R+L = J v.109

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

Yeah, but the count earlier on thread included Rhaella.. Rhaella does not descend from Aerys, so either, for the seven rubies, we should count only their descendants, which would bring the count to five.

Or we should count both Aerys and Rhaella, because without that union there would.be no descendants..

But counting Rhaella yet excluding Aerys does not sound right to me.

Pretty sure the count earlier included Rhaella erroneously. Rhaenys is missing.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Pretty sure the count earlier included Rhaella erroneously. Rhaenys is missing.

Yes, I was just noticing... It should go:

Rhaegar

Viserys

Rhaenys

Aegon

Danaerys

Rhaego

......Jon

While I've struggled with the inclusion of Rhaego, I've come to the conclusion that there's ample indication that he was alive in Dany's POV. And his existence is known which is the key to the symbolism-- Jon was born before both Dany and Rhaego, but his existence has remained secret. Once he ("the seventh") is revealed presumably we will have what we've been waiting for since the woods witch made her prophesy.

[J. Stargaryen]

Yes, I was just noticing... It should go:

Rhaegar

Viserys

Rhaenys

Aegon

Danaerys

Rhaego

......Jon

While I've struggled with the inclusion of Rhaego, I've come to the conclusion that there's ample indication that he was alive in Dany's POV. And his existence is known which is the key to the symbolism-- Jon was born before both Dany and Rhaego, but his existence has remained secret. Once he ("the seventh") is revealed presumably we will have what we've been waiting for since the woods witch made her prophesy.

In relation to the bold, I believe I've made the same point. Further, it also helps that he had a name, since it identifies him. But yeah, the known/secret existence is the key here, I think.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

In relation to the bold, I believe I've made the same point. Further, it also helps that he had a name, since it identifies him. But yeah, the known/secret existence is the key here, I think.

Yes the name gives him a place in the family, for certain. Also, I should have added that if one goes to the linked thread, it's explained there in much greater detail :)

[J. Stargaryen]

Yes the name gives him a place in the family, for certain. Also, I should have added that if one goes to the linked thread, it's explained there in much greater detail :)

It sure is. :) And it's really worth a read for anyone who has any questions about it. Here are a couple of relevant posts from that thread.

Me:

However, I don't believe that Rhaego's stillbirth is an issue in the way that some do. After all, logically speaking, you can't die if you never lived. So, technically, he's just a deceased descendant of Aerys and Rhaella. Kind of like Rhaegar, Viserys, etc.

Also, I think the use of the word "found" indicates some wordplay concerning Jon Snow's identity; i.e., it still has yet to be discovered that he is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, in-story. So, six Targaryens have been "found," and Jon will be the seventh once his true parentage is revealed.

- Link

Lady Gwyn:

Correct. Dany repeatedly feels the babe moving inside her, recognizing him as a living entity and even naming him.

Even in medieval times, once a woman was "quick" (that is, could feel the movements of the babe in her belly) it was considered alive. Thus the difference between a miscarriage and a still-birth (while both are given different terms in medical speak, these colloquial expressions best express our understanding of the two different types of fetal loss)

- Link

[Rhaegal Targaryen]

Since people asked me about the rubies,i think it goes like that.

Rhaegar
Viserys
Aegon

Rhaenys
Danaerys
Rhaego
Jon

[Consigliere]

I'm not so sure about including Rhaego although J. Stargaryen's explanation is pretty convincing. If the rubies = Rhaegars blood then I see the candidates as follows:

His parents - Aerys and Rhaella

His siblings - Dany and Viserys

His children - Rhaenys, Aegon and Jon

[J. Stargaryen]

I'm not so sure about including Rhaego although J. Stargaryen's explanation is pretty convincing. If the rubies = Rhaegars blood then I see the candidates as follows:

His parents - Aerys and Rhaella

His siblings - Dany and Viserys

His children - Rhaenys, Aegon and Jon

That makes sense, as long as you're not tying it to the PtwP, in which case you wouldn't include Aerys and Rhaella.

[Consigliere]

That makes sense, as long as you're not tying it to the PtwP, in which case you wouldn't include Aerys and Rhaella.

No, I never really considered the rubies symbolism to be tied to the PtwP but rather view it as a hint towards R+L=J. The six known members of Rhaegars immediate family plus the 7th yet to be revealed.

[J. Stargaryen]

No, I never really considered the rubies symbolism to be tied to the PtwP but rather view it as a hint towards R+L=J. The six known members of Rhaegars immediate family plus the 7th yet to be revealed.

That definitely makes sense. Of course it also looks like an interesting coincidence that Aerys and Rhaella's line is exactly seven people long, counting Jon Snow, since it is their line that is supposed to produce the PtwP.

[JonSnow4President]

Yeah, but the count earlier on thread included Rhaella.. Rhaella does not descend from Aerys, so either, for the seven rubies, we should count only their descendants, which would bring the count to five.

Or we should count both Aerys and Rhaella, because without that union there would.be no descendants..

But counting Rhaella yet excluding Aerys does not sound right to me.

Sorry about that. I had an extended moment of stupidity yesterday. Was thinking Rhaenys was actually Rhaella, and that Rhaella was Elia.

[UnmaskedLurker]

This also has the requirement that this is one of the prophecies that does come true (since not all of them will according to GRRM). But it would be lame if it wouldn't since it's a major thing in the series.

I have seen this interpretation of GRRM's words before and I strongly disagree with this interpretation. While maybe it is possible that strong magic can avoid having a prophecy come true (although I am not convinced that this will be the case, but some argue that MMD avoided TSTMTW prophecy), a prophecy is not going to simply not come true and lay out there as a red herring with no explanation for why it did not come true. What GRRM really said was that prophecies are tricky -- that they can be misinterpreted or misunderstood. But I challenge your or anyone to find a quote in which GRRM actually said that some prophecies won't happen.

Certain prophecies won't happen, perhaps, in the way people expected them to happen. But there is no point in a fictional story that includes magic and prophecies that have come true to have some prophecies not come true at all. GRRM has also said (in connection with not changing the resolution to certain mysteries) that he is a not a liar to the readers. Putting forth a prophecy to have it just not happen is the equivalent of lying to the readers--something GRRM does not do. So in the end, it will become clear to the readers that someone was TPTWP. I believe the clues are strong that Jon is TPTWP. But even if I am wrong, someone will fit the criteria to be TPTWP.

[Ellfoy]

I'm not so sure about including Rhaego although J. Stargaryen's explanation is pretty convincing. If the rubies = Rhaegars blood then I see the candidates as follows:

His parents - Aerys and Rhaella

His siblings - Dany and Viserys

His children - Rhaenys, Aegon and Jon

Actually, that interpretation makes a lot more of sense and it's less of a stretch (by including Rhaego). Rhaegar's rubies have never been tied to TPTWP and even if they were, we are talking about Rhaegar's bloodlines there so we don't need to take it via the wood witch prophecy which was made before Rhaegar was born. It seems that Aerys and Rhaella's job was to make Rhaegar who will determinate by his actions who would be TPTWP.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I'm not so sure about including Rhaego although J. Stargaryen's explanation is pretty convincing. If the rubies = Rhaegars blood then I see the candidates as follows:

His parents - Aerys and Rhaella

His siblings - Dany and Viserys

His children - Rhaenys, Aegon and Jon

I agree with this.

[Chrysaerys_Blackfyre]

All the evidence needed comes from Ned Stark's povs. The tower of joy flashback the constant mention of a promise when asked about Jon. She died in a bed of blood and flowers. Also they say jon and arya look the most similar and in brans vision of lyana fighting with benjen in the godswood he mistakes her for arya. Then there's denaerys vision of the blue winter rose (lyanas favorite flower) growing from a wall of ice. All pointing to Jon being lyanas child. By default because lyana only ever slept with Rhaegar this makes him his son.

[BearQueen87]

I'm not so sure about including Rhaego although J. Stargaryen's explanation is pretty convincing. If the rubies = Rhaegars blood then I see the candidates as follows:

His parents - Aerys and Rhaella

His siblings - Dany and Viserys

His children - Rhaenys, Aegon and Jon

I think I like this one quite a bit.

[BearQueen87]

DP

[UnmaskedLurker]

I'm not so sure about including Rhaego although J. Stargaryen's explanation is pretty convincing. If the rubies = Rhaegars blood then I see the candidates as follows:

His parents - Aerys and Rhaella

His siblings - Dany and Viserys

His children - Rhaenys, Aegon and Jon

Quick question--if these seven people represent the seven rubies--what about Rhaegar himself? Why wouldn't Rhaegar's "blood" include himself?

[Moonray]

Sorry for butting in with the weird thought.

I was watching Phantom Manace (Star Wars) and I remebered that somone said in interview that Jon's parathage is Luke Skywalkerish (is that a word?), What if the simmilarity is not just Jon Snow/Luke but their parents?

Anakin Skywalker was the Chosen One, what if Rheager was right the first time and he, Rheager, was Prince that was Promissed?

There are also similariteis with Padme Amidala and Lyanna / Anakin and Rheager.

[sj4iy]

Sorry for butting in with the weird thought.

I was watching Phantom Manace (Star Wars) and I remebered that somone said in interview that Jon's parathage is Luke Skywalkerish (is that a word?), What if the simmilarity is not just Jon Snow/Luke but their parents?

Anakin Skywalker was the Chosen One, what if Rheager was right the first time and he, Rheager, was Prince that was Promissed?

There are also similariteis with Padme Amidala and Lyanna / Anakin and Rheager.

Rhaegar's totally going to come back from the dead and cut off Jon's hand.