Tommen, the Valonqar

[DeathYon]

Greetings all, this will be my first post here.

I've been creeping this website for about a year now so I really appreciate all of these great threads that you guys and gals have been engaging yourselves in.

Anyway, I know that the Valonqar theory has been pretty heavily debated, so I've been meaning to begin a thread (my main reason for starting an account) to have some discussion in regards to my own.

I've gathered that the general consensus is that it will most likely be Jaime Lannister.

I kinda like the idea of it being Jaime, but there's a few things that just don't add up.

Firstly, Jaime only has one hand. I'm not going to deny that he could easily choke Cersei with his golden hand, but Maggy's prophecy is very specific. She clearly states that "the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you".

Secondly, Jaime has been on the path of redemption and if Jaime were to murder Cersei it would somewhat ruin his story arc. Throughout the entirety of AFFC Jaime changes significantly and it's clear that once he burns Cercei's letter he doesn't want anything to do with her. Remember the chapter where Jaime has a conversation with Lancel? I think it's definitely a hugely different outcome to what would have happened if it were GoT-CoK Jaime. Jaime murdering Cersei would undo countless pages of psychological change.

A lot of people seem to think Jaime will kill Cersei for contributing to Tommen's murder, but will this really motivate him enough to rush to Cersei? It's likely that he'll hear the news of Tommen's death, but I don't think that Jaime has the ability to care that much about Tommen.

Thirdly, I'm not entirely sure how the BWB/Stoneheart incident will go down. It's a possibility that Jaime will actually be killed by Stoneheart in the upcoming book. There is also the possibility of Brienne dying in Jaime's place (maybe a trial by combat, fighting the BWB, or volunteering to do so) which I believe that this would cause considerable emotional scarring to Jaime. I also think this may enforce the whole 'can Jaime really be forgiven' stigma as many people may dislike Jaime for allowing Brienne to die. Anyway, after witnessing Brienne's death I don't think Jaime will be able to hurt/kill another human being, I may be wrong though.

Fourthly, Jaime has never been referred to as 'the little brother', that has always been Tyrion. I doubt that Tyrion will be the Valonqar because that's who Cersei expects it to be. I am aware that Jaime was born a few minutes after Cersei but I don't believe that's enough to be referred to as 'the little brother' in a prophecy as specific as Maggies is.

*Potential spoilers for the last point*

And finally, there's fAegon. Wouldn't it become Jaime's duty to try and defend Westeros from invaders i.e. fAegon + The Golden Company?

In my opinion, I think that the Valonqar might be Tommen.

I don't think it's a coincidence that Maggy describes Cersei's killer as the Volanqar and not your Volanqar. Maybe it's a language thing, but I dunno.

Shortly before prophesying Cersei's death she is telling her about her children.

Cersei: Will the king and I have children?
Maggy: Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you.

Maggy then says how they will all be crowned and then killed, and in her grief she will be murdered. I feel like Maggy is talking about the same group of people, which is Cersei's children.

To put it simply "you're going to have three children, they'll be crowned before they are killed, and then the youngest son will choke you to death".

I'm thinking that Tommen will be murdered by either fAegon or a FM (on behalf of the IB), or possibly by someone/thing else. Cersei will then have a bier for Tommen to have her own private funeral and will do a bit of monologuing, after this she will then look back at Tommen's bier to discover that he's actually sitting/standing up and has been reanimated as a wight, he then chokes her to death.

Why do I think that Tommen will become a wight?

Well, Maggy says "and when your tears have drowned you" to me, this suggests that absolutely everything has turned to shit in Cersei's life. We all know that Cersei loves her children, Jaime, and most importantly, Cersei loves herself. I think that once she hears that the Others are on their way (this will be after Jaime, Tommen, and Myrcella die) she will enter the "and when your tears have drowned you" phase she will then rush to Tommen's bier to apologize/whatever for causing his death.

Maybe the tv scene with Tommen and Cersei during the BOTBW could be seen as a light foreshadowing? Once she thought that the battle was lost she immediately goes to Tommen. Also, keep in mind that GRRM actually wrote this episode. This probably isn't true foreshadowing, but I thought I'd just include it.

Anyway, if you're still reading this, thank-you. I've been meaning to get this theory off my chest for a few months now.

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

I think crowns of gold refers to their hair color and not necessarily to a literal crown. Jaime could still kill her with both of his hands, just one of them would be gold. Afterall, Tyrion killed Shae with a lot of hands all golden.

Jaime being on the path to redemption may culminate with him killing Cersei who has been on the path to the 7th hell since she was born.The act of killing her himself may be him killing the part of himself that was evil to begin with.

[DeathYon]

I think crowns of gold refers to their hair color and not necessarily to a literal crown. Jaime could still kill her with both of his hands, just one of them would be gold. Afterall, Tyrion killed Shae with a lot of hands all golden.

Jaime being on the path to redemption may culminate with him killing Cersei who has been on the path to the 7th hell since she was born.The act of killing her himself may be him killing the part of himself that was evil to begin with.

Hmm, you have a point there.

Yeah, I understand that he could still murder her with his golden hand, but I wouldn't personally refer to it as one of "his hands", know what I mean?

I could just be looking into that part too literally though.

I think him killing her would only fit his redemption arc if it was because she was trying to harm someone. Cersei's an evil woman, no doubt, but if Jaime were to kill her it would be for selfish reasons, i.e. Lancel and the Kettleblacks.

Jaime is a pretty dark character and him killing her would be like taking ten steps back. She's a hell of a lot worse than he is, but he's done some pretty bad stuff too.

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

Hmm, you have a point there.

Yeah, I understand that he could still murder her with his golden hand, but I wouldn't personally refer to it as one of "his hands", know what I mean?

I could just be looking into that part too literally though.

I think him killing her would only fit his redemption arc if it was because she was trying to harm someone. Cersei's an evil woman, no doubt, but if Jaime were to kill her it would be for selfish reasons, i.e. Lancel and the Kettleblacks.

Jaime is a pretty dark character and him killing her would be like taking ten steps back. She's a hell of a lot worse than he is, but he's done some pretty bad stuff too.

I only believe that Jaime killing Cersei would be his final act of freeing himself from the evil inside of himself in the form of Cersei. Almost every evil thing he did was Cersei's planning. He became a King's Guard only to be near her and only at her behest. He killed Aerys because he was an evil man who ordered him to bring him his own father's head and planned to burn a lot of innocent people through Rossart. (Jaime killed him too). Being labled as a Kingslayer had a profound effect on Jaime. No one understood why he had to kill Aerys except Brienne. No wonder then that he saw the beauty in her and his eyes were then opened to the ugliness of Cersei. I still have hope for Jaime. I think he will die, but I hope it will be an honorable death.

[Sword of the Morgan]

I won't rule this out, because it seems possible. However, if "Tommen" chokes Cersei to death I actually think it could end up being Arya (who has already killed Tommen and is wearing his face). I think that would be more rewarding than the wight thing.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Tommen is not strong enough. UnTommen maybe could, but I really think it's going to be one of the grownups.

If it's Jaime it's almost certain (to me) that he'll use the Hand's Chain of Office. And that it will be because Cersei has completely snapped and killed Myrcella (the younger, more beautiful queen).

Welcome to the boards, DeathYon. You're not alone in this theory by the way. Some other people have taken the proximity of the mentions of the children to the valonqar to mean it will be Tommen.

I'm waiting for GRRM to spin this on its head and tells us that whoever told Cersei the definition of valonqar was wrong.

[Guard of the Rainking]

Maybe Tommen unknowingly gives the order. You know by stamping every paper infront of him.

[DeathYon]

I only believe that Jaime killing Cersei would be his final act of freeing himself from the evil inside of himself in the form of Cersei. Almost every evil thing he did was Cersei's planning. He became a King's Guard only to be near her and only at her behest. He killed Aerys because he was an evil man who ordered him to bring him his own father's head and planned to burn a lot of innocent people through Rossart. (Jaime killed him too). Being labled as a Kingslayer had a profound effect on Jaime. No one understood why he had to kill Aerys except Brienne. No wonder then that he saw the beauty in her and his eyes were then opened to the ugliness of Cersei. I still have hope for Jaime. I think he will die, but I hope it will be an honorable death.

Yes, I'd say that Cersei certainly has manipulated Jaime in a number of ways.

I wouldn't say that every single evil thing Jaime did was because of her though, i.e. Bran.

I hope so too.

I won't rule this out, because it seems possible. However, if "Tommen" chokes Cersei to death I actually think it could end up being Arya (who has already killed Tommen and is wearing his face). I think that would be more rewarding than the wight thing.

Yes, that would definitely be more rewarding. Maybe in Maggie's vision she saw the valonqar but didn't know he/she had a mask on?

I'm not sure if this will be the greatest idea though, it's almost a little too good to be true.

Tommen is not strong enough. UnTommen maybe could, but I really think it's going to be one of the grownups.

If it's Jaime it's almost certain (to me) that he'll use the Hand's Chain of Office. And that it will be because Cersei has completely snapped and killed Myrcella (the younger, more beautiful queen).

Welcome to the boards, DeathYon. You're not alone in this theory by the way. Some other people have taken the proximity of the mentions of the children to the valonqar to mean it will be Tommen.

I'm waiting for GRRM to spin this on its head and tells us that whoever told Cersei the definition of valonqar was wrong.

I like this idea too.

Cersei seems to think that Margery is the 'younger more beautiful queen' and it would be a great twist if she thinks that she has beaten her (the trial) but it actually ends up being Myrcella who overthrows her.

Have any other characters used the word 'valonqar'? Or is it just the people Cersei knows?

Maybe Tommen unknowingly gives the order. You know by stamping every paper infront of him.

Hahahahah, that would be fantastic.

[Cody Garris]

I could definitely see this happening. But I wouldnt mind cersei finally getting one thing right and tyrion finally doing the deed.

[larastone]

Tommen becoming a wight and choking Cersei would be too campy for GRRM's style. I think the whole point of the prophecy is "greek tragedy"

[MarienneOfTarth]

I don't think that Tommen will become a wight and choke his mother. I find it far more likely that he would turn on his mother, possibly if Margery is found guilty and killed, and he blames Cersei for it. The narrative has definitely shown him growing closer to Margery and the Tyrells in general and I imagine he would be upset if Margery is condemned.

I also agree and hope Jaime doesn't kill Cersei. I think it would be more effective if his character continues to ignore her.

[Narvi]

I think he's(Jamie) going to kill her with his dying breath as Kings Landing falls all around them from her stupidity.

[A horsefaced girl]

"Tommen’s throne will be secure, and my twisted valonqar will be short a head and rotting."

Based on this line from feast it could be Tommen. Not necessarily as a wight, she could try to save his life how she did The Mountain.