of what their words seemingly suggest because for me Drogon is TSTMTW whereas they expect a boy.

I want to come back to this because I just realized why it bothers me.

You think Drogon is TSTMTW? Ok, fine. I've seen that before and I guess it's not "out there" in terms of theoretical possibility.

But two things that are bothering me

1) Drogon will lead "his people" to rape and plunder? And never get to Westeros?

2) You have argued, many many many times, that Jon is getting Drogon--either by taking him from Dany or by Drogon recognizing that Jon is his true rider and forsaking Dany.

In this thread you seem to be suggesting that AAR = The LH and that Jon = AAR who also thereby = The LH. And I think you believe that Jon is TPTWP (which I agree with, so don't think this is an attack on you). But do you see how heavy this is? Jon is now AAR, TPTWP, the LH, and he rides TSTMTW into battle against the Evil Others. And apparently a Dragon is also LB (and I assume by this you mean Drogon since you also follow R+L = LB, with LB being a Jon-warged Drogon). It's so Jon top heavy that I'm a bit baffled. So either I've misinterpreted you somewhere, in which case correct me and I apologize, or you really think that Jon is going to be the end all be all of this series which seems unfair not only to the other characters in the series but also to GRRM himself who doesn't believe in one person being the sole hero of everything.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In this thread you seem to be suggesting that AAR = The LH and that Jon = AAR who also thereby = The LH. And I think you believe that Jon is TPTWP (which I agree with, so don't think this is an attack on you). But do you see how heavy this is? Jon is now AAR, TPTWP, the LH, and he rides TSTMTW into battle against the Evil Others. And apparently a Dragon is also LB (and I assume by this you mean Drogon since you also follow R+L = LB, with LB being a Jon-warged Drogon). It's so Jon top heavy that I'm a bit baffled. So either I've misinterpreted you somewhere, in which case correct me and I apologize, or you really think that Jon is going to be the end all be all of this series which seems unfair not only to the other characters in the series but also to GRRM himself who doesn't believe in one person being the sole hero of everything.

Yea, this is the concern I have as well-- that the calculus that's gone into what parameters we can even include when defining these figures seem a bit purposely stacked in favor of Jon Snow and his ultimate goodness.

But to answer the question set forth by OP-- is Lightbringer a literal sword-- no, most likely not.

"Lightbringer" isn't even in the prophesies of Azor Ahai Reborn. It's from the original AA legend (told to us by Saan, Mel and the Jade Compendium), and even then it sounds a lot more like a dragon when you look at Rhaego's death and the adjacent legends about how dragons are made. Mel talks about Lightbringer wrt Stannis. But it's not in the prophesies about AAR. The prophesies of AAR-- as per Mel, Aemon, Benerro and Marwyn-- speak of a bleeding star/ stars, gathering darkness, and waking stone dragons. Mel kicks up a fuss about Lightbringer for a very obvious reason-- it's a hell of a lot easier to fake a glowing sword than it is to fake dragons. It's basically a con. She's playing fast and loose with what's in the actual prophesy versus the original legend because it suits her purpose. If you can't fake the thing this Reborn hero is supposed to wield, fake the easier thing he's alleged to have in the legend.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think Ligthbringer is metaphorical and it’s a name for the three dragons. Because of the well known: «The dragon has three heads.»

Lightbringer can be three: A three-headed dragon.
Rhaegar wanted three babies. Viserys told Daenerys she should have born earlier.
If we add the notion of the no-gender of the words used in the language of the prophecy we can have three male or female dragons, prince or princess = AAR.

If we take the texts of the prophecy given by Melisandre, we can see that in the first text (ACoK) she mentions Lightbringer, The red sword of heroes. But the second time (ASoS) she talks about the dragons instead.


«"In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him."»
(ACoK, 10, Davos I)


«It is written in prophecy as well. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone.»
(ASoS, 25, Davos III)


«"The dragon has three heads," Dany said when they were on the final flight. "My marriage need not be the end of all your hopes. I know why you are here."
"For you," said Quentyn, all awkward gallantry. "No," said Dany. "For fire and blood."»

(ADwD, 50, Daenerys VIII)

[ETA: Quentyn was playing the warrior half of the book and when he started to play the hero and tried to clasp Lightbringer he perished because history lessons doesn’t matter, It seems to take something else: it takes to be a true dragon. (I guess)]

«The Targaryen banner is a three-headed dragon, red on black, the three heads representing Aegon and his sisters. The Targaryen words are Fire and Blood.»

(ADwD Appendix)

In the end of the scene when Viserion flew to Brown Ben Plumm (I think a wink to point to Jaime riding Viserion because of his drop of Targaryen blood and that’s why we get a Jaime chapter in ADwD) Dany was talking to Drogon and thought: «The dragon has three heads, but I have only one.» (ASoS, 57, Daenerys V)

Obviously implying she needs two more heads.

(I think the triangle is: 3Jon, 4Dany, 5Jaime).


Quaithe says: «For dragons are fire made flesh, and fire is power.» (ACoK,27, Daenerys II)
Lightbringer is fire. And flesh is blood. The forging of Lightbringer is Fire and Blood.
We are led to believe that fire and blood is a dreadful catastrophe because of the dragons, but… It also can be Love (Fire) and Life (Blood).

There’s a lot of hints and plain evidence connecting Dragons with Lightbringer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I want to come back to this because I just realized why it bothers me.

You think Drogon is TSTMTW? Ok, fine. I've seen that before and I guess it's not "out there" in terms of theoretical possibility.

But two things that are bothering me

1) Drogon will lead "his people" to rape and plunder? And never get to Westeros?

2) You have argued, many many many times, that Jon is getting Drogon--either by taking him from Dany or by Drogon recognizing that Jon is his true rider and forsaking Dany.

In this thread you seem to be suggesting that AAR = The LH and that Jon = AAR who also thereby = The LH. And I think you believe that Jon is TPTWP (which I agree with, so don't think this is an attack on you). But do you see how heavy this is? Jon is now AAR, TPTWP, the LH, and he rides TSTMTW into battle against the Evil Others. And apparently a Dragon is also LB (and I assume by this you mean Drogon since you also follow R+L = LB, with LB being a Jon-warged Drogon). It's so Jon top heavy that I'm a bit baffled. So either I've misinterpreted you somewhere, in which case correct me and I apologize, or you really think that Jon is going to be the end all be all of this series which seems unfair not only to the other characters in the series but also to GRRM himself who doesn't believe in one person being the sole hero of everything.

1) I think Dany will lead them because she will be the one to unite the khalassars but she will do that because of Drogon. And I think the prophecy will be fulfilled when Dany sacks Pentos. After that, Dany will not take the Dothraki to Westeros. She will need Westerosi allies to fight for her in the Second Dance. The Dothraki thinks that the Stallion is the real hero but the khal who will ride it will be effectively the hero.

I don't think I suggested Jon is AAR in this thread because as you know I always advertise the theory Jon=Lightbringer=TPTWP. Another important thing is that I propose AA=LH but there is nothing to suggest that the LH will be reincarnated again. It is AAR that will be reincarnated. For me AAR is either one or all of Bran, Davos or Sam, which I stated in this thread too.

The prophecies might refer to a single person but that does not make them the sole hero. Take Drogon. According to my interpretation, he is the prophecized hero in the Dothraki legend but his rider in Essos will actually be the hero and fulfill the prophecy. This is the ultimate twist in TSTMTW prophecy IMO.

And the ultimate twist in AAR legend is that the real hero will be the LB, not AAR as people expect. AAR will only make things easier for LB, be some kind of assistant or sidekick to the LB.

And I don't think Jon being the only hero hurts the story because I do not suggest that Jon will get Drogon and kill all the monsters to save the world. That is not how the problem is supposed to be solved. The problem is about leadership and Jon is the one who can finally unite ALL the people in the fight against the Others, as they should have done since AGoT. In this sense, he is the only hero of the story but he will not win the fight alone.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How is Jon going to unite all of Westeros? Especially when there are people fighting over an ugly chair.

Um, hey guys? The wall has fallen. There's some ice zombies right behind me *pauses, and plunges Lightbringer into the closest one* A little help here, please?

Edit: Going on the serious side, I believe there are only 3 real candidates to rule (parts of) the seven kingdoms in the near future. Stannis, who has already benefited from Jon's advice, and knows he's committed to saving the Kingdom.

Aegon: Assuming R+L=J (which I feel is the better position to start from based on the evidence), Aegon could believe he is related to Jon, so may help him out (bonus, Sansa would make sense as a political marriage, and could put in a good word.)

Dany: See the first part for Aegon. As low as my opinion of her is, I also highly doubt she'd sit idly by once informed of the threat of the others.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In reply to the thread title: what good is one sword—even a magical one—wielded by one person likely to be against the White Walkers and their army of undead?



---



Also, despite what butterbumps! would have you believe, R'hllorists should not be called Reds or the Reds. The politically correct name is in fact,

. ;)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

How is Jon going to unite all of Westeros? Especially when there are people fighting over an ugly chair.

IMO, with Cersei activating the wildfire plot of Aerys, that ugly chair will cease to exist. Also Dany will win the Dance decisively (but lose the support of many people in the process).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The prophecies might refer to a single person but that does not make them the sole hero. Take Drogon. According to my interpretation, he is the prophecized hero in the Dothraki legend but his rider in Essos will actually be the hero and fulfill the prophecy. This is the ultimate twist in TSTMTW prophecy IMO.

You were just arguing that the StMtW is just about some guy that goes around pillaging and raping as an unmitigated villain. How does a literal dragon pillage and rape? And why are you now calling it a "hero"?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...