R+L = J v.109

[Alia of the knife]

Jon has no mum. It is known.

I like the idea of adding a list of clues to the OP. Do we vote? Is this a thing we vote on??

Interesting that the name "Wylla", Hawaiian in orgin, means "faithful.

Perhaps as in "faithful" servant, who would do anything to hide something? ^_^

[Alia of the knife]

Ghost could also be Jon's actual ghost, too.

Right, or a reflection of his identity.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Shouldn't all the quotes gathered now be accompanied by some explanatory text? Most regulars get the symbolism, immediately. But those new to the series, forums or theory might need an explanation ?

[BearQueen87]

Shouldn't all the quotes gathered now be accompanied by some explanatory text? Most regulars get the symbolism, immediately. But those new to the series, forums or theory might need an explanation ?

Good idea but how long can the OP of this thread be? It's already pretty long, even with something spoiled out. We'd have to either break it into two posts or I guess spoil out all the quotes and explanatory text.

[sj4iy]

Shouldn't all the quotes gathered now be accompanied by some explanatory text? Most regulars get the symbolism, immediately. But those new to the series, forums or theory might need an explanation ?

I'm gathering them all, I'm simply putting them up here by book so that people can suggest the ones that I missed. I promise, when I have all 5 so far, I will put up a link to the file so that people can find it at anytime :)

[Alia of the knife]

The thing with Jon and his physical vs. his literal birth, is that they have set up the storyline of having to burn the dead in order to ensure they do not turn, or as a part of a death rite, so that is one reason I speculate his "rebirth," will be somewhat similar to Danys, especially if they try and burn his body.

[BearQueen87]

The thing with Jon and his physical vs. his literal birth, is that they have set up the storyline of having to burn the dead in order to ensure they do not turn, or as a part of a death rite, so that is one reason I speculate his "rebirth," will be somewhat similar to Danys, especially if they try and burn his body.

Burn Jon's body, in front of a heart tree, in the dead of winter. The RLJ symbolism...is intense here. And if you have Mel and Val do it (fire priestess, ice priestess) it would be like an explosion of RLJ.

[Alia of the knife]

Burn Jon's body, in front of a heart tree, in the dead of winter. The RLJ symbolism...is intense here. And if you have Mel and Val do it (fire priestess, ice priestess) it would be like an explosion of RLJ.

It would certainly parallel Dani's arc and the manner which she gained followers, which also developed the mythos surrounding her.

Lets face it, if he comes back that way, people will either run to him, falling to their knees, (even the Wildlings), or run away from him.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Good idea but how long can the OP of this thread be? It's already pretty long, even with something spoiled out. We'd have to either break it into two posts or I guess spoil out all the quotes and explanatory text.

I'm gathering them all, I'm simply putting them up here by book so that people can suggest the ones that I missed. I promise, when I have all 5 so far, I will put up a link to the file so that people can find it at anytime :)

Yeah, like this, with a file linked in the OP, so the OP will only be slightly longer than it is now.

No matter if it is using google documents, or something similar..

[J. Stargaryen]

Good idea but how long can the OP of this thread be? It's already pretty long, even with something spoiled out. We'd have to either break it into two posts or I guess spoil out all the quotes and explanatory text.

Maybe we can get permission from the mods to start a thread for this. One with an OP that can be updated with the latest submissions. That way we can just provide a link to that OP in the R+L=J OP.

[Dorian Martell]

Hodor!

[Ghost's Shadow]

Where? :o

[Mithras]

Burn Jon's body, in front of a heart tree, in the dead of winter. The RLJ symbolism...is intense here. And if you have Mel and Val do it (fire priestess, ice priestess) it would be like an explosion of RLJ.

I am thinking of Whitetree, given that Jon could feel its power and they found burned remains in the giant mouth of the tree.

[sj4iy]

Well, let me know what you guys decide. I'm still going to work on the list :) Let me know if I've missed something in AGOT or ACOK! I will ASOS soon.

[sj4iy]

Alright, here's the "R+L=J Hints" found in book 3. As always, let me know what I've missed and I will add it to the master. Nothing's in order, and I've excluded any obscure foreshadowing.

ASOS:

He dreamt he was back in Winterfell, limping past the stone kings on their thrones. Their grey granite eyes turned to follow him as he passed, and their grey granite fingers tightened on the hilts of the rusted swords upon their laps. You are no Stark, he could hear them mutter, in heavy granite voices. There is no place for you here. Go away.

---

“I know little of Rhaegar. Only the tales Viserys told, and he was a little boy when our brother died. What was he truly like?”

The old man considered a moment. “Able. That above all. Determined, deliberate, dutiful, single-minded. There is a tale told of him... but doubtless Ser Jorah knows it as well.”

“I would hear it from you.”

“As you wish,” said Whitebeard. “As a young boy, the Prince of Dragonstone was bookish to a fault. He was reading so early that men said Queen Rhaella must have swallowed some books and a candle whilst he was in her womb. Rhaegar took no interest in the play of other children. The maesters were awed by his wits, but his father’s knights would jest sourly that Baelor the Blessed had been born again. Until one day Prince Rhaegar found something in his scrolls that changed him. No one knows what it might have been, only that the boy suddenly appeared early one morning in the yard as the knights were donning their steel. He walked up to Ser Willem Darry, the master-at-arms, and said, ‘I will require sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior.”'

---

No doubt he was waiting for Prince Viserys to mature, or perhaps for Rhaegar’s wife to die in childbed. Elia of Dorne was never the healthiest of women.

---

“Prince Rhaegar’s prowess was unquestioned, but he seldom entered the lists. He never loved

the song of swords the way that Robert did, or Jaime Lannister. It was something he had to do, a task the world had set him. He did it well, for he did everything well. That was his nature. But he took no joy in it. Men said that he loved his harp much better than his lance.”

“He won some tourneys, surely,” said Dany, disappointed.

“When he was young, His Grace rode brilliantly in a tourney at Storm’s End, defeating Lord Steffon Baratheon, Lord Jason Mallister, the Red Viper of Dorne, and a mystery knight who proved to be the infamous Simon Toyne, chief of the kingswood outlaws. He broke twelve lances against Ser Arthur Dayne that day.”

“Was he the champion, then?”

“No, Your Grace. That honor went to another knight of the Kingsguard, who unhorsed Prince Rhaegar in the final tilt.”

Dany did not want to hear about Rhaegar being unhorsed. “But what tourneys did my brother win?”

“Your Grace.” The old man hesitated. “He won the greatest tourney of them all.”
“Which was that?” Dany demanded.
“The tourney Lord Whent staged at Harrenhal beside the Gods Eye, in the year of the false spring. A notable event. Besides the jousting, there was a melee in the old style fought between seven teams of knights, as well as archery and axe-throwing, a horse race, a tournament of singers, a mummer show, and many feasts and frolics. Lord Whent was as open handed as he was rich. The lavish purses he proclaimed drew hundreds of challengers. Even your royal father came to Harrenhal, when he had not left the Red Keep for long years. The greatest lords and mightiest champions of the Seven Kingdoms rode in that tourney, and the Prince of Dragonstone bested them all.”

“But that was the tourney when he crowned Lyanna Stark as queen of love and beauty!” said Dany. “Princess Elia was there, his wife, and yet my brother gave the crown to the Stark girl, and later stole her away from her betrothed. How could he do that? Did the Dornish woman treat him so ill?”

“It is not for such as me to say what might have been in your brother’s heart, Your Grace. The Princess Elia was a good and gracious lady, though her health was ever delicate.”

Dany pulled the lion pelt tighter about her shoulders. “Viserys said once that it was my fault, for being born too late.” She had denied it hotly, she remembered, going so far as to tell Viserys that it was his fault for not being born a girl. He beat her cruelly for that insolence. “If I had been born more timely, he said, Rhaegar would have married me instead of Elia, and it would all have come out different. If Rhaegar had been happy in his wife, he would not have needed the Stark girl.”

“Perhaps so, Your Grace.” Whitebeard paused a moment. “But I am not certain it was in Rhaegar to be happy.”

“You make him sound so sour,” Dany protested.

“Not sour, no, but... there was a melancholy to Prince Rhaegar, a sense...” The old man hesitated again.

“Say it,” she urged. “A sense... ?”

“... of doom. He was born in grief, my queen, and that shadow hung over him all his days.” Viserys had spoken of Rhaegar’s birth only once. Perhaps the tale saddened him too much. “It was the shadow of Summerhall that haunted him, was it not?”

“Yes. And yet Summerhall was the place the prince loved best. He would go there from time to time, with only his harp for company. Even the knights of the Kingsguard did not attend him there. He liked to sleep in the ruined hall, beneath the moon and stars, and whenever he came back he would bring a song. When you heard him play his high harp with the silver strings and sing of twilights and tears and the death of kings, you could not but feel that he was singing of himself and those he loved.”

---

Five had been his brothers. Oswell Whent and Jon Darry. Lewyn Martell, a prince of Dorne. The White Bull, Gerold Hightower. Ser Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning. And beside them, crowned in mist and grief with his long hair streaming behind him, rode Rhaegar Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone and rightful heir to the Iron Throne.

“You don’t frighten me,” he called, turning as they split to either side of him. He did not know which way to face. “I will fight you one by one or all together. But who is there for the wench to duel? She gets cross when you leave her out.”

“I swore an oath to keep him safe,” she said to Rhaegar’s shade. “I swore a holy oath.”

“We all swore oaths,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, so sadly.
The shades dismounted from their ghostly horses. When they drew their longswords, it made not a sound. “He was going to burn the city,” Jaime said. “To leave Robert only ashes.” “He was your king,” said Darry.

“You swore to keep him safe,” said Whent.

“And the children, them as well,” said Prince Lewyn.

Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. “I left my wife and children in your hands.”

“I never thought he’d hurt them.” Jaime’s sword was burning less brightly now. “I was with the king...

“Killing the king,” said Ser Arthur.

“Cutting his throat,” said Prince Lewyn.

“The king you had sworn to die for,” said the White Bull.

---

“Ser Amory acted on his own in the hope of winning favor from the new king. Robert’s hatred for Rhaegar was scarcely a secret.”

---

“Not now,” she agreed. “One day. One day you must tell me all. The good and the bad. There is some good to be said of my father, surely?”

“There is, Your Grace. Of him, and those who came before him. Your grandfather Jaehaerys and his brother, their father Aegon, your mother... and Rhaegar. Him most of all.”

---

“Elia found it all exciting. She was of that age, and her delicate health had never permitted her much travel.”

[UnmaskedLurker]

This project of putting together the clues is great--thanks so much sj4ij. I agree, however, with those who suggest that to be fully useful, a short explanation of why the clue might suggest R+L=J would be incredibly valuable--especially given that some of these hints are subtle.

[Rhaegal Targaryen]

Alright, here's the "R+L=J Hints" found in book 3. As always, let me know what I've missed and I will add it to the master. Nothing's in order, and I've excluded any obscure foreshadowing.

ASOS:

He dreamt he was back in Winterfell, limping past the stone kings on their thrones. Their grey granite eyes turned to follow him as he passed, and their grey granite fingers tightened on the hilts of the rusted swords upon their laps. You are no Stark, he could hear them mutter, in heavy granite voices. There is no place for you here. Go away.

---

“I know little of Rhaegar. Only the tales Viserys told, and he was a little boy when our brother died. What was he truly like?”

The old man considered a moment. “Able. That above all. Determined, deliberate, dutiful, single-minded. There is a tale told of him... but doubtless Ser Jorah knows it as well.”

“I would hear it from you.”

“As you wish,” said Whitebeard. “As a young boy, the Prince of Dragonstone was bookish to a fault. He was reading so early that men said Queen Rhaella must have swallowed some books and a candle whilst he was in her womb. Rhaegar took no interest in the play of other children. The maesters were awed by his wits, but his father’s knights would jest sourly that Baelor the Blessed had been born again. Until one day Prince Rhaegar found something in his scrolls that changed him. No one knows what it might have been, only that the boy suddenly appeared early one morning in the yard as the knights were donning their steel. He walked up to Ser Willem Darry, the master-at-arms, and said, ‘I will require sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior.”'

---

No doubt he was waiting for Prince Viserys to mature, or perhaps for Rhaegar’s wife to die in childbed. Elia of Dorne was never the healthiest of women.

---

“Prince Rhaegar’s prowess was unquestioned, but he seldom entered the lists. He never loved

the song of swords the way that Robert did, or Jaime Lannister. It was something he had to do, a task the world had set him. He did it well, for he did everything well. That was his nature. But he took no joy in it. Men said that he loved his harp much better than his lance.”

“He won some tourneys, surely,” said Dany, disappointed.

“When he was young, His Grace rode brilliantly in a tourney at Storm’s End, defeating Lord Steffon Baratheon, Lord Jason Mallister, the Red Viper of Dorne, and a mystery knight who proved to be the infamous Simon Toyne, chief of the kingswood outlaws. He broke twelve lances against Ser Arthur Dayne that day.”

“Was he the champion, then?”

“No, Your Grace. That honor went to another knight of the Kingsguard, who unhorsed Prince Rhaegar in the final tilt.”

Dany did not want to hear about Rhaegar being unhorsed. “But what tourneys did my brother win?”

“Your Grace.” The old man hesitated. “He won the greatest tourney of them all.”

“Which was that?” Dany demanded.

“The tourney Lord Whent staged at Harrenhal beside the Gods Eye, in the year of the false spring. A notable event. Besides the jousting, there was a melee in the old style fought between seven teams of knights, as well as archery and axe-throwing, a horse race, a tournament of singers, a mummer show, and many feasts and frolics. Lord Whent was as open handed as he was rich. The lavish purses he proclaimed drew hundreds of challengers. Even your royal father came to Harrenhal, when he had not left the Red Keep for long years. The greatest lords and mightiest champions of the Seven Kingdoms rode in that tourney, and the Prince of Dragonstone bested them all.”

“But that was the tourney when he crowned Lyanna Stark as queen of love and beauty!” said Dany. “Princess Elia was there, his wife, and yet my brother gave the crown to the Stark girl, and later stole her away from her betrothed. How could he do that? Did the Dornish woman treat him so ill?”

“It is not for such as me to say what might have been in your brother’s heart, Your Grace. The Princess Elia was a good and gracious lady, though her health was ever delicate.”

Dany pulled the lion pelt tighter about her shoulders. “Viserys said once that it was my fault, for being born too late.” She had denied it hotly, she remembered, going so far as to tell Viserys that it was his fault for not being born a girl. He beat her cruelly for that insolence. “If I had been born more timely, he said, Rhaegar would have married me instead of Elia, and it would all have come out different. If Rhaegar had been happy in his wife, he would not have needed the Stark girl.”

“Perhaps so, Your Grace.” Whitebeard paused a moment. “But I am not certain it was in Rhaegar to be happy.”

“You make him sound so sour,” Dany protested.

“Not sour, no, but... there was a melancholy to Prince Rhaegar, a sense...” The old man hesitated again.

“Say it,” she urged. “A sense... ?”

“... of doom. He was born in grief, my queen, and that shadow hung over him all his days.” Viserys had spoken of Rhaegar’s birth only once. Perhaps the tale saddened him too much. “It was the shadow of Summerhall that haunted him, was it not?”

“Yes. And yet Summerhall was the place the prince loved best. He would go there from time to time, with only his harp for company. Even the knights of the Kingsguard did not attend him there. He liked to sleep in the ruined hall, beneath the moon and stars, and whenever he came back he would bring a song. When you heard him play his high harp with the silver strings and sing of twilights and tears and the death of kings, you could not but feel that he was singing of himself and those he loved.”

---

Five had been his brothers. Oswell Whent and Jon Darry. Lewyn Martell, a prince of Dorne. The White Bull, Gerold Hightower. Ser Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning. And beside them, crowned in mist and grief with his long hair streaming behind him, rode Rhaegar Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone and rightful heir to the Iron Throne.

“You don’t frighten me,” he called, turning as they split to either side of him. He did not know which way to face. “I will fight you one by one or all together. But who is there for the wench to duel? She gets cross when you leave her out.”

“I swore an oath to keep him safe,” she said to Rhaegar’s shade. “I swore a holy oath.”

“We all swore oaths,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, so sadly.

The shades dismounted from their ghostly horses. When they drew their longswords, it made not a sound. “He was going to burn the city,” Jaime said. “To leave Robert only ashes.” “He was your king,” said Darry.

“You swore to keep him safe,” said Whent.

“And the children, them as well,” said Prince Lewyn.

Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. “I left my wife and children in your hands.”

“I never thought he’d hurt them.” Jaime’s sword was burning less brightly now. “I was with the king...

“Killing the king,” said Ser Arthur.

“Cutting his throat,” said Prince Lewyn.

“The king you had sworn to die for,” said the White Bull.

---

“Ser Amory acted on his own in the hope of winning favor from the new king. Robert’s hatred for Rhaegar was scarcely a secret.”

---

“Not now,” she agreed. “One day. One day you must tell me all. The good and the bad. There is some good to be said of my father, surely?”

“There is, Your Grace. Of him, and those who came before him. Your grandfather Jaehaerys and his brother, their father Aegon, your mother... and Rhaegar. Him most of all.”

---

“Elia found it all exciting. She was of that age, and her delicate health had never permitted her much travel.”

Very good job.I will post some other quotes as well.

Jon accepts Longclaw, but he thinks, "Lord Eddard Stark is my father. I will not forget him, no matter how many swords they give me."

aye, and rubies.”

That interested Ser Hyle. “Rhaegar’s rubies?”

“It may be. Who can say? The battle was long leagues from here, but the river is tireless and patient. Six have been found. We are all waiting for the seventh.”

Mance should have let me take the direwolf. There would be a second life worthy of a king.

Time enough to cross the sea, to see Griffin's Roost again. To end the Usurper's line for good and all, and put Rhaegar's son upon the Iron Throne. =Not the one who you are expecting Jon.

All in black, he was a shadow among shadows, dark of hair, long of face, grey of eye.

When he touched it his black gloves came away stained with red.

"No one sees her ladyship unless the Longinch gives his leave. You come with me. Your stableboy can stay with the horses."

"I'm a squire not a stableboy," Egg insisted. "Are you blind, or only stupid?"

TSS

She might mistake him [Jon] for a stableboy and hand him the reins of her horse.

ADwD Jon IX

“What did any Targaryen ever know of honor? Go down into your crypt and ask Lyanna about the dragon’s honor!”

“You avenged Lyanna at the Trident,” Ned said, halting beside the king. Promise me, Ned, she had whispered.

“That did not bring her back.” Robert looked away, off into the grey distance. “The gods be damned. It was a hollow victory they gave me. A crown… it was the girl I prayed them for. Your sister, safe… and mine again, as she was meant to be. I ask you, Ned, what good is it to wear a crown? The gods mock the prayers of kings and cowherds alike.”

Also when Tyrion reads about Aegon The Conqueror,the man who had two wives,don't you think it's a little weird that after this Jon comes to him?The son of a man who had two wives as well,i might ovvereach a little bit.

[JonSnow4President]

aye, and rubies.”

That interested Ser Hyle. “Rhaegar’s rubies?”

“It may be. Who can say? The battle was long leagues from here, but the river is tireless and patient. Six have been found. We are all waiting for the seventh.”

Only because I feel like I need to know, I thought the guess on this was that Jon was the 7th result of Aerys' line.

How does that work?

1. Rheagar

2. Viserys

3. Dany

4. Aegon

5. Rhaella.

6. ???? (f)Aegon?

7. Jon

Am I completely missing someone?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Only because I feel like I need to know, I thought the guess on this was that Jon was the 7th result of Aerys' line.

How does that work?

1. Rheagar

2. Viserys

3. Dany

4. Aegon

5. Rhaella.

6. ???? (f)Aegon?

7. Jon

Am I completely missing someone?

Aerys himself?

So the line would be from Jaehaerys, with 7 descendants.. Jaehaerys, the man who made his son and daugher wed, to turn the 2 into a 7..

[BearQueen87]

Only because I feel like I need to know, I thought the guess on this was that Jon was the 7th result of Aerys' line.

How does that work?

1. Rheagar

2. Viserys

3. Dany

4. Aegon

5. Rhaella.

6. ???? (f)Aegon?

7. Jon

Am I completely missing someone?

Rhaego, Dany's son.