Reasons why Lightbringer is NOT a literal sword

[sj4iy]

In reply to the thread title: what good is one swordeven a magical onewielded by one person likely to be against the White Walkers and their army of undead?

It's really great when you're fighting the Others in places a dragon can't enter. Forests, caves, gorges....plus, do you think a dragon will fly well in a bad snowstorm?

The idea that "dragons are all that's needed!" baffles me. They have their limitations, just as the people riding them have. It was never going to be as easy as "hey, burn them all down, Drogon". What will Jon be doing? Leading an army, most like. What will he need, down in the trenches? An effective weapon. Jon even says a sword that makes its own heat would be a fine thing on the Wall. He doesn't say "well, that's pointless, it's not big enough!" or "dragons would more effective".

LB could very well be the dragons. I'm simply saying that a sword isn't as useless as people are making it out to be.

[chrisdaw]

It's merely theory that Baelor's trial did not literally occur as described.

[J. Stargaryen]

It's really great when you're fighting the Others in places a dragon can't enter. Forests, caves, gorges....plus, do you think a dragon will fly well in a bad snowstorm?

The idea that "dragons are all that's needed!" baffles me. They have their limitations, just as the people riding them have. It was never going to be as easy as "hey, burn them all down, Drogon". What will Jon be doing? Leading an army, most like. What will he need, down in the trenches? An effective weapon. Jon even says a sword that makes its own heat would be a fine thing on the Wall. He doesn't say "well, that's pointless, it's not big enough!" or "dragons would more effective".

LB could very well be the dragons. I'm simply saying that a sword isn't as useless as people are making it out to be.

If I was fighting a flying blowtorch, the last thing I'd do is surround myself with kindling.

I never said that, so... nice straw man? Not that it's an effective straw man, though, since it makes just as much sense to replace dragons with swords. You think swords are all that is needed? I'm baffled.

Which he could also do from dragonback.

Well, he does wish for a dragon or three in ASoS.

As for the rest, I get how and why a sword could have more impact in certain circumstances. However, I also know that Ser Arthur Dayne, armed with finest blade known to man, couldn't outfight six Northerners and Howland Reed. So yeah, I'm going to remain skeptical about how much damage a single man with a single sword can do. Even in the trenches.

There are good narrative arguments in favor LB is a sword. But from a military perspective, it's like arguing you'd rather have a single soldier with a single gun, than a stealth bomber.

[sj4iy]

If I was fighting a flying blowtorch, the last thing I'd do is surround myself with kindling.

I never said that, so... nice straw man? Not that it's an effective straw man, though, since it makes just as much sense to replace dragons with swords. You think swords are all that is needed? I'm baffled.

Which he could also do from dragonback.

Well, he does wish for a dragon or three in ASoS.

As for the rest, I get how and why a sword could have more impact in certain circumstances. However, I also know that Ser Arthur Dayne, armed with finest blade known to man, couldn't outfight six Northerners and Howland Reed. So yeah, I'm going to remain skeptical about how much damage a single man with a single sword can do. Even in the trenches.

There are good narrative arguments in favor LB is a sword. But from a military perspective, it's like arguing you'd rather have a single soldier with a single gun, than a stealth bomber.

If you want to argue about throwing strawmen, then this is a good one. The dragons are already HERE. They are OBVIOUSLY going to fight the Others. There's no 'mystery' surrounding the dragons because we have had dragons for 5 books now. I never once said that the dragons wouldn't be used. I never once said that the dragons wouldn't be useful. They've been hanging around for a while, it's not like anyone is going to forget about them or be in doubt of their abilities. I never once said "trade the dragons for the sword!" I said the sword would be useful in situations that a dragon isn't. I said "I don't understand why people think dragons will be the ONLY THING needed to fight the Others". That's what I said. Do you think this war will only consist of "Dragon goes and burns down dead people, war is won!" No, of course not. People will be fighting on the ground. People will be fighting on the sea. There will be blizzards and bad weather. Three dragons aren't going to be enough to win a war. THAT'S what baffles me...that there are people who seem to think that the only things needed to beat the Others are a few dragons. It's like they haven't even given any thought to the idea that perhaps armies and ground fighting will be necessary. And perhaps they haven't. But the dragons aren't going to be the only weapons necessary in the Battle for the Dawn- otherwise, why have someone like Jon sharpen his sword skills for 5 books straight? Why have Bran hone his warging/skinchanging skills? If Martin is going to do this right, then this war will have everything. That is why I can see there being an actual sword as Lightbringer. Not because I think it would be more effective than dragons...but because I can see why someone would choose a sword over a dragon in certain situations.

[J. Stargaryen]

snip

Well, since I'm not one of the people saying that "dragons are all that is needed," I have no idea why you made that point in response to me. Got it?

[sj4iy]

Well, since I'm not one of the people saying that "dragons are all that is needed," I have no idea why you made that point in response to me. Got it?

Because you seem to think that I'm saying that a sword would be more effective than dragons. Which I never did. Got it?

[J. Stargaryen]

Because you seem to think that I'm saying that a sword would be more effective than dragons. Which I never did. Got it?

Um no. You began this exchange by quoting me and saying: The idea that "dragons are all that's needed!" baffles me. - Link That's what I'm referencing in post 105. And since I never argued otherwise, I'm still wondering what the hell your point was.

[oursisthefury69]

Really? Not even a savior figure who was a great healer, a hero who came with a magical cure to heal whatever ails them?

ETA: consider some of the miracles Jesus performs in the Christian mythos: healing. I'm sure Sothoros has their own savior figure.

Theoretical on top of a theoretical.

ETA: The only thing we know at all about the continent is that its inhospitable and apparently capable of causing deathly disease from stepping on it. Not sure why your going in circles debating that they have a "savior figure." Like sure why not, we know nothing about them, lets just make stuff up

[sj4iy]

Um no. You began this exchange by quoting me and saying: The idea that "dragons are all that's needed!" baffles me. - Link That's what I'm referencing in post 105. And since I never argued otherwise, I'm still wondering what the hell your point was.

"In reply to the thread title: what good is one swordeven a magical onewielded by one person likely to be against the White Walkers and their army of undead?"

That's what you said, and what I was replying to. You are saying that a sword is useless. I said that they will need more than dragons. I don't get what your issue is here. I simply pointed out how a sword ISN'T useless, and that it will take more than just dragons to defeat them. It wasn't a strawman, it was making a point.

[J. Stargaryen]

"In reply to the thread title: what good is one swordeven a magical onewielded by one person likely to be against the White Walkers and their army of undead?"

That's what you said, and what I was replying to. You are saying that a sword is useless. I said that they will need more than dragons. I don't get what your issue is here. I simply pointed out how a sword ISN'T useless, and that it will take more than just dragons to defeat them.

No, I'm not. I asked a rhetorical question to suggest the limited impact a sword could (likely) have in a war, against an army; i.e., one man, one sword vs. army. Arthur Dayne at the ToJ is a good example of what I'm talking about. Best knight, best sword, still died in a small skirmish. The point is not that swords are useless, but that, e.g., dragons could wipe out the entire wight army.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

"When your dragons were small they were a wonder. Grown, they are death and devastation, a flaming sword above the world." from ADwD.

Thank you, AntZ. Is that the only reference? Cause GRRM usually plants at least three hints, each successive clue decreasing in subtlety.

Also, who said this to Daenerys? I'm guessing Barristan.

[Mithras]

Thank you, AntZ. Is that the only reference? Cause GRRM usually plants at least three hints, each successive clue decreasing in subtlety.

Also, who said this to Daenerys? I'm guessing Barristan.

It was Xaro and I think this might be the only reference.

[J. Stargaryen]

"When your dragons were small they were a wonder. Grown, they are death and devastation, a flaming sword above the world." from ADwD.

Ser Davos Seaworth lingered over his tankard for a good while, thinking. A year ago, he had been with Stannis in King’s Landing when King Robert staged a tourney for Prince Joffrey’s name day. He remembered the red priest Thoros of Myr, and the flaming sword he had wielded in the melee. The man had made for a colorful spectacle, his red robes flapping while his blade writhed with pale green flames, but everyone knew there was no true magic to it, and in the end his fire had guttered out and Bronze Yohn Royce had brained him with a common mace.

A true sword of fire, now, that would be a wonder to behold. Yet at such a cost… When he thought of Nissa Nissa, it was his own Marya he pictured, a good-natured plump woman with sagging breasts and a kindly smile, the best woman in the world. He tried to picture himself driving a sword through her, and shuddered. I am not made of the stuff of heroes, he decided. If that was the price of a magic sword, it was more than he cared to pay.

- ACoK, Davos I

This shortly follows Saan's recounting of the LB creation story, btw. After which, Davos' mind drifts to a literal, non-magical flaming sword, whose flames ran out. But then he thinks: A true sword of fire, now, that would be a wonder to behold. Compare that to the language used by Xaro: "When your dragons were small they were a wonder. Grown, they are death and devastation, a flaming sword above the world."

[Lady Blizzardborn]

It was Xaro and I think this might be the only reference.

Xaro wasn't in ADwD.

[sj4iy]

No, I'm not. I asked a rhetorical question to suggest the limited impact a sword could (likely) have in a war, against an army; i.e., one man, one sword vs. army. Arthur Dayne at the ToJ is a good example of what I'm talking about. Best knight, best sword, still died in a small skirmish. The point is not that swords are useless, but that, e.g., dragons could wipe out the entire wight army.

You're assuming that Lightbringer would be no more useful than a regular sword- I think that's a false assumption. Dawn may be pretty and light, but it has no magical properties that we know of. Lightbringer is obviously magic and could very well have properties unknown to us.

Dragons have weaknesses and can be killed, too. We have no idea how the dragons will react to cold- especially extreme cold. Fire may melt snow and ice, but ice and snow can also douse a fire.

Your argument that swordsmen can be killed also applies to dragons and dragon riders, so it's irrelevant.

[BearQueen87]

Xaro wasn't in ADwD.

Dany III, he comes to offer her ships if she leaves Meereen. She turns him down.

[J. Stargaryen]

You're assuming that Lightbringer would be no more useful than a regular sword- I think that's a false assumption. Dawn may be pretty and light, but it has no magical properties that we know of. Lightbringer is obviously magic and could very well have properties unknown to us.

Dragons have weaknesses and can be killed, too. We have no idea how the dragons will react to cold- especially extreme cold. Fire may melt snow and ice, but ice and snow can also douse a fire.

Your argument that swordsmen can be killed also applies to dragons and dragon riders, so it's irrelevant.

Nope. I assume that it would be like a "super sword" (sharper, lighter, etc.), but still basically restricted to sword-like actions; e.g., no Go-Go Gadget blade. Though I could see it having some special property, like giving off heat. I used Dawn as an example because it's the best sword known to man. And even wielded by the best knight at the ToJ, was not worth a whole lot in terms of manpower in that battle. LB-as-a-sword would most likely be wielded by an inferior knight than Arthur Dayne, which would probably nullify at least some of its advantage over Dawn.

Not at all. Of course anyone can die in battle. That goes without saying. Offensively though, dragon > sword.

[sj4iy]

Nope. I assume that it would be like a "super sword" (sharper, lighter, etc.), but still basically restricted to sword-like actions; e.g., no Go-Go Gadget blade. Though I could see it having some special property, like giving off heat. I used Dawn as an example because it's the best sword known to man. And even wielded by the best knight at the ToJ, was not worth a whole lot in terms of manpower in that battle. LB-as-a-sword would most likely be wielded by an inferior knight than Arthur Dayne, which would probably nullify at least some of its advantage over Dawn.

Not at all. Of course anyone can die in battle. That goes without saying. Offensively though, dragon > sword.

Unless your enemy is in a place unreachable by dragon.

[The Mother of The Others]

Try and try again is how you forge a sword but also how you reach a cease fire.

Lightbringer could be any procedure, magic ritual or no, that leads to establishing contact with the Others so we're dealing with them instead of them just striking us down.

If Lightbringer is reached through humping, then the procedure is to create someone with a rich concentration of magical blood and send her/him into the northern wastes in the hope that the Others will listen to that person as they have before.

[The Mother of The Others]

After Jon is Otherized, he may be able to flip the magical switch none of the other Others can touch because they're all composed of only cold magic. But Jon has fire too, and maybe qualifies to flip the safety valve on the seasons which none of the other Others have the security clearance level to do, since they're all technically outcast prisoners under lock and key.