R+L = J v.109

[Ser Yolo Swaggins]

I thought the council wanted Aemon to rule, aemon declined, so Aegon thought it would be safer for Aemon to leave court so no one would try to use him against Aegon...... or something like that.

No Aemon chose to go to the wall himself, so others couldn't use him in a plot to usurp his Brother. It was his own decision.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Well, the issue you are raising becomes almost a "metaphysical" argument over the meaning of certain words. ...I genuinely believe that there is no other reasonable interpretation of the clues in the book about Jon's parentage other than R+L=J. If it turns out somehow that I am wrong, I will "bow to your greatness" in not being misled by the clues that seemed so clearly to me to point in that direction. But your skepticism does not affect my level of confidence in the prediction that R+L=J is the only plausible explanation for all of the evidence pointing in that direction.

I'm not making a "metaphysical" or semantic distinction. But the underlined sentence here is something we can more or less agree on. Certainly when you pull out all the evidence pointing to RLJ, and examine the ways all those discreet pieces best fit together to make a collective whole... then RLJ will be the only plausible explanation you see.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

No Aemon chose to go to the wall himself, so others couldn't use him in a plot to usurp his Brother. It was his own decision.

ok yes, i looked on the App. The council wanted Aemon to be king, (and they even said they could relinquish and absolve his maesters chain if he would agree). But he declined, believing he was meant to serve and not lead, and departed for the wall. So it wasn't technically Aegons decision. But it does say after that "Aegon V, sends his brother to the Wall with great pomp and circumstance, dispatching ser Duncan the Tall to see him safely to East Watch."

[UnmaskedLurker]

No Aemon chose to go to the wall himself, so others couldn't use him in a plot to usurp his Brother. It was his own decision.

Thanks--that was my recollection as well. But perhaps the original point is valid stated a slightly different way--Aemon went to the Wall to do what was in the best interest of Aegon V, and then left the Wall to do what was in the best interest of Jon. So the full circle idea of tying Jon, as King, to his ancestor Aegon V, through Aemon going to and leaving the Wall still has value.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Thanks--that was my recollection as well. But perhaps the original point is valid stated a slightly different way--Aemon went to the Wall to do what was in the best interest of Aegon V, and then left the Wall to do what was in the best interest of Jon. So the full circle idea of tying Jon, as King, to his ancestor Aegon V, through Aemon going to and leaving the Wall still has value.

Thank you, that was my point :)

[UnmaskedLurker]

I'm not making a "metaphysical" or semantic distinction. But the underlined sentence here is something we can more or less agree on. Certainly when you pull out all the evidence pointing to RLJ, and examine the ways all those discreet pieces best fit together to make a collective whole... then RLJ will be the only plausible explanation you see.

I think I am confused on what argument you are making here. Are you suggesting that while you I agree that "I" see RLJ as the only plausible explanation, "you" believe there are other plausible explanations (I just do not see them as plausible even though you do)? If that is what you mean, then I think we simply have a different idea of what it means to be plausible. Saying an alternative is plausible does not make it so. Theoretically possible is different than plausible (this is part of the "metaphysics" I referenced above). GRRM writes a certain way and has confirmed that he does not "lie" to the readers by having all the clues point in one direction just to have the resolution be something else. An alternative outcome will simply create plot holes and inconsistencies in the narrative--something GRRM would not intentionally do (although to some extent such errors are inevitable in some regards--but not so recklessly and not on the biggest mystery of the series). With that in mind, I do not believe that it is a realistic option for anyone to come up with any other plausible explanations for the evidence other than RLJ. While they have a right to disagree and have their own opinion, I think they are simply mistaken.

On the other hand, if you mean something else, then I am not sure why you think RLJ might not be true.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Thank you, that was my point :)

Just to clarify--I was never trying to undermine your original basic point (as I I think I showed in the post you were responding to and agreeing with)--I was merely trying to make sure I was remembering a technical point correctly regarding Aemon going to the Wall. Getting old sucks--and I like to make sure when I think I am remembering something, that my memory is working. :thumbsup:

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Just to clarify--I was never trying to undermine your original basic point (as I I think I showed in the post you were responding to and agreeing with)--I was merely trying to make sure I was remembering a technical point correctly regarding Aemon going to the Wall. Getting old sucks--and I like to make sure when I think I am remembering something, that my memory is working. :thumbsup:

It's cool, I had worded it wrong to begin with.

I have always thought there was much signifigance in Aemons journey to the wall in regards to Jon. Not only did Jon send him away after he had come there from Aegon's court, but the fact that the council was willing to absolve Aemon's maester chain to let him be king is clearly showing that the council could easily absolve Jon of his NW vows in the same way.

[Ygrain]

I came across something that I don't remember discussed before:

It was the biggest tree Jon Snow had ever seen, the trunk near eight feet wide, the branches spreading so far that the entire village was shaded beneath their canopy. The size did not disturb him so much as the face . . . the mouth especially, no simple carved slash, but a jagged hollow large enough to swallow a sheep.

Those are not sheep bones, though. Nor is that a sheep’s skull in the ashes.

“An old tree.” Mormont sat his horse, frowning. “Old,” his raven agreed from his shoulder. “Old, old, old.”

“And powerful.” Jon could feel the power.

What is it that Jon can feel? And how?

And then we have this bit:

When he brought the skull to Mormont, the Old Bear lifted it in both hands and stared into the empty sockets. “The wildlings burn their dead. We’ve always known that. Now I wished I’d asked them why, when there were still a few around to ask.”

Jon Snow remembered the wight rising, its eyes shining blue in the pale dead face. He knew why, he was certain.

“Would that bones could talk,” the Old Bear grumbled. “This fellow could tell us much. How he died. Who burned him, and why."

Now, with "bones remember", I think that this is yet another hint that we are going to learn something from Ned's bones (and perhaps even Rhaegar's?)

[UnmaskedLurker]

but the fact that the council was willing to absolve Aemon's maester chain to let him be king is clearly showing that the council could easily absolve Jon of his NW vows in the same way.

Great point. While I think it is possible that there won't be any NW in the end so there might not be any vows to be absolved from, if there still is a NW or if Jon in any way still feels bound by those vows, you are making a point that I think if often overlooked when this issues is discussed (I cannot remember how many times I have seen people assert that Jon simply cannot become King because of his vows to NW)--the GC would simply relieve Jon of his vows. And unlike Aemon and Aegon--Jon won't have an alternative candidate to put forward--Jon will be "forced" to accept the appointment. While I still think there is some possibility there is no king in the end, if there is a king--this is the scenario that seems the only plausible way it would go (it is either Jon as king or no one as king--I don't see a third realistic alternative). And the more I think about the clues of Jon as king, the more I tend to suspect he will become king in the end.